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    550 PS Tuner war.

    Now that Ruf has finally completed their ECU/exhaust kit for the 997TT I would say that all the European tuners are now in.

    Sportec 550/740
    Ruf 550/780
    Techart 530/720
    FVD 555/745
    9ff 560/755
    Cargraphic 544/780

    Most claim they get 530-550 PS and 720-755 NM except for RUF and Cargraphic who claim 780 NM, wonder why that is?

    The other thing I wonder is how many were developed on an engine dyno and how many on a rolling dyno, any ideas.

    I know the RUF was done on an engine dyno with a very long harness and the ECU in the car.

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    great thread.. THIS is my big DUDE.

    for sure i will upgrade with a german TUNER.

    but i will do JUST ECU(no exhaust for while)
    and i want to choose the most powerful.

    ANY IDEA? what can i expect of power with JUST ECU?

    thank you very much!

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    i advice you to do it together (ecu,exhaust,headers) .. my car was just with ecu ..before 1 week i ordered exhaust and headers and i do the ecu again for more NM and HP .. if you want order the exhaust and headers before the ecu after that make the ecu .. i think with just exhaust the car will be faster from 200-330 ..and with just ecu the car will be faster from 0-200 after that the car with just exhaust and headers will be faster .. (my experince )

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    wich tuner did you chose?

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    9ff , but still i didnot receive the exhaust and headers .. but i advise you not to go to 9ff because of customer service but there products is the best for me specially the exhaust (quite ,loud) .

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    What do you complain about relative to customer service?
    Can you tell me more on this side?

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    every thing .. specially after sale service (after you pay they dont answer you) .. they told me they will send the exhaust after 1 week from the payment and now it has been more than 3 weeks and they dont answer my emails and phone calls !!

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Here is what I have on pricing and could do with some help on the two I am missing.

    Sportec 550/740 7,630 Euro
    Ruf 550/780 11,000 Euro
    Techart 530/720 ?????
    FVD 555/745 5,643 Euro
    9ff 560/755 ??????
    Cargraphic 544/780 7,995 Euro

    The value equation appears to go to FVD with Sportec and Cargraphic next and I imagine Techart and 9ff will be up there with RUF.

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    LAT said:
    Now that Ruf has finally completed their ECU/exhaust kit for the 997TT I would say that all the European tuners are now in.

    Sportec 550/740
    Ruf 550/780
    Techart 530/720
    FVD 555/745
    9ff 560/755
    Cargraphic 544/780

    Most claim they get 530-550 PS and 720-755 NM except for RUF and Cargraphic who claim 780 NM, wonder why that is?

    The other thing I wonder is how many were developed on an engine dyno and how many on a rolling dyno, any ideas.

    I know the RUF was done on an engine dyno with a very long harness and the ECU in the car.



    Personally, from the above list I would only consider Ruf and Cargraphic/RSTuning top grade. The other names are just 2nd best. Just my personal opinion of course

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    This is the package that looks the most exciting from RS Tuning/Cargraphic, 17K Euros, bigger VTGs and exhaust headers...... engine dyno curves:
    Note the "standard" curves are the "before" power/torque curves as tested on the RS engine dyno - no free Porsche hp there despite what many chassis dynos are saying

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    This is the package that looks the most exciting from RS Tuning/Cargraphic, 17K Euros, bigger VTGs and exhaust headers...... engine dyno curves:
    Note the "standard" curves are the "before" power/torque curves as tested on the RS engine dyno - no free Porsche hp there despite what many chassis dynos are saying



    Did you note how "peaky" the modified hp curve is around the maximum hp level? Thus, under full acceleration the hp output will vary quite substantially with each gear (and corresponding rev) change... Just compare this hp diagramm with the corresponding chart of the Ruf Rt12 which is kind of plateau shaped at the top end. The difference is quite striking...

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Did you note how "peaky" the modified hp curve is around the maximum hp level? Thus, under full acceleration the hp output will vary quite substantially with each gear (and corresponding rev) change... Just compare this hp diagramm with the corresponding chart of the Ruf Rt12 which is kind of plateau shaped at the top end. The difference is quite striking...


    I understand what you mean but I am certain that this is just because of the difference in how the curves are generated.
    The CG plot above does appear to be taken straight from the RS engine dyno chart which amusingly prints out in a fairly old fashioned way with plot points every 500rpm up to ~3750rpm then every ~250rpm thereafter generated by their Borghi & Saveri engine dyno (same a Ferrari F1 use !)
    The Ruf dyno plots look like they have been smoothed in some way and I wouldn't compare them directly with the RS sheets.....
    As you say above both companies are pretty reputable and if there was more area under the curve to be had before the peak one would assume RS would know how to get it ?

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Did you note how "peaky" the modified hp curve is around the maximum hp level? Thus, under full acceleration the hp output will vary quite substantially with each gear (and corresponding rev) change... Just compare this hp diagramm with the corresponding chart of the Ruf Rt12 which is kind of plateau shaped at the top end. The difference is quite striking...


    I understand what you mean but I am certain that this is just because of the difference in how the curves are generated.
    The CG plot above does appear to be taken straight from the RS engine dyno chart which amusingly prints out in a fairly old fashioned way with plot points every 500rpm up to ~3750rpm then every ~250rpm thereafter generated by their Borghi & Saveri engine dyno (same a Ferrari F1 use !)
    The Ruf dyno plots look like they have been smoothed in some way and I wouldn't compare them directly with the RS sheets.....
    As you say above both companies are pretty reputable and if there was more area under the curve to be had before the peak one would assume RS would know how to get it ?



    The thing is: there are rumours (from a highly reliable source) that the VTG chargers are inferior to classical turbo chargers at very high revs/hp. Thus, traditional turbo chargers might be more efficient at peak-hp level than VTG chargers. If true, this could also explain the shape of hp curve in the RS chart...

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Did you note how "peaky" the modified hp curve is around the maximum hp level? Thus, under full acceleration the hp output will vary quite substantially with each gear (and corresponding rev) change... Just compare this hp diagramm with the corresponding chart of the Ruf Rt12 which is kind of plateau shaped at the top end. The difference is quite striking...



    I don't understand the point you are trying to make. HP plots should always peak. The RS Tuning curve only drops slightly the last 500 rpms after the peak at 6200 rpm. That has nothing to do with accelerative power. The correct way to read the dyno is to see where the shift points are going to fall on the torque curve. At every shift so long as the rpms are kept above 3k there is going to be 200NM addtional torque for acceleration, with the bonus dropping slightly after 5500rpms. The additional torque provided under the new curve is tremendous and maintained (area between the solid blue and dotted blue lines) to the very end.

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    CGT1178 said:
    every thing .. specially after sale service (after you pay they dont answer you) .. they told me they will send the exhaust after 1 week from the payment and now it has been more than 3 weeks and they dont answer my emails and phone calls !!



    better to contact me in TechArt Germany! :-)
    I always answer emails! j.gezici@techart.de


    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Personally, from the above list I would only consider Ruf and Cargraphic/RSTuning top grade. The other names are just 2nd best. Just my personal opinion of course



    I agree. If RS-Tuning (Cargraphic) would start to work on their sales attitude (Gerhard Schmirler) and aftersales service (same guy ), they would have much more success.
    Currently, I'm afraid I would stick with RUF instead, simply because they have a great service (worth gold when you encounter a problem and ANY tuned car can make problems).

    One of the Rennteam discussion team had experience with Sportec, at first good service but lousy execution, always something wrong, after some time they don't care too much anymore.
    Why I don't mention the others? Take a guess.

    Btw: all those claims, diagramms and dyno sheets are worth...NOTHING. Put those cars back to back on a track at the same day and you'll have the surprise of a lifetime.
    I would also take CUSTOMER cars for comparison to make sure that Tuners don't cheat.

    Btw: the RUF 550 HP kit does 0-300 kph in almost 32 seconds as experienced by a fellow Rennteam member in his own Tiptronic 997 Turbo. This is CGT time if true.
    To be sure, we plan a little comparison between the Carrera GT of a Rennteam discussion team member and a RUF kit tuned 997 Turbo. Stay tuned.

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    To be sure, we plan a little comparison between the Carrera GT of a Rennteam discussion team member and a RUF kit tuned 997 Turbo. Stay tuned.



    Where and when???

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    LukasLuis is reporting a 0-300kph of 30.7 sec in his RUF 550 TT!!!

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Did you note how "peaky" the modified hp curve is around the maximum hp level? Thus, under full acceleration the hp output will vary quite substantially with each gear (and corresponding rev) change... Just compare this hp diagramm with the corresponding chart of the Ruf Rt12 which is kind of plateau shaped at the top end. The difference is quite striking...



    I don't understand the point you are trying to make. HP plots should always peak. The RS Tuning curve only drops slightly the last 500 rpms after the peak at 6200 rpm. That has nothing to do with accelerative power.



    Sure it does Would you argue that the optimal shift point is at max hp in case of the RS? Probably not, I guess...

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    You want to be able to ride the torque curve on each shift, preferably with no shift dropping below the torque peak (3000rpms). Since the gearing is unchanged the RS tuning car shifted at any point so long as the revs don't drop below 3000rpms on each shift. If taken all way to redline (6800rpm) it is still making 600NM(!) which is tremedous.

    When an engine goes flat on the horse power plot, it usually indicates that the system being limited by airflow (either the heads, intake, exhaust, or turbos) or fuel (injectors)

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    You want to be able to ride the torque curve on each shift, preferably with no shift dropping below the torque peak (3000rpms).

    Correct. I would only replace "torque" for "thrust" ( or longitudinal Gs) in this equation since it includes the impact of gear ratios, so... as long as the thrust in the current gear does not fall below the thrust in the next higher gear after the RPM drops, you are in better shape. On these cars , due to the impact of gear spacing, that optimum shift point is at redline most of the times irrespective of whether that is peak HP or not.

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    You want to be able to ride the torque curve on each shift, preferably with no shift dropping below the torque peak (3000rpms). Since the gearing is unchanged the RS tuning car shifted at any point so long as the revs don't drop below 3000rpms on each shift. If taken all way to redline (6800rpm) it is still making 600NM(!) which is tremedous.

    When an engine goes flat on the horse power plot, it usually indicates that the system being limited by airflow (either the heads, intake, exhaust, or turbos) or fuel (injectors)



    In the end, a car with a flat shaped hp curve (at the top end) will accelerate faster than a comparable car with same max hp figure but a peaky hp curve Don't you agree?

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    MKGSR
    I could not find the chart for the RT12 engine but the Ruf 590 engine (the Nardo) chart is below. This should maybe compared to the RS 598 VVT engine ? Both have ~550hp from 5000rpm to the red line.... and the VVT does the business below 5000rpm.
    I still say you can't compare the data plots from different engine dynos, you can easily see that the Ruf one is smoothed and not the same as the B&S RS point plot.

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    RS Tuning B&S engine dyno point plot curves:

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    I see the RS as an actual dyno graph and the Ruf as a picture from a marketing kit. I have dyno graphs of my engine from Ruf and they look like the RS graphs.

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    In the end, a car with a flat shaped hp curve (at the top end) will accelerate faster than a comparable car with same max hp figure but a peaky hp curve Don't you agree?



    As a general rule, HP determines top speed achievable and torque determines acceleration rate. Having a wider HP peak just gives you more options on how to gear the motor to achieve VMAX.

    Looking at the HP peak alone cannot tell you how the car will accelerate. The area under the torque curve and the area under the HP curve is more important. Comparing the Rturbo plots to the new RS Tuning plots show that there is more area under both the hp and tq curves on the RS car.

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    LAT said:
    I see the RS as an actual dyno graph and the Ruf as a picture from a marketing kit. I have dyno graphs of my engine from Ruf and they look like the RS graphs.



    Sounds like TB993tt is right then

    P.S.: Still, the claim from the very reliable source is: VTG is inferior to traditional turbo chargers at the higher end of the rev range...

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    eclou said:

    the area under the HP curve is more important. Comparing the Rturbo plots to the new RS Tuning plots show that there is more area under both the hp and tq curves on the RS car.



    Hmm, ceteris paribus, the area under the high-rev part of the hp curve is larger if the hp curve forms a plateau at max hp compared to a more peaky hp curve with same max hp... The lower rev section (i.e. the increasing segment of the hp curve cannot be relevant for acceleration times if revs under full acceleartion are always kept above a certain level) Thus, your argment confirms my point

    The right approach is to check for the rev levels for optimal gear changes first. On that basis you can derive the effective hp output along the acceleration process. Thus, you check which revs you are accelerating at and which hp output you have at those revs. The result will be fairly accurate in estimating a cars acceleration performance. This is the basis of my "theory".

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Hmm, ceteris paribus, the area under the high-rev part of the hp curve is larger if the hp curve forms a plateau at max hp compared to a more peaky hp curve with same max hp... The lower rev section (i.e. the increasing segment of the hp curve cannot be relevant for acceleration times if revs under full acceleartion are always kept above a certain level) Thus, your argment confirms my point

    The right approach is to check for the rev levels for optimal gear changes first. On that basis you can derive the effective hp output along the acceleration process. Thus, you check which revs you are accelerating at and which hp output you have at those revs. The result will be fairly accurate in estimating a cars acceleration performance. This is the basis of my "theory".



    Quot homines, tot sententiae. We are basically saying the same thing, just depending on where you want to look on the curve.

    Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

    I just tuned my all new 997 Turbo at Sportec in Zurich.
    I chose the stage 2 option and this was the result.
    The car is only 3000km, and should loosen up a little bit more as time goes by...
    Sportec told me that the power figures are often close to the 580hp level for the stage 2 modifications, and their stage 3 mod - which is still officially quoted for 580hp - is actually producing around 630hp.
    Apparently thus, the torque is slightly over their normal outputs, which they told me to be around 780nm.
    The car has now a really crazy acceleration, even if it has lost a little bit of its progressive response to throttle inputs.
    I hope the tuning is not too much threatening the car's reliability...

     
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