Crown

Leawood911:

There is a difference between superchargers and home charging. In Europe most homes and apartments have power I assume. Using this power to charge at night, off peak, is not an issue in most cases and this is how almost all charging is done.  If more is needed I am certain the will is there to make it happen. It might also lower prices to normal levels.  

France is planning to deploy over 100,000 charging station before end of 2021. On top of that, everyone can charge at home. Our electrical network is good. you can even have the choice to request single or tri phase supply from the distributor. The will is there now.

Any solution which relies on gasoline is a waste of tech and time.

Take this as a good example, before the next 5 years, domestic fuel to be used as home heating system will be prohibited in France.
 

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

Leawood911:

There is a difference between superchargers and home charging. In Europe most homes and apartments have power I assume. Using this power to charge at night, off peak, is not an issue in most cases and this is how almost all charging is done.  If more is needed I am certain the will is there to make it happen. It might also lower prices to normal levels.  
Any solution which relies on gasoline is a waste of tech and time. Useless complexity. A shit sandwich. 
Do you really think we should stick with gas because electricity is not available. Candles anyone?  Whale oil?  Buggy whips?  But I like the certainty with which some stick to their opinions. And software is simple to write. 
 

Petroleum will remain a major fuel source for the next fifty years.  If you think otherwise, you are extremely naive. 

CGX car nut:

Leawood911:

There is a difference between superchargers and home charging. In Europe most homes and apartments have power I assume. Using this power to charge at night, off peak, is not an issue in most cases and this is how almost all charging is done.  If more is needed I am certain the will is there to make it happen. It might also lower prices to normal levels.  
Any solution which relies on gasoline is a waste of tech and time. Useless complexity. A shit sandwich. 
Do you really think we should stick with gas because electricity is not available. Candles anyone?  Whale oil?  Buggy whips?  But I like the certainty with which some stick to their opinions. And software is simple to write. 
 

Petroleum will remain a major fuel source for the next fifty years.  If you think otherwise, you are extremely naive. 

Oh I agree. Maybe not for so long but you are correct. My slight disagreement is with hybrid or with thinking electricity will somehow never be able to do the job. 
At some point gas buyer will vanish like tube tv buyers. This transition is what makes life hard for current ice manufacturers. 

That’s only true for the First World.  Emerging countries will remain with ICE vehicles because the distribution/refueling infrastructure is lower costs than building up the electrical grid. 

CGX car nut:

That’s only true for the First World.  Emerging countries will remain with ICE vehicles because the distribution/refueling infrastructure is lower costs than building up the electrical grid. 

Sadly we invest in the first world and development in others is forced upon them.  They will face extra costs to maintain old gas supply lines which will cut into electricity production budgets.

One of the solutions will be to use the batteries in the EVs as virtual power plants  this will be especially useful where existing power grids are unstable and underpowered.  In the long run converting away from fuel will be very cost effective for the developing world and may be key to their survival.  

Leawood911:

 But it is clear that ICE is on the way out.  There is no denying it.  Hybrid in the long run is just double the complexity with gas mixed in.  Worst of both worlds. 

I still maintain that a hybrid system where the ICE is running as a generator to refill the batteries of the electric car is the best of both worlds. It allows you to have a small, hyper effecient ICE engine running in a narrow RPM band regardless of load or speed as that is dealt with through the electric side. It also allows massive range gains. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

Chicagoans can’t wait to get into a Tesla!  https://mobile.twitter.com/ABC/status/1292792653386584064

This store is located adjacent to the 900 North Michigan shopping center and the Four Seasons Hotel.  The Bentley-Lamborghini-Rolls-Royce-Maserati-and-Bugatti dealership was also broken into this morning. Huge swaths of destruction downtown and Near North with looting at almost every high street store.  That mayor is ineffective and people are quickly departing the area.  

the-missile:.........................

Take this as a good example, before the next 5 years, domestic fuel to be used as home heating system will be prohibited in France.
 

 

Just curious; is that a prohibition on new construction using that type of home heating ? or is it that and no replacement for existing systems ? or the biggie, actually requiring the replacement of existing functioning systems ?

Leawood911:

CGX car nut:

Leawood911:

There is a difference between superchargers and home charging. In Europe most homes and apartments have power I assume. Using this power to charge at night, off peak, is not an issue in most cases and this is how almost all charging is done.  If more is needed I am certain the will is there to make it happen. It might also lower prices to normal levels.  
Any solution which relies on gasoline is a waste of tech and time. Useless complexity. A shit sandwich. 
Do you really think we should stick with gas because electricity is not available. Candles anyone?  Whale oil?  Buggy whips?  But I like the certainty with which some stick to their opinions. And software is simple to write. 
 

Petroleum will remain a major fuel source for the next fifty years.  If you think otherwise, you are extremely naive. 

Oh I agree. Maybe not for so long but you are correct. My slight disagreement is with hybrid or with thinking electricity will somehow never be able to do the job. 
At some point gas buyer will vanish like tube tv buyers. This transition is what makes life hard for current ice manufacturers. 

It's not never, no one ever said never. Everyone is just saying the transition will be longer than EV fans wished. That's called reality vs pipe dream.

There is nothing hard transitioning from making gas/diesel cars to EVs. It's still making cars. The design room just have to use a battery module as the floorpan and build everything up around it, that's all. The only hard part would be getting stuck with billions worth of EVs that no one buys while they are cleaning out the stock of normal cars. The consumers are in the driver seat, not the manufacturers. IF the consumers are buying more EVs, car makers will make more EVs. Look at Ford, they stop making sedans as consumers aren't buying their sedans, why bother to make lots full of them and have them sit around? Consumers are buying their SUVs and pickups, so they just shift focus on making more of those instead. 

This is a simple supply/demand graph. There will be supply when there is demand. Governments with their subsidies are artificially inflating the real demand of EVs. Take out the subsidies and see how the real world reacts. 

Right now they are a small segment of the car buying public finding EV can fit their usage model, so they go out and buy them. There is also another small segment of people who are enticed by the government subsidies and bought EVs and try to fit their usage into the EV model. But the majority of the car buying public still aren't convinced, swayed, etc by EVs yet. 

It will take time. Normal car makers aren't in a hurry to force EV onto the public, as the public are still finding their normal cars more attractive and buying their normal cars and giving them income. They are simply just making what people WANTS. Nothing to do with 'protecting' ICE production. But alas, Tesla people wanted to twist that into the other meaning. 

CGX car nut:

Chicagoans can’t wait to get into a Tesla!  https://mobile.twitter.com/ABC/status/1292792653386584064

This store is located adjacent to the 900 North Michigan shopping center and the Four Seasons Hotel.  The Bentley-Lamborghini-Rolls-Royce-Maserati-and-Bugatti dealership was also broken into this morning. Huge swaths of destruction downtown and Near North with looting at almost every high street store.  That mayor is ineffective and people are quickly departing the area.  

I watched the mayor do a news conference. I think she finally sees that the protesters are not peaceful or reasonable. Good to finally see. If anyone thinks Americans will put up with this much longer. Well...

Leawood911:

CGX car nut:

Chicagoans can’t wait to get into a Tesla!  https://mobile.twitter.com/ABC/status/1292792653386584064

This store is located adjacent to the 900 North Michigan shopping center and the Four Seasons Hotel.  The Bentley-Lamborghini-Rolls-Royce-Maserati-and-Bugatti dealership was also broken into this morning. Huge swaths of destruction downtown and Near North with looting at almost every high street store.  That mayor is ineffective and people are quickly departing the area.  

I watched the mayor do a news conference. I think she finally sees that the protesters are not peaceful or reasonable. Good to finally see. If anyone thinks Americans will put up with this much longer. Well...

It is doubtful that she gets it or will ever get it. 

the-missile:

Leawood911:

There is a difference between superchargers and home charging. In Europe most homes and apartments have power I assume. Using this power to charge at night, off peak, is not an issue in most cases and this is how almost all charging is done.  If more is needed I am certain the will is there to make it happen. It might also lower prices to normal levels.  

France is planning to deploy over 100,000 charging station before end of 2021. On top of that, everyone can charge at home. Our electrical network is good. you can even have the choice to request single or tri phase supply from the distributor. The will is there now.

Any solution which relies on gasoline is a waste of tech and time.

Take this as a good example, before the next 5 years, domestic fuel to be used as home heating system will be prohibited in France.
 

 

Well, you didn't shut off your nuclear power plants.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Lucid Makes Tesla Eat Dust With Air's Estimated 517-Mile(832Km) EPA Range

That is the impression we get by looking solely at the range numbers, but we will never be sure without knowing the size of the 900V battery pack of the Air. Lucid claims the high voltage and other improvements helped the car be so efficient, but rumor has it its battery pack will be below 130 kWh.

Gladstone:

the-missile:.........................

Take this as a good example, before the next 5 years, domestic fuel to be used as home heating system will be prohibited in France.

Just curious; is that a prohibition on new construction using that type of home heating ? or is it that and no replacement for existing systems ? or the biggie, actually requiring the replacement of existing functioning systems ?

as crazy as it sounds, all systems to be implemented. Government will be ready to support up to 80% of the replacement cost for low income families.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

RC:

Well, you didn't shut off your nuclear power plants.  

Why would you want to do that? Nuclear plant can work safely for decades without emitting nothing else that vapor...

It is the best $ invested per KW regarding production, environment, foot print and efficiency.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

RC:

Well, you didn't shut off your nuclear power plants.  

Why would you want to do that? Nuclear plant can work safely for decades without emitting nothing else that vapor...

It is the best $ invested per KW regarding production, environment, foot print and efficiency.

Cause someone thinks in the odd chance something goes wrong, it will go very very wrong.

Whoopsy:

 

Cause someone thinks in the odd chance something goes wrong, it will go very very wrong.

Toothpick in wrong hand can go very very wrong.

Security and Operations procedures are in place for a reason. Of course if you allow dodgy countries to play with nuclear plants something can and will happen.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

Go gen4 nuclear!  Good stuff. Countries with bans on this type of power will quickly reconsider (barring bribes from competing fossil sources)

the-missile:

RC:

Well, you didn't shut off your nuclear power plants.  

Why would you want to do that? Nuclear plant can work safely for decades without emitting nothing else that vapor...

It is the best $ invested per KW regarding production, environment, foot print and efficiency.

Germany did that...unfortunately. Instead of investing in modern nuclear power plant tech, they shut everything off and now it is going to be very interesting to see how we are going to power millions of EVs without nuclear power. 

Well, we can always buy energy from our French neighbours, right? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

“Tesla sales plunge in Europe even as EV market booms”

(August 12, 2020)

Cranes and first pillars are seen on the construction site of Tesla's new European factory in Gruenheide near Berlin. Tesla aims to open the factory by the middle of next year to reduce supply bottlenecks...

Tesla's vehicle sales collapsed in Europe in July as the electric-car maker continues to struggle to match demand with supply.

Deliveries fell in all of the region's big EV markets as the U.S. company prioritized sales in its home market.

Tesla is losing ground in an EV market that is growing fast after European governments boosted incentives for electric cars to stimulate demand and reduce climate-changing CO2 emissions.

Sales of battery-powered cars in Europe rose 34 percent to 217,495 in the first half, according to data from JATO Dynamics market researchers. Tesla’s European sales were down 18 percent to 37,251 during the period.

Tesla’s falling sales come as more car buyers in Germany and France, the region's two largest passenger-car markets, are switching to EVs after their governments boosted incentives to stimulate demand. Their purchase subsidies are now among the most favorable in the world.

In Germany, Tesla registrations plunged 67 percent to 203 in July compared with the same month last year, data from the KBA motor vehicle agency showed. Total market sales of battery-powered cars grew by 182 percent during the month for a 5.3 percent German market share. Tesla's lowest-priced Model 3 at 39,990 euros is eligible for a 9,000-euros grant in Germany. Tesla's German registrations fell 22 percent to 5,306 in the first half.

Tesla registered just 119 Model 3s in France in July, according to industry association CCFA, after registering 620 in June. The Model 3 is the 62nd best-selling passenger car in the country through July, with 3,681 registrations. Tesla sold a total of 6,455 Model 3s in 2019.  Tesla was the only brand to gain sales in the first half, according to a report in the French magazine L’Argus, with a 7.5 percent increase over 2019. Sales of the Model 3 increased by 11 percent to 3,562 in the first half.

The least-expensive Model 3, which has a retail price of 49,600 euros in France, is eligible for a government-backed scrapping program for older vehicles. Tesla models are not eligible for a government bonus for electric vehicles, which applies to models with a price of 45,000 euros or less.

Tesla deliveries also plunged in northern European markets where green-minded consumers are generally more favorable to EVs.

In Norway, the automaker’s sales fell 93 percent. In Sweden sales were down 98 percent. Tesla’s volume dropped 94 percent in the Netherlands. The data comes from car sales aggregator Bestsellingcarsblog.com. Tesla doesn’t publish its own sales figures.

The Renault Zoe passed Tesla’s Model 3 to become Europe’s best-selling full-electric vehicle in the first half.

The fall in Tesla’s vehicle sales in Europe in July is due to the company’s policy of switching its limited production capacity to prioritize either the U.S. or Europe depending on quarterly timings, according to a source with knowledge of Tesla’s strategy.

The price of Tesla stock is very sensitive to quarterly deliveries. For example, shares rose after the company said its second-quarter deliveries rose to 90,650, beating analyst expectations.

Morten Grove, who tracks cargo ships transporting Tesla vehicles between California and Europe, posted on Twitter that Tesla’s first third-quarter shipment of cars for Europe arrived in Zeebrugge, Belgium, on Aug. 5. Another ship is expected on Aug. 21, Grove said.

Tesla is currently building a new factory near Berlin that should help smooth out supply and demand in Europe. The company is moving into Germany’s heartland to challenge Volkswagen Group, BMW Group and Daimler’s Mercedes-Benz as the country targets a huge increase in electric-car sales.

Tesla has said it wants to finish the factory by the middle of next year.

"The goal at Tesla seems to be to beat the construction time for the Gigafactory 3 in Shanghai," Joerg Steinbach, economy minister for the state of Brandenburg where the plant is located, was quoted as saying in the Welt am Sonntag newspaper. "According to my observation, this could very well succeed."

Link: https://europe.autonews.com/sales-market/tesla-sales-plunge-europe-even-ev-market-booms

Tesla may have issues selling EVs in Europe but no worries here, the other EV manufacturers probably sit in the same boat.  People in Europe are worried about their financial future. Many are currently employed based on the pandemic based short work regulations. Many are getting short-time work compensation, which is still OK compared to what they would get if they'd be unemployed. Unfortunately, these regulations run out soon and people will start losing their jobs and I assume it will be even worse next year, when many companies start to realize they cannot survive. This will get worse over the next couple of years in my opinion, unless EU governments take even more money into their hands and help out. Not so sure this is going to happen though.

The 3% VAT reduction we have in Germany right now is a joke. Not helpful at all in my opinion. They should have scratched the full 19% VAT for specific businesses which are in trouble, like for example restaurants or cinemas, maybe even the car business.

If you think the tax office is more generous now, well...think again: My wife earned too much in 2018, so the tax office raised the advanced payment sums and thus she has now to pay a back payment on the new advanced payment.  Corona crisis? They don't care. They say we are wealthy enough to be able to pay this now but the truth is that my wife had to move some stuff around to be able to do that, wasn't that easy. Additional stress, especially for people who are actually working in the healthcare system, taking care of people. For six weeks or so, her practice was basically dead, people were scared to visit a doctor. Then, it picked up again strongly and now she has so much work, she badly needs a vacation (and I do too, had only four days this year).

People here applauded for nurses, doctors, supermarket cashiers, pharmacists, police officers and firemen and so on but nobody from these groups got really anything out of this. I gave my employee a substantial bonus because we had three crazy months, lots of work (up to 1500 EUR were possible, tax-free) but most of these people didn't get anything more than some hand clapping. 

The economic and financial crisis is just at the beginning, people aren't too interested in buying new cars, especially not EVs.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Just imagine how high taxes will be once this over so they can pay for all this. This is the most perfect excuse ever to increase everything government does and charge more. Hmmm. This virus just keeps on giving - to those wanting to profit from it and control people. Hence some are not doing what they need to stay safe. 
The danger is that an overreaction, politically based or financially motivated, will be quickly called out and resulting loss of trust in the real medical facts and news costs lives. 

Leawood911:

Just imagine how high taxes will be once this over so they can pay for all this. This is the most perfect excuse ever to increase everything government does and charge more. Hmmm. This virus just keeps on giving - to those wanting to profit from it and control people. Hence some are not doing what they need to stay safe. 
The danger is that an overreaction, politically based or financially motivated, will be quickly called out and resulting loss of trust in the real medical facts and news costs lives. 

Actually, I think that many (like me ) will profit from the pandemic over the next couple of years but once the pandemic and it's (financial and economic) consequences are over, people like me will be hit hard with new/more taxes and other surprises. I want to be out of here before that happens but luckily, I think it will be at least 4-5 years before we even see a hint of that happen, unless we get a leftist government in Germany.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Tesla may have issues selling EVs in Europe but no worries here, the other EV manufacturers probably sit in the same boat.  People in Europe are worried about their financial future. Many are currently employed based on the pandemic based short work regulations. Many are getting short-time work compensation, which is still OK compared to what they would get if they'd be unemployed. Unfortunately, these regulations run out soon and people will start losing their jobs and I assume it will be even worse next year, when many companies start to realize they cannot survive. This will get worse over the next couple of years in my opinion, unless EU governments take even more money into their hands and help out. Not so sure this is going to happen though.

The 3% VAT reduction we have in Germany right now is a joke. Not helpful at all in my opinion. They should have scratched the full 19% VAT for specific businesses which are in trouble, like for example restaurants or cinemas, maybe even the car business.

If you think the tax office is more generous now, well...think again: My wife earned too much in 2018, so the tax office raised the advanced payment sums and thus she has now to pay a back payment on the new advanced payment.  Corona crisis? They don't care. They say we are wealthy enough to be able to pay this now but the truth is that my wife had to move some stuff around to be able to do that, wasn't that easy. Additional stress, especially for people who are actually working in the healthcare system, taking care of people. For six weeks or so, her practice was basically dead, people were scared to visit a doctor. Then, it picked up again strongly and now she has so much work, she badly needs a vacation (and I do too, had only four days this year).

People here applauded for nurses, doctors, supermarket cashiers, pharmacists, police officers and firemen and so on but nobody from these groups got really anything out of this. I gave my employee a substantial bonus because we had three crazy months, lots of work (up to 1500 EUR were possible, tax-free) but most of these people didn't get anything more than some hand clapping. 

The economic and financial crisis is just at the beginning, people aren't too interested in buying new cars, especially not EVs.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

 

Christian, paying estimated tax is common in most countries. If you fail to pay enough, you pay the difference and interest. 

Giving your employee a bonus is money well spent. 

Regarding leftist government, the trend is the lower income people are becoming much more in tune with the importance of voting. It's growing and ultimately will overcome the rich connections and money. What the pandemic did was to highlight that it is a poor person  disease.

Those that live closely together with low income dietary habits are the ones that are experiencing the deadly disease more than any other segments of the population. There are many more people in the lower strata of society and they have been made aware that the need to exert their voting power to change things.

When you're going through hell.....keep going.

I agree but my solution may differ.  Who is going make certain they have jobs, police, borders and more money in their pockets?
 But no politics here. 

nberry:

RC:

Tesla may have issues selling EVs in Europe but no worries here, the other EV manufacturers probably sit in the same boat.  People in Europe are worried about their financial future. Many are currently employed based on the pandemic based short work regulations. Many are getting short-time work compensation, which is still OK compared to what they would get if they'd be unemployed. Unfortunately, these regulations run out soon and people will start losing their jobs and I assume it will be even worse next year, when many companies start to realize they cannot survive. This will get worse over the next couple of years in my opinion, unless EU governments take even more money into their hands and help out. Not so sure this is going to happen though.

The 3% VAT reduction we have in Germany right now is a joke. Not helpful at all in my opinion. They should have scratched the full 19% VAT for specific businesses which are in trouble, like for example restaurants or cinemas, maybe even the car business.

If you think the tax office is more generous now, well...think again: My wife earned too much in 2018, so the tax office raised the advanced payment sums and thus she has now to pay a back payment on the new advanced payment.  Corona crisis? They don't care. They say we are wealthy enough to be able to pay this now but the truth is that my wife had to move some stuff around to be able to do that, wasn't that easy. Additional stress, especially for people who are actually working in the healthcare system, taking care of people. For six weeks or so, her practice was basically dead, people were scared to visit a doctor. Then, it picked up again strongly and now she has so much work, she badly needs a vacation (and I do too, had only four days this year).

People here applauded for nurses, doctors, supermarket cashiers, pharmacists, police officers and firemen and so on but nobody from these groups got really anything out of this. I gave my employee a substantial bonus because we had three crazy months, lots of work (up to 1500 EUR were possible, tax-free) but most of these people didn't get anything more than some hand clapping. 

The economic and financial crisis is just at the beginning, people aren't too interested in buying new cars, especially not EVs.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

 

Christian, paying estimated tax is common in most countries. If you fail to pay enough, you pay the difference and interest. 

Giving your employee a bonus is money well spent. 

Regarding leftist government, the trend is the lower income people are becoming much more in tune with the importance of voting. It's growing and ultimately will overcome the rich connections and money. What the pandemic did was to highlight that it is a poor person  disease.

Those that live closely together with low income dietary habits are the ones that are experiencing the deadly disease more than any other segments of the population. There are many more people in the lower strata of society and they have been made aware that the need to exert their voting power to change things.

 

It's just another form of spending money they don't have.

What's the whole point of PRE-paying next year's tax? The governments just want to get those incoming money early without paying interest. 

Governments in the world really need to change how they collect and spend money. They need to be more responsible, if they took X amount of tax in 2020, that means they get to spend only X amount fro 2021, etc. 

And if they want to spend X+Y in 2021, Y would be considered a loan from the citizens, they will need to pay an interest back to the citizens for the advance loan, either via a tax cut in 2021 for the whole amount or spread it over the next few years via a smaller tax cut for those years. Not unlike how one borrows from a bank. 

Now as for the trillions owed by the US government, well, they could always split that up to which party spent what amount and let that party take care of their respective debt. The senators, congressmen, politicians all said everyone needed to pay for their fair share, so this would be the perfect time for them to set an example, donate all their own money to the treasury to cover, plus start fund raising campaigns from their rich donors also. I mean, they said their purpose is 'noble', they should have no problem convincing their donors to help 

Unfortunately, the words "government" and "responsible spending" don't really mix well. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualized-how-much-revenue-automakers-generate-every-second/

Tesla 'earn' $780.06 per second. But that number includes the artificial government 'grant', the carbon credits, worth $428mil last year. 

Even lowly Suzuki, which left the US market a long time ago, makes over $1100 a second. Without government handouts. 

Tesla will one day be valued like any other auto manufacturer, operating in a competitive, capital-intensive industry... 

...imagine how Tesla results will look without the sale of 100% margin regulatory credits to competitors! 

Just drive a model3 performance - just once. What does most of this discussion have to do with the fact it is a friggin fun car to drive. I would say slot car rather than go cart.