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    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    Awd is also much better during bad weather conditions, what you might not even think about in California.

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Be that as it may, another stupid question. In response to the 930 litigation, did Porsche introduced AWD on future Turbo's?


    Not for 17 more years after the car involved with the suit (1979). Two versions of the 965 (3.3L and 3.6L) were only RWD...

    Yes, there was no 930 Turbo available from for MY1980-1985. 1986 930 was first to come back...



    Why were there not turbos imported into the US during this time? At the time, the US was probably even a larger market for Porsche than today. Why were none imported?

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Why? The ONLY disadvantage of the AWD is weight. Why do you think that AWD has been banned from most racing series, because it makes cars slowlier?!
    And finally: drive a 996(!) Turbo at the limit and then we talk again about RWD on the Turbo. What do you mean that the GT2 is too "raw" for you? The GT2 is a "simple" 996 Turbo with a slightly different chassis and around 100 kg less weight. And I wonder why even professional race car drivers prefer to drive a GT3 on the track and not the GT2. Reason? You have to be the hell of a driver to be able to control the GT2 at the limit or to say it in a simple sentence: it takes a lot of driving skills to be able to follow a 996 Turbo in a GT2 on a tight track, taking in consideration that both drivers has similar driving skills. The worse the driver, the more advantage to the 996 Turbo driver.



    Although I understand your point of view, I am not sure this is the case.
    Purely from a racing point of view, the downside of the prepares GT2 is weight, compared to the RSR.
    I believe that for the same power output, a pro driver will always prefer the instant response of an n/a engine rather than a turbo one. But I am no pro that's true.

    I don't think it's a choice related to driving skills as old racing 911s of the 70s and 80s were turbo engined (935, etc.) and then became n/a subsequently.
    In terms of chassis, I don't know the exact FIA rules. Are you sure it is forbidden to enter a 4WD in the FIA GT championship?
    Problem is weight and correct me if I'm wrong, handlig at the limit. And those guys race at the limit.
    Interesting discussion though RC, I would love to carry it on.

    On the 4WD question regarding road cars, although like Fritz said, Nick's agenda is obvious, he knows the answer.
    Nick, you are Machiavelic and falatious!

    The 4WD basically allows the manufacturer to reach a much broader audience.
    The on road limits are far greater and the handling characteristic of the vehicle is proned to understeer which means safety.
    RC is 100% right, 99% of us will be much faster round a track in a Turbo than a GT2.
    The GT2 road car is not a race car, it's way too heavy for that (same for GT3 but not as bad), but IMHO, they make it more spartan than the Turbo so that is doesn't tempt the usual GT buyer (no rear seats, no sunroof, no PSM, no PGS, etc etc etc and of course, much more expensive) but the faithful Porsche driver who KNOWS what he's buying.

    Let's be honest, all Turbo owners are not like RC who exploit their machine. Half of them order their car with Tiptronic transmission, telephone, TV, sunroof, minibar, toilets, etc.

    I refer to Mr RS very judicious comment on the GT3 and GT3RS that flooded the second hand car market once their owner realised it wasn't quite what they were expecting.

    To summarise, I think RC's famous quote fits this thread perfectly:

    YOU get what you pay for.

    (Emphasis on the YOU Nick, You Not Porsche)

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    I think the main reason why Porsche uses AWD on the TT is torque. More than safety. And specially because the way a Turbo engine delivers Torque.

    Although moderns safety systems will be able to control a 997TT RWD with not a substancial decrease on driver security, they would be continuosly talking torque away from the engine. To maximize performance from a Turbo engine an AWD system should balance the weight difference.

    For example a Gallardo does not need AWD (as proven by the F430, Zonda, Ford GT...), but because they are Audi the HAVE to use it.

    About racing, I believed Audi won 7 out of 9 European Touring car championships the year they introduced the Quattro A4 Touring car. They were inmediately banned for the next year, having to provide a FWD version.

    And also in Racing, I am sure if regulations where not so tight they would have been using VTG Turbo engines for a while in GT racing. It does not matter how good the n/a engine is, the amount of power you can put on the ground with a turbo engine on corner exit is always going to be far superior than the n/a alternative. And with no-lag systems they would just give no chance to a n/a motor. That is why all regulations favour n/a and everybody uses them on GT racing. Le mans has been won by a Turbo Audi for many years now though.

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    Fanch...
    regarding AWD in FIA GT, RC is right, AWD isn't allowed. I remember hearing about something with the Audi cars, because they were @ a large advantage having quattro on their race cars. But anyway, if you really feel like finding out...
    FIA GT Rules

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    I think he brings up a valid point. I would much rather have a RWD TT...



    Why? The ONLY disadvantage of the AWD is weight. Why do you think that AWD has been banned from most racing series, because it makes cars slowlier?!
    And finally: drive a 996(!) Turbo at the limit and then we talk again about RWD on the Turbo. What do you mean that the GT2 is too "raw" for you? The GT2 is a "simple" 996 Turbo with a slightly different chassis and around 100 kg less weight. And I wonder why even professional race car drivers prefer to drive a GT3 on the track and not the GT2. Reason? You have to be the hell of a driver to be able to control the GT2 at the limit or to say it in a simple sentence: it takes a lot of driving skills to be able to follow a 996 Turbo in a GT2 on a tight track, taking in consideration that both drivers has similar driving skills. The worse the driver, the more advantage to the 996 Turbo driver.



    Not necessarily just weight. Controlability is different in an AWD car. Surely a lay-driver can push an AWD car more (which is almost surely why Porsche would put its flagship car which has commercial success in a safe platform), but a RWD car under proper hands is always the quicker and funner bet (weight and steering).

    Granted the TT does have a rear engine, so the rear-weight bias does not hamper the car with understeer like some AWDs...

    also, by raw (for the GT2): I meant a lack of luxury immenities. It's a spectacular car but by no means a daily driver like the TT...

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    Was there any AWD sports car when the 930 Turbo came out?

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    I was thinking that besides the safety point, the Turbo might have AWD to create a niche for the "real sports dedicated cars" like the GT3 and the GT2... (This with in the back of my mind the thought that it is all about selling as much cars as possible... most tyoes of 911's nowadays are designed with strategic/marketing reasons)
    -Joost-

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Was there any AWD sports car when the 930 Turbo came out?



    Audi Quattro (actually, I think it came out in 1980)

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    I think some of Porsches previous product engineering decisions were more based upon guess work, executive personalities making flippant decisions and feuds between Porsche and Peich family members.

    Did a 930 Turbo really need AWD? Yes, to lessen effect of sudden oversteer under accelleration when the turbos kicked in hard. It was very snap happy. When did they want AWD? Probably not when customers started to really complain about 930 handling. Porsche management is and was very stubborn regarding any customer or dealer criticism.

    Im sure that Porsche only really wanted AWD when Peich moved over to Audi and used AWD Audis to embarass Porsche on race tracks and in rally competition. It then took Porsche a couple of years to design a durable AWD system
    light enough for the 911.

    As for the CGT not having AWD. No one at Porsche ever claimed the CGT was a new safety car. When the CGT was in development Porsche had plenty of electronic nannys and ordinairy mechanical layouts to choose from to assure a benign handling margin like in the 996TT.

    But they werent trying to build a softy like the 993TT or 996TT. They wanted a hard core uber drama machine, so they made it one. That was the executive decision they chose to make. They werent trying to make a Porsche Gallardo or a V10 Volvo, only a extreme Porsche sports car.


    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Was there any AWD sports car when the 930 Turbo came out?



    Audi Quattro (actually, I think it came out in 1980)


    Well,that's what i was thinking..no AWD because there was no AWD systems for normal cars at that time...

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    Nobody about the strategic reasons? RC?
    -Joost-

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    strategic reasons seem simple: it broadens your market-area...

    An AWD sports car MAY loose a few customers who are very RWD specific...
    (1)but it gains bad-weather purchasers
    (2) people who like sports cars but aren't 100% comfortable with a 500hp RWD machine
    (3) and as Rafael from Spain most adroitly stated, its ability to put down the torque gives real nice 0-60 times...

    I find the AWD something like an ammenity which Porsche saw as reasonable for their customer base for their flagship

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    So you are with me, as I read from point 1 and two... wow, I think I am going to understand things!
    -Joost-

    Re: Can someone tell me why the Porsche TT has mandatory

    I AWD is excellent engineering masterfully intergrated into the Turbo by brilliant Porsche engineers. I wonder what Enzo Ferrari, who loved 12 cylinder engines, thinks of these 8 cyliner newbies from Ferrari? To bad Ferrari does not think much of their work since they only come standard with a wimpy 24 month warranty. Worse yet, they can't intergrate AWD into their machines like the engineers a Porsche and Lambo. I however, do think the Ferrari 430 is a great machine anyway. I, on the other hand, am not a creative engineer, but I still do not want to own a 430. Do the people on the Ferrari forum regret not having a full warranty or a car that Enzo would call a Ferrari?

     
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