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    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    why is it so often the innocent that have to die? What an unfair way to leave this world.


    --

    '10 Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    Judging by the comments of the police officers, I'd say that they are looking for someone (the GT3 driver in this case) to blame for the death of that woman (may she rest in peace...).

    The police officer says 160 kph would be the maximum speed there but there is no speed limit, it comes later. I know this Autobahn pretty well and I have driven there with speeds way over 300 kph without any issues. If the Autobahn was crowded however, the GT3 driver should have adapted his speed. Most drivers aren't used to extremely high speeds on the Autobahn, this is why I drive slower when there is traffic (more than two cars on the right lane and I keep my speed under the possible "limit").

    Why this accident happened and why he lost control is still unknown. The driver himself claimed that he lost control, which of course can happen but this also means he was way too fast. On the other hand, this is an Autobahn 160 kph are nothing for a GT3. Even for the 996 variant.

    Looking at the rear tire on one of the photos and judging by what a police officer said about the tire tread (almost no thread visible), I think that the driver is in big trouble because keeping the car "safe" (defined by various laws and requirements) is mandatory in Germany.

    That woman's dead is very unfortunate and very sad. The driver will face the full wrath of the German law because it is my experience that judges over here don't really care about Germany not having a general speed limit or what sports cars are capable of. If the judge thinks that this guy was too fast for that part of the Autobahn and the traffic density, the driver will be charged with accidental death or maybe even manslaughter. I wouldn't want to be in the driver's shoes.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    I think the 996 GT3 is a most dangeous car, and should be treated with more respect than subsequent models.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    reginos:

    I think the 996 GT3 is a most dangeous car, and should be treated with more respect than subsequent models.

    Smiley

    I think any car is dangerous when driven faster than traffic or road conditions allow and with worn tyres.  Smiley

    I am not defending the driver in any way, but that is a weirdly written article, suggesting that worn rear tyres are maybe a sign that the "car has regularly been driven at high speeds".  Smiley

     


    --

    fritz


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    fritz:
    reginos:

    I think the 996 GT3 is a most dangeous car, and should be treated with more respect than subsequent models.

    Smiley

    I think any car is dangerous when driven faster than traffic or road conditions allow and with worn tyres.  Smiley

    I am not defending the driver in any way, but that is a weirdly written article, suggesting that worn rear tyres are maybe a sign that the "car has regularly been driven at high speeds".  Smiley

     

    The article is very biased and relies a lot on what the police officers were saying, which of course are trying to build a case (a tragic death, a fast sports car driver...do the math). Bavarian police can sometimes be very...weird. I once passed a police car on the Autobahn A8 at over 300 kph. He was the only car on the right lane, traffic was very low. After a couple of minutes, I stopped at a parking to go to the restroom. When I exited the restroom, the police car was standing next to my car and one of the police officers was checking my car (997 Turbo). When I approached the car, the police officer asked me: "Rasen Sie gerne?" (which translates into: Do you love speeding?). I didn't really understand and told him that I wasn't aware that there was a speed limit (and there was none) but then he started to lecture me about the German "Richtgeschwindigkeit" (which is kind of the "recommended speed") and the risks of speeding and liability issues. I knew all this stuff but felt like a little kid getting a lecture from his teacher. Smiley My exhaust wasn't 100% legal (a bit on the loud side... Smiley), so I didn't want to get in a fight with that guy but I realized that police officers are human too and in retrospect, I think he cared more about what the car costs than road safety. He asked me what I do for a living to afford such a car and so on...go figure. 

    Usually, my experience with Bavarian police is pretty good though but not all of them have a clue about sports cars and some of them are just asses. Like other humans too. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    reginos:

    I think the 996 GT3 is a most dangeous car, and should be treated with more respect than subsequent models.

     

    Every car is dangerous as long as the driver does not have the required experience, even a Fiat 500 or a Renault Twingo.


    --

    I remember when sex was safe and motor racing was dangerous...


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    Very well said. kiss


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    Smiley +1 - but, what is an "experienced driver", when something like this happens ? Is it constant training on a track or daily commuting or whatever - as I read it the driver is 51, so I would assume that he has spend some time on the road so far. I reckon that most of the RT members would regard themselves being experienced drivers (like I do...), but, IMO such sh*t unfortunately simply happens. At the end, it is a very very sad story and I certainly do not want to be in the driver's shoes right now as you said before. The obviously very worn tires though are a different story...

     


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    d997h:

    Smiley +1 - but, what is an "experienced driver", when something like this happens ? Is it constant training on a track or daily commuting or whatever - as I read it the driver is 51, so I would assume that he has spend some time on the road so far. I reckon that most of the RT members would regard themselves being experienced drivers (like I do...), but, IMO such sh*t unfortunately simply happens. At the end, it is a very very sad story and I certainly do not want to be in the driver's shoes right now as you said before. The obviously very worn tires though are a different story...

    I'm afraid that the worn rear tires will actually help making a case for reckless driving against the driver. With the tires OK and no witnesses for his "aggressive" driving style (some drivers claimed that he had driven aggressively before the accident but most regular drivers mistaken fast driving with aggressive, so...), he could have gotten away without any serious charges. I don't see that happen now but if he is to blame, he should be punished. A human being died.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    I don't know how much it costs to buy a used 996 GT3 in Germany, but I presume it must be within many people's reach. Unfortunately, some people who buy affordable used performance cars, ignore the proper maintenance of their cars. The budget for tyres is sizeable amount in the case of Porsche which the driver in the news like many others seems to have ignored. 

    Someone I know almost had a big accident last week in a 996 4S when his rear tyre suddenly deflated on the highway curve at around 140km/h. On inspection the tyre was so worn inside that it openned up and lost air pressure. He thought that because there is no rain in the summer he could get fresh tyres in October mail


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    I'm still surprised that there is no speed limit in Germany. Don't get me wrong, I probably do 3-5k km on the German autobahn per year and it's nice to be able to drive faster. But a speed limit of say 220km/h for the currently unlimited parts would make more sense? yes


    --

    2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

    Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    993Targa:

    I'm still surprised that there is no speed limit in Germany. Don't get me wrong, I probably do 3-5k km on the German autobahn per year and it's nice to be able to drive faster. But a speed limit of say 220km/h for the currently unlimited parts would make more sense? yes


    --

    2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

    Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2

    Why? What for? Smiley Most accidents happen on speed limited roads over here.

    If someone cannot handle 300, he cannot handle 220.

    The problem is that many drivers of fast cars do not adapt their speed to traffic and weather conditions.

    I only drive excessive speeds when there is practically no traffic on the Autobahn, maybe a car or two along the right lane but thats it. I am also very careful when it rains, usually I do not drive over 160 kph when it rains but many many cars pass me at speeds over 180 or even 200 kph, which is just insane on rain.

    Also, experience doesn't mean much if you don't drive at high speeds all the time. 

    I also have to agree with reginos on the "older GT3 are quite affordable now..." theory. Many buyers may not understand the fact that a GT3 is a weapon and the 996 GT3 didn't even have PSM. So if I do the math, I'd say that a mix of reckless driving (the 996 GT3 isn't exactly your high speed Autobahn car), over-confidence (no PSM but worn off rear tires) and worn off tires played a serious role in this accident. It is just so tragic that an innocent woman had to die. Very sad.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    I am constantly amazed by folks who spend fortunes 'upgrading' their car with more power, better air filters, colour wrap, new alloys ...

    but then they but cheap tyres from China ..

    not in this case, but I'm staggered that folks don't realise that tyres are critical, and one of the most important things in a performance car.


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    My first hothatch was a Renault 5 GT Turbo. It wore Pirelli tyres when I bought it but couldn't afford them when they needed replacement. I opted for Uniroyals which were mid-price. This totally ruined the balance and feel of the car. At the time I thought it to be an expensive lesson, but one worth learning.

    The irony is that my 991 (and my volvo for that matter) have Pirelli tyres and I think they're awful!


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    bridggar:

    The irony is that my 991 (and my volvo for that matter) have Pirelli tyres and I think they're awful!

    F1 drivers think the same.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    sfo:

    I am constantly amazed by folks who spend fortunes 'upgrading' their car with more power, better air filters, colour wrap, new alloys ...

    but then they but cheap tyres from China ..

    not in this case, but I'm staggered that folks don't realise that tyres are critical, and one of the most important things in a performance car.

    I am even more surprised to see some owners put tons of money in performance upgrades but they never do driving classes to improve their skills (there is so much people can learn, no matter how high the skill level).

    Regardingt the tires, well...nothing new here. Many avoid N-rated Porsche recommended tires because they think they are a rip-off (tire shops are to blame here too because they tell that to customers because they want to sell what they have in stock, not special order items or items they do not get much rebate on because they order them in small numbers). It is no secret that N-rated tires are different but if someone can save a couple of hundreds of bucks on a set of tires, well...apparently the brain shuts off. Smiley Same goes to the state of tires, some people exchange them when they have almost no tread anymore, others even think that they benefit from the missing tread (which is stupid on regular street tires) and others just don't want to spend the money. I won't even start with tire pressure, this is a story for itself, especially when people go to the track.

    Brakes and tires, nothing is more important but... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    Well, I'm living aprox. 12 km away from this point of accident. I know this part of the Autobahn very, very well. In former times we always raced our cars to the limit exactly at these crossing lanes and believe me that was just half as dangerous as it may sound. You really can drive a sportcar with speeds > 250 kph without a problem.  I'm suppose there was a technical issue with the car and I'm sure something was happen with the tires.  I had one of the very early 996 and if the tires treat was at or under 30% the car tend to loose traction and slipping out of the track. Extremely dangerous at higher speeds. You can bet, this may be at least one of the reasons for this tragedy. 


    --

    Kind regards, Conny 



    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW Grand Coupe 650i xDrive


     

    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    bridggar:

    The irony is that my 991 (and my volvo for that matter) have Pirelli tyres and I think they're awful!

    You know, I'm not a fan of Pirelli tires. When I saw the 991 Turbo S for the first time and realized that it had Pirelli PZero tires, I actually talked to a source about the reason and why Porsche doesn't use other tire brands, like Michelin (which btw. I usually love). The surprise was quite big: My source didn't know anything of any issues with Pirelli tires, on the contrary, he even claimed that so far, only Pirelli met the specs for the new 991 Turbo S, the other two contenders for street tires (the Dunlop Sport Maxx is approved as an UHP tire) Bridgestone and Michelin didn't (yet). 

    So while for us mere mortals, the Pirelli feels odd and not really that good, it seems that for professionals, it is an OK tire, which I'm still surprised of... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    Perhaps the professionals don't drive in the wet. Or cold (sub 20 Deg). Or turn corners. Or need to pay for replacements after 5,000 miles.yes


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    bridggar:

    Perhaps the professionals don't drive in the wet. Or cold (sub 20 Deg). Or turn corners. Or need to pay for replacements after 5,000 miles.yes

    I actually think they do but I think they have a different view because they can handle these tires in a different (much more professional) way. This is why I always suggested that non-professional drivers get access to these cars fresh out of development to make their own judgement but I guess they leave that to their employees and their families for secrecy reasons but I'm not so sure these people would really show the criticism which would be maybe necessary to change something. Just saying.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    I think it is a simple matter of money and profitability. Pirelli must have made the best bid for supplying Porsche road cars.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    reginos:

    I think it is a simple matter of money and profitability. Pirelli must have made the best bid for supplying Porsche road cars.

    I thought the same too but whenever I brought this up, they actually felt quite insulted. So maybe this is not the whole story, not that they would really tell me though. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    RC:

    If someone cannot handle 300, he cannot handle 220.

    The problem is that many drivers of fast cars do not adapt their speed to traffic and weather conditions.

    I only drive excessive speeds when there is practically no traffic on the Autobahn, maybe a car or two along the right lane but thats it. I am also very careful when it rains, usually I do not drive over 160 kph when it rains but many many cars pass me at speeds over 180 or even 200 kph, which is just insane on rain.

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    The idea of slowing to a "mere" 100 MPH when it rains sounds so very foreign around here. I rarely see 160 KPH in the very best of conditions, but these posts do make reading Rennteam a lot of fun.  Smiley


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    RC:
    ... Many avoid N-rated Porsche recommended tires because they think they are a rip-off (tire shops are to blame here too because they tell that to customers because they want to sell what they have in stock, 

    The exception for me is the Michelin PSS which PAG has not N-rated for the 997. It is a newer, better tire than the N-rated PS2. That failure from PAG's part has left a bad feeling in many people's minds, people who do not skimp on appropriate quality tires.


    --

    _________________________________________________________________ 

    "Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    The PSS is a mystery . Many 991 test cars have been seen with this tyre , but since then no N rated has been out for the public, still very strange  

    I know many people who do fit this tyre on their  Carrera S, or Turbo .


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    ADias:
    RC:
    ... Many avoid N-rated Porsche recommended tires because they think they are a rip-off (tire shops are to blame here too because they tell that to customers because they want to sell what they have in stock, 

    The exception for me is the Michelin PSS which PAG has not N-rated for the 997. It is a newer, better tire than the N-rated PS2. That failure from PAG's part has left a bad feeling in many people's minds, people who do not skimp on appropriate quality tires.

    My suspicious mind tells me that Pirelli must have introduced a clause in the OE supply contract not allowing the N-rating of PSS, until a certain future date. No one will ever admit to something like this, so we'll never know


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    reginos:
    ADias:
    RC:
    ... Many avoid N-rated Porsche recommended tires because they think they are a rip-off (tire shops are to blame here too because they tell that to customers because they want to sell what they have in stock, 

    The exception for me is the Michelin PSS which PAG has not N-rated for the 997. It is a newer, better tire than the N-rated PS2. That failure from PAG's part has left a bad feeling in many people's minds, people who do not skimp on appropriate quality tires.

    My suspicious mind tells me that Pirelli must have introduced a clause in the OE supply contract not allowing the N-rating of PSS, until a certain future date. No one will ever admit to something like this, so we'll never know

    If that is the case... it shames the N-rating process. The signal PAG sends is that N-rated tires are the best for the car... If they leave out a trailblazing design (MPSS) due to partnering contracts, well...


    --

    _________________________________________________________________ 

    "Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    You guys are scaring me by saying how dangerous a 996 GT3 is. I have just purchased a MY04 996.2 GT3. It was mint, having done only 5,900km and never been tracked. I just could not resist as I have always loves the narrow body look but could not afford it when it was released. I have MPSC on the car which may even make it more dangerous! I will not be driving it in the rain then. 


    Re: 996 GT3 crash in Germany

    Drive it not only with your feet, hands and butt, but use your brain too and it'll be all good. And depending on your experience and skills, get some driver coaching/course.

    Congrats and enjoy it! wink


     
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