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    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    and will out perform most of the premier sport cars at a fraction of the price the Lotus Elise seems to be the car for for you. Definately a great track car. It beat the Porsche 911 by several seconds around a 2.5 mile track. Below is the LA times article on the car.




    I know tuned Lotus Elise with more than 200 HP and they don't beat a 911 on most tracks, not to speak about the GT3 or GT2.
    C'mon Nick, you can do better...

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    and will out perform most of the premier sport cars at a fraction of the price the Lotus Elise seems to be the car for for you. Definately a great track car. It beat the Porsche 911 by several seconds around a 2.5 mile track. Below is the LA times article on the car.




    I know tuned Lotus Elise with more than 200 HP and they don't beat a 911 on most tracks, not to speak about the GT3 or GT2.
    C'mon Nick, you can do better...



    That said, I'd love an Elise for days like this: unbelievable sun and a thousand miles of empty country roads out my back door.

    But I've never met a Lotus that would not require me to seek amputation beneath the knees. At 6'4" and 225 pounds, how could I get in this thing?

    By the way, Dan Neil, the LA Times auto writer and author of the above article, just won the Pulitzer Prize for Journalism, the first auto writer in history to do so.

    Dain

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    I think the key to comparing the Elise to the 911 is the track that is used. I drive on a very slow and tight track where light agile cars win the day. But, there is no way that an Elise with 200HP can keep up on a fast track with a 911 (hi-speeds demand big HP).

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    That much was clear when journalists tested the car at the new Barber Motorsports complex in Birmingham, Ala., earlier this month, where the screaming little Elise - looking like a hybrid between an anime frog and an Irwin Allen submarine - lapped the 2.3-mile track several seconds faster than a Porsche 911



    Which 911? The 2.7, the 993, the 996...? Was it a Tiptronic car? Was it a car equipped with standard suspension? What tires did the Elise use for this run? What were the track conditions? For somebody who just got the Pulitzer price, this is pretty "weak" if you ask me.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    For somebody who just got the Pulitzer price, this is pretty "weak" if you ask me.



    Agreed, he seems to know more about writing than he does about cars. And he's writing not for enthusiasts but for people who ordinarily wouldn't read or know about cars.

    The article is for entertainment, not for serious information.

    Dain

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    I have a passing acquaintence with Mr. Neil. He interviewed me extensively for an article in Car and Driver about electro-magnetic compatibility for automotive electrical systems. It's true that he has a flair for entertainment, but he worked really hard on the details for that article and it came out closer to right than most other write-ups in which I've been quoted.

    I think the difference is the intended audience. LA Times readers are not expected to be as technically astute as car magazine readers.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Which 911? The 2.7, the 993, the 996...? Was it a Tiptronic car? Was it a car equipped with standard suspension? What tires did the Elise use for this run? What were the track conditions? For somebody who just got the Pulitzer price, this is pretty "weak" if you ask me.



    I understood it to mean a new 911 (996), since it would be odd to compare a brand new Lotus to an old Porsche. I would also assume that the tires were OEM as supplied from the factories and that both cars would have 6spds, but maybe I'm doing too much assuming. Even if everything I assumed above is true, I still think the Elise cold beat a 996C2 on a tight course (like the one I drive on - my 73RS replica is 3 seconds/lap faster than my 2002 C2 there - short 1:17 time), but never on a fast course like the Nurburgring.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    The 911 in question is the 996s that are used in the PDE events. Now the reason behind my question for asking which cars are used for the PDE is now apparent. The track does not really favor a high hp car. Some of the same Porsche instructors were at the Elise launch and noted a multiple second difference in lap times. The Elise has a sports suspension option available, but I'm not sure which car is being referred to, because BOTH cars were available for test that day (most of which did not have the sport pack). Furthermore, many of the instructors used the stock package more often so that they could more easily drift.

    From a friend:

    I spoke with Zack Zarcadoolas, Rapier Racing and Instructor with the Porsche Driving Experience (PDE).

    Zack was one of the professional drivers who drove the last 3 days at the Elise Launch at Barber. Here's Zack's words...

    "I could, but won't, repeat all sorts of positive things you have heard before. What I will tell you that amazed Doc (Bundy) and myself was the car is 5 seconds a lap faster around Barber Motorsports Track than the Porsche 911 we use in PDE.
    I think that says it all."

    Sometimes there is no substitute for weight, or lack there of.

    - J

    PS: Zack recently passed away. Very sad news for Porsche and Lotus enthuisiasts.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Nick,

    Do you mind dropping me an e-mail at justincredulous@hotmail.com?

    Thanks,
    J

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I still think the Elise cold beat a 996C2 on a tight course (like the one I drive on - my 73RS replica is 3 seconds/lap faster than my 2002 C2 there - short 1:17 time), but never on a fast course like the Nurburgring.



    Who said something about a 996 C2? Maybe he meant a GT3, maybe a GT2, all of them are 911.
    And the best part: I really think that the 911 vs. Elise claim came from Lotus, so this isn't really verified information.
    Don't get me wrong, I understand that the journalist wants to entertain readers and pass on simple to understand information but for me as a car addict, this isn't enough.

    BTW: did you know that on a tight track, my Cayenne Turbo beats the SLK 32 AMG? And the SLK 32 AMG is around 3 seconds faster from 0-125 mph. Just an example...
    Another (better example): a 200 HP Lotus Elise tuned by Pero does the "Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs" in 1 min. 17,3 sec..
    The 996 C4S Cabriolet(!) does it in 1 min. 17,4 sec., practically the same time. We're talking about a C4S Cab!
    The 165 HP version of the Lotus Elise 111s does the same track in 1 min. 18,5 sec (for comparison: Boxster S in 1 min. 19 sec.).
    Conclusion: the 911 vs. Elise claim is a nice marketing gag but nothing more. Especially as long as there are no details available about the compared cars.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    1 min 17,4 sec? That doesn't sound so great considering Lotus's own Exige (hard top Elise, Yokohama semislicks) does it in 1 min 14,8 sec.

    Anyway, I still think that Lotus is more about driving feel and involvement than anything else. On some of the back roads in my county, power advantages are worth somewhat less than at the track. Porsche's real trouble will come when the new M250 and Esprit arrive.

    You may be right RC, but I don't think that it's unfair to entertain the idea.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    1 min 17,4 sec? That doesn't sound so great considering Lotus's own Exige (hard top Elise, Yokohama semislicks) does it in 1 min 14,8 sec.

    Anyway, I still think that Lotus is more about driving feel and involvement than anything else. On some of the back roads in my county, power advantages are worth somewhat less than at the track.



    Justin, the Lotus Elise is a fine sportscar, no doubt about it. And it is affordable too which makes it even more fun.
    But (light-)weight can't always do wonders.

    I give you another example (sorry I have to come up with a Cayenne example again): during our stay in Leipzig, Mr. Jochen Albig told us that the Cayenne Turbo beats ALL Porsches (incl. the Carrera GT) on the track in Leipzig when the pavement is wet (rain, etc.). I was pretty surprised to hear that because I thought that the Cayenne would slip much easier due to the weight and the wide tires.
    His explenation was pretty interesting: the Cayenne is so heavy that he puts so much weight on the tires in curves, he sticks to the wet pavement almost like glue. I couldn't believe my ears.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Yes, resistance to hydroplaning is wonderful to have as a safety feature as well.

    I remember reading your post about that subject. I suppose in the rain, traction and grip are at a premium. You seem to be as infatuated with the Cayenne as I am with the Elise.

    Luckily, we don't get much rain where I live.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    There clearly is a lesson to be learned here. Here we have a Pulitzer journalist reporting a story regarding a car outperforming Porsche and he is accused of "pumping the story" for entertainment value?

    Is it possible that there is a car on this planet that may be a better performer than Porsche? BTW, I believe for most tracks, this car with the minor modifications will beat the TT, Ferrari and Corvette Z06. Clearly it would not be in the same league as the CGT, Enzo or some of the other supercars.

    However, I would wager that a professional driver in a Elise would beat most non professional drivers driving a CGT.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    RC said:
    His explenation was pretty interesting: the Cayenne is so heavy that he puts so much weight on the tires in curves, he sticks to the wet pavement almost like glue. I couldn't believe my ears.



    That is true, thats why buses have less hydroplanning problems and under heavy rain they don't slow down as much as cars may have too, you can see it in the highway, at least here I do. However, this only happens when the road is very wet and there needs to rain enough for water to accumulate in the surface, and not just wet. Its just like the narrow tire and wider tire effect.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Is it possible that there is a car on this planet that may be a better performer than Porsche? BTW, I believe for most tracks, this car with the minor modifications will beat the TT, Ferrari and Corvette Z06. Clearly it would not be in the same league as the CGT, Enzo or some of the other supercars.

    However, I would wager that a professional driver in a Elise would beat most non professional drivers driving a CGT



    Of course there are better performers than Porsche out there. But I think it is the whole package which counts.
    Take the Elise: you drive it on the track, you drive it on the street and then you drive it straight to the garage. No real bad weather capability, no fun in the city, no real interior room (I drove an Opel Speedster Turbo...actually a rebadged Lotus...last year and my wife wanted to get out after 5 minutes), I could continue my list.
    And if you think I'm focused on Porsche only, this isn't true.
    Yes, give me 500000 Euro and I buy a Carrera GT. Give me 150000 Euro and I buy a Lamborghini Gallardo. Give me 200000 Euro and I buy a Lamborghini Murcielago. Give me 100000 Euro and I buy a Porsche GT3.
    A Lotus Elise is a nice toy for the track and maybe for nice country roads too with lots of twists and turns. But if you want adrenaline cooking, go for a Porsche or Lamborghini. Ferrari isn't that bad either but I'm missing somehow the perfection and refinement.
    I think the best example is my friend CR here on Rennteam.com: he owns a Porsche AND a Ferrari. If he wants performance, power and his blood shooting up his brain, he drives his 996 Turbo (and this baby is really fast... ). If he wants to enjoy a nice sunny day and a great engine/exhaust sound with his girl friend together, he drives his F355 Spider.

    And yes, of course. An experienced Lotus Elise driver would surely outrun a rookie Carrera GT driver on a tight track. But what's the deal, I busted a Viper a few days ago...in my Cayenne Turbo. This isn't a good example because it is a fact that most sportscar drivers don't know how to drive.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Part of the equation that has not been brought up is that the price of the Elise is under the regular Boxster with performance to the 911. I know the "package" of the 911 is the best out there ( performace w/ luxury ) I don't think the Elise will offer anything close to this, but it will be a large bang for the bucks. It would make me go for a test drive, I don't know if I would buy one in the US because of the dealer network is so bad. I will test drive one whenever I get the opportunity.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    I'll add some comments here. I have driven the US Elise and owned a Elise Sport 190 (track car) and an Exige (190hp, track car).

    1. The US Elise with sport suspension was in fact 5 secs per lap faster than a stock 996 with US Sport Suspension at Barbor.

    2. My Lotus Exige, with the same hp and 200lbs less, is faster than a stock 996 (sport suspension) at Road Atlanta. I can run a 1.42 with a passenger, a pro driver (David Murry) ran a 1.39 in a Turbo and a 1.38 in a GT2 (Source: Panorama).

    The Elise gearing (top speed of 150+mph) is better for a small track like Barbor than the gearing of a 996. On most larger tracks, the 996 would win, on small tracks, the Elise will win.

    If I could only afford a $40K car, I'd get one. The downside of Lotus is that you have to deal with the company which is a joke. Getting parts, service, and support is spotty and frustrating. I recently sold my Exige and will replace it with a GT3. I know the GT3 will cost more to setup and run, but at least I'll be able to deal with people that know what they are doing.

    Just my .02 worth.

    Roy

    ps. Zack, who was referenced above was a friend for the past 15 years. He died of a heart attack yesterday; god speed Zack.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    RC read the article again. The writer states the Elise is a blast to drive. It has everything including the sensual aspects. He also indicates it is the most comfortable race car he has driven (assuming your not obese).


    When it come to exhaust sounds, I believe Porsche fails miserably. My lawnmower sounds better. However, I will admit Porsche at least looks better.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Nick - have you heard a 996 with PSE, or a GT3?

    Appreciate you take delight in goading us Porschephiles...but to assert that Porsche fails miserably in the exhaust sounds department...is untenable.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Sorry to say that not only have I heard a 996 Porsche with the sport exhaust but I driven one. It sounds like an Uzi filled with farts. I have heard a GT3 and there is absolutely nothing remarkable about the sound. You must be referring to the GT2 which has more of a high performance sport car exhaust.

    The very best sound is the CGT. What makes it so special is what you are hearing is the ENGINE! That high scream pitch is marvelous. I have Tubi exhaust on my Spider and though the sound is glorious I would trade it in a nanosecond for the engine sound of the CGT.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    RC read the article again. The writer states the Elise is a blast to drive. It has everything including the sensual aspects. He also indicates it is the most comfortable race car he has driven (assuming your not obese).


    When it come to exhaust sounds, I believe Porsche fails miserably. My lawnmower sounds better. However, I will admit Porsche at least looks better.



    Nick, I live in Germany, not the US. Cars like the Elise are very common over here and as I mentioned, I drove the Opel Speedster Turbo with 200 HP a while ago, which is actually a rebadged Lotus, nothing else.
    Of course it is a blast to drive, especially for those who can't afford something else.

    Regarding the exhaust sound: you really must be kidding. The Porsche sport exhaust is famous for it's sound, there even is an initiative in Germany to forbid this exhaust.
    My neighbor has it on his 996 Targa and he wakes us up every time he drives away at night (he's a physician).
    The GT3 also sounds very nice but of course not as the PSE.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    I'm going to have to disagree with you here Nick. I've owned 3 996s, two of which were post-02 with the better sounding stock exhaust and I absolutely loved the sound. Very throaty and wonderful to hear under overpasses. I am disappointed with the stock 996TT sound however.

    But to each their own; believe it or not, some people even think the 360 sounds like crap

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Nick, the more the cylinders the better the sound in my opinion. However to say the sound of a 911 is bad is wrong, to say a diesel sounds terrible is correct. It just doesn't have the sound that you prefer.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    Tpup said:
    \2. My Lotus Exige, with the same hp and 200lbs less, is faster than a stock 996 (sport suspension) at Road Atlanta. I can run a 1.42 with a passenger, a pro driver (David Murry) ran a 1.39 in a Turbo and a 1.38 in a GT2 (Source: Panorama).




    And David Murry knows a little bit about driving Porsches very fast, especially at Road Atlanta.

    Re: For those of you interested in performance

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Of course there are better performers than Porsche out there. But I think it is the whole package which counts.
    Take the Elise: you drive it on the track, you drive it on the street and then you drive it straight to the garage. No real bad weather capability, no fun in the city, no real interior room (I drove an Opel Speedster Turbo...actually a rebadged Lotus...last year and my wife wanted to get out after 5 minutes), I could continue my list.




    For once, a topic I have a fair bit of direct experience with.

    The Elise is a fantastic car, but as you say after a while it becomes very tiring because you feel literally every bump on the road. The seats are so thin, the shock literally travels up your spine. You also better be pretty comfortable with the fellow sitting next to you, because you're going to be rubbing shoulders a lot! It's a not a car for everyone.

    I still hope Porsche bring out some more lighter-weight models in the future. I understand they are trying to compete with the big dogs now (600+ bhp Mercs) but a moderate weight Porsche would surely bring more smiles in the corners. IMHO

    -Daniel

     
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