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    Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Other than HP leakage, what's the difference between PKD and a Tip on a Turbo?

    The HP "leakage" from a Tip is how much approximently?

    Reason I ask is it seems the Turbo is soooo fast that a manual will be out of the question when PDK arrives.

    I currently think the present-day-available Tip is a better choice over manual if you want to get the most out of the car perf-wise.

    Why? because there's soooo much speed and sooo much HP that rowing thru the gears with a manual seems like it would be wasting time. Any Nurburgering Turbo times with Tip vs manual?

    Forget the "less involving" aspects of the Tip or PDK, because I have SMG in my M3 and the thing gives fantasticly fast shifts. THAT leaves you more time to figure out what's happening to the car and what you want to do about it. Lightening fast and perfectly rev-matched shifts in a turn are a joy to experience. No apparent problems with unbalancing the car because the resumption of grip seems instantaneous.

    Anyway, I'm thinking the HP loss with tip _IF SIGNIFICANT_ would be the only disadvantage with the Tip. Are there other disadvantages of the Tip compared to PDK?

    All of this assumes use of both trannys in manual or _non-automatic_ mode.

    Nebulous claim of driver involvement aside, do you, in your wildest moments of doubt, think the manual tranny on a _Turbo_ may be too slow and therefore a _possible_ mistake, especially when PDK comes around?


    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    In the hands of a capable driver the manual is faster than Tip under nearly every circumstances. The key benefit of the Tip is driving comfort.

    The key benefit of PDK over Tip will be substantially quicker shift times.

    Assuming a capable driver the Tip has the following disadvantages:

    - From standstill Tip is only (slightly) faster than manual with Power Braking
    - Above 100kph the manual is slightly quicker up to top speed (not much, though, just 2-3 seconds)
    - The Tip suffers from the slow shift times in manual mode
    - On the track the manual will always be faster (please note, that LSD is also only available for manual cars)

    My personal summary: if you are a capable driver and don't need the comfort of automated gear changes go for the manual. It is involving and quicker.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    MMD,

    you've got some wild thoughts going through your head lately. I already assumed your brake caliper colour codec was the summit...

    I have a hard time discussion about a gearbox not even presented yet. The most obvious difference between tip and (upcoming) PDK would be the number of gears. Just as on the automatic transmission, the PDK systems saps a certain amount of power to actuate. Put it that way, if the tiptronic would have a bigger number of gears the demand for the PDK system would be less of an issue.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    In the hands of a capable driver the manual is faster than Tip under nearly every circumstances. The key benefit of the Tip is driving comfort.

    The key benefit of PDK over Tip will be substantially quicker shift times.

    Assuming a capable driver the Tip has the following disadvantages:

    - From standstill Tip is only (slightly) faster than manual with Power Braking
    - Above 100kph the manual is slightly quicker up to top speed (not much, though, just 2-3 seconds)
    - The Tip suffers from the slow shift times in manual mode
    - On the track the manual will always be faster (please note, that LSD is also only available for manual cars)

    My personal summary: if you are a capable driver and don't need the comfort of automated gear changes go for the manual. It is involving and quicker.




    you are mistaken about shift spped of the tip. actually i am always amazed when i am pushing hard, how incredibly fast the shifts of my tip are......in fact, amazingly fast !!

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Other than HP leakage, what's the difference between PKD and a Tip on a Turbo?

    The HP "leakage" from a Tip is how much approximently?

    Reason I ask is it seems the Turbo is soooo fast that a manual will be out of the question when PDK arrives.

    I currently think the present-day-available Tip is a better choice over manual if you want to get the most out of the car perf-wise.

    Why? because there's soooo much speed and sooo much HP that rowing thru the gears with a manual seems like it would be wasting time. Any Nurburgering Turbo times with Tip vs manual?

    Forget the "less involving" aspects of the Tip or PDK, because I have SMG in my M3 and the thing gives fantasticly fast shifts. THAT leaves you more time to figure out what's happening to the car and what you want to do about it. Lightening fast and perfectly rev-matched shifts in a turn are a joy to experience. No apparent problems with unbalancing the car because the resumption of grip seems instantaneous.

    Anyway, I'm thinking the HP loss with tip _IF SIGNIFICANT_ would be the only disadvantage with the Tip. Are there other disadvantages of the Tip compared to PDK?

    All of this assumes use of both trannys in manual or _non-automatic_ mode.

    Nebulous claim of driver involvement aside, do you, in your wildest moments of doubt, think the manual tranny on a _Turbo_ may be too slow and therefore a _possible_ mistake, especially when PDK comes around?





    First, for me 997 Turbo is the real sports car with manual and optional LSD. Second, first gear is tall enough in manual for biturbo engined car, it hits around 68-70km/h on speedo... Third, TIP version is only faster if you "Torque Brake" it on every start... You do not want to do that...
    Fourth, TIP version is slower on the Ring and Hockenheim. How much slower on the Ring? Few secs...
    Here I will go little bit OT and say that after all "what's" and "if's" there need to be little bit of clarification of 997 Turbo 7.54min Ring time... IMHO 7.56min time of 996 Turbo was a "Dream Lap". Why? I spoke with some people and 7.56min is almost the same time as W.Rohrl did in 996 Turbo. And we all know that von Saurma is always(?) slower then W.Rohrl... Even Gallardo's 7.52min is achieved with optional Sport suspension, take them out and Gallardo is slower then 997 Turbo(7.55min)...
    Want a Ring king? Go for new 997 GT2! The only problem for you is that GT2 is a manual only...

    Regarding PDK... How about NO PDK on 997 Turbo at all.

    Markus already mentioned value of LSD on the track(and IMHO not only on the track)...

    Little hint for you-997 Turbo, manual with optional LSD, PCCBs, new Bucket seats and some new tires(NOT Michelin Cup's NO!) is weighting 1560kg and is faster then 7.54min on the Ring... Some German car press this autumn...

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    MMD said:

    The HP "leakage" from a Tip is how much approximently?





    For a rough guess you may have a look at these graphs:
    http://www.rri.se/index.php?DN=29&List=O-R

    BTW you can make a wish for a specific model to be tested in the future if you click the red mark at the end of the P-list

    I'm under the impression that the latest generation tiptronic is way more efficient than the older ones in terms of "HP leakage" (compare the 993 tip test and the CaymanS tip test)

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Other than HP leakage, what's the difference between PKD and a Tip on a Turbo?

    The HP "leakage" from a Tip is how much approximently?

    Reason I ask is it seems the Turbo is soooo fast that a manual will be out of the question when PDK arrives.

    I currently think the present-day-available Tip is a better choice over manual if you want to get the most out of the car perf-wise.

    Why? because there's soooo much speed and sooo much HP that rowing thru the gears with a manual seems like it would be wasting time. Any Nurburgering Turbo times with Tip vs manual?

    Forget the "less involving" aspects of the Tip or PDK, because I have SMG in my M3 and the thing gives fantasticly fast shifts. THAT leaves you more time to figure out what's happening to the car and what you want to do about it. Lightening fast and perfectly rev-matched shifts in a turn are a joy to experience. No apparent problems with unbalancing the car because the resumption of grip seems instantaneous.

    Anyway, I'm thinking the HP loss with tip _IF SIGNIFICANT_ would be the only disadvantage with the Tip. Are there other disadvantages of the Tip compared to PDK?

    All of this assumes use of both trannys in manual or _non-automatic_ mode.

    Nebulous claim of driver involvement aside, do you, in your wildest moments of doubt, think the manual tranny on a _Turbo_ may be too slow and therefore a _possible_ mistake, especially when PDK comes around?





    First, for me 997 Turbo is the real sports car with manual and optional LSD. Second, first gear is tall enough in manual for biturbo engined car, it hits around 68-70km/h on speedo... Third, TIP version is only faster if you "Torque Brake" it on every start... You do not want to do that...
    Fourth, TIP version is slower on the Ring and Hockenheim. How much slower on the Ring? Few secs...
    Here I will go little bit OT and say that after all "what's" and "if's" there need to be little bit of clarification of 997 Turbo 7.54min Ring time... IMHO 7.56min time of 996 Turbo was a "Dream Lap". Why? I spoke with some people and 7.56min is almost the same time as W.Rohrl did in 996 Turbo. And we all know that von Saurma is always(?) slower then W.Rohrl... Even Gallardo's 7.52min is achieved with optional Sport suspension, take them out and Gallardo is slower then 997 Turbo(7.55min)...
    Want a Ring king? Go for new 997 GT2! The only problem for you is that GT2 is a manual only...

    Regarding PDK... How about NO PDK on 997 Turbo at all.

    Markus already mentioned value of LSD on the track(and IMHO not only on the track)...

    Little hint for you-997 Turbo, manual with optional LSD, PCCBs, new Bucket seats and some new tires(NOT Michelin Cup's NO!) is weighting 1560kg and is faster then 7.54min on the Ring... Some German car press this autumn...



    Great post.
    I know this probably isn't what you're referring to Re: LSD not ONLY on the track but when I read some of the Porsche information and they were referring to the LSD working in places of limited traction conditions the first thing that came to mind was ice. I know the LSD is mainly meant for track type driving but in my area during the winter I'm often in spots where ice or even black ice is on the road. I don't plan to use my Turbo in snow when I can help it but I'm quite certain I may be using it often when there is still some leftover ice on the roads. Dun no just worth mentioning imo because some people say LSD only makes a difference on the track.

    IMO, Turbo 6-speed, LSD & PCCB's is the combo. The new race buckets I think are more suited to the track focused GT2 or GT3 and not so much to the Turbo, especially not the Turbo Cab but I bet they'd still be fun to own even in a Turbo.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    but guys, is there any news on when PDK will be available?

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    i think the key advantage of the pdk syst is that you do not have any interruption of power delivery when shifting (in autom.mode or manual shifting)its one power surge during acceleration and less power loss in the transmission compaired with an autom. transm.it has all the advantages of a manual and auto box and not the disadvantages. check out the audi syst. data faster acc. and more fuel efficient so it should outperform the auto.box

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    intouch1 said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    In the hands of a capable driver the manual is faster than Tip under nearly every circumstances. The key benefit of the Tip is driving comfort.

    The key benefit of PDK over Tip will be substantially quicker shift times.

    Assuming a capable driver the Tip has the following disadvantages:

    - From standstill Tip is only (slightly) faster than manual with Power Braking
    - Above 100kph the manual is slightly quicker up to top speed (not much, though, just 2-3 seconds)
    - The Tip suffers from the slow shift times in manual mode
    - On the track the manual will always be faster (please note, that LSD is also only available for manual cars)

    My personal summary: if you are a capable driver and don't need the comfort of automated gear changes go for the manual. It is involving and quicker.




    you are mistaken about shift spped of the tip. actually i am always amazed when i am pushing hard, how incredibly fast the shifts of my tip are......in fact, amazingly fast !!



    You are probably relating to automated shifts, right? I was talking about the manual shifts (via the steering wheel buttons)

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    I had SMG on my previous M3 and a loved it as it was a far more capable transmission than I would ever be with a manual transmission. That being said, when I bought my TT, there was no question in my mind, I wanted a 6speed as I missed it and have not looked back. However, if I still lived in LA, no way would a 6 speed be my daily driver.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    intouch1 said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    In the hands of a capable driver the manual is faster than Tip under nearly every circumstances. The key benefit of the Tip is driving comfort.

    The key benefit of PDK over Tip will be substantially quicker shift times.

    Assuming a capable driver the Tip has the following disadvantages:

    - From standstill Tip is only (slightly) faster than manual with Power Braking
    - Above 100kph the manual is slightly quicker up to top speed (not much, though, just 2-3 seconds)
    - The Tip suffers from the slow shift times in manual mode
    - On the track the manual will always be faster (please note, that LSD is also only available for manual cars)

    My personal summary: if you are a capable driver and don't need the comfort of automated gear changes go for the manual. It is involving and quicker.




    you are mistaken about shift spped of the tip. actually i am always amazed when i am pushing hard, how incredibly fast the shifts of my tip are......in fact, amazingly fast !!



    You are probably relating to automated shifts, right? I was talking about the manual shifts (via the steering wheel buttons)



    yes, i am referring to auto-shifts in sport mode...

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    I wanted a 6speed as I missed it.



    Bingo. We will always have other cars in our garage, but the 911 is best in manual form, even though it may not be the fastest (on paper), but why should we put so much weight on those (ring) numbers anyway as they don't affect our daily driving at all.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    MMD,

    I'm also a tip owner and agree with most of what you stated, particularly the concept of "involving" driving. When you drive this car everyday, sometimes in hours of bumper to bumper traffic, there is simply no other way to travel. Any perceived/actual power loss from shifting is, as a practical matter, a joke. I invariably drive with the sport button on in drive (almost never in manual) and quite frankly this "slush box" holds its own or makes a mockery out of all (non-modified) challengers to date (including an e-gear Murcielago, F430, AMG cars, Saleen Mustangs and assorted Corvettes). I will say that one very well driven Z06 gave me a run for my money, but the auto box was never a cause of concern let alone a loss. I truly believe that almost all of the negative comments against the tip are from those individuals with little or no real seat time in the car. I often disagree with what the moderator RC states, but his comments vis a viz the tip are critical. Specifically, RC stated that as an owner (regardless of tranny type) you must learn how to use the car prior to modding it. Most of us will NEVER ever be able to use the juice that the tip has at its beckon call in stock form. In any event, before lambasting the tip I would respectfully recommend that you get some real seat time with her. In the hands of an experienced pilot she is an extraordinary beast. If after spending a 1000 miles with the tip you still want a 6 speed with LSD - go for it ! Anyway, those are my thoughts.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Tortesg1,

    I agree, you need significant seat time with both to make the call. BTW I have the manual.

    Mike

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Up to the driver. Performance wise it is quite similar.

    They did a hell of a marketing job on the Tip (before PDK comes out) to make sure they sell, if you know what i mean.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Nebulous claim of driver involvement aside, do you, in your wildest moments of doubt, think the manual tranny on a _Turbo_ may be too slow and therefore a _possible_ mistake, especially when PDK comes around?





    IMO, it is the Tip, not the manual, that will quickly become Obsolete with a capital "O" when PDK is released.

    Yes, manual shifting is the older, more "archaic" method of shifting gears, but it still offers something that neither PDK nor tiptronic can match. OTOH, the tiptronic offers no advantage whatsoever over PDK.

    I have an Audi A3 with DSG. Granted, these are very different cars, but DSG, as great at it is, still does not compete with a manual in terms of driver involvement. I would have my Audi with a manual if I could. OTOH, I wouldn't trade DSG for tiptronic on your life.

    Hence, to me, 6-spd manual > PDK > Tiptronic.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    mawyatt said:
    Tortesg1,

    I agree, you need significant seat time with both to make the call. BTW I have the manual.

    Mike



    Absolutely!

    Performance wise, IMO it's a wash. I recall reading that the Tip was actually 1+ seconds faster from 0-150mph - but probably lost that advantage on the way to its top speed.

    IMO, PDK would be the ideal choice, however, I'm sure many will still want a 6-speed.

    Let's hope the PDK arrives within the next 3 years.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Couple of points:

    A professional driver might be able to get faster laps with a 6 speeed but to be honest how many of us are up to that caliber (as much as each of us would like to believe)?

    As a side question, how many people with the 6 speed heel and toe / rev-match 100% of the time? Ever stay in a non-optimal gear due to laziness in shifting?


    It's my understanding that the tip is able to maintain boost in between shifts while the 6 speed obviously can't.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    turbonator said:
    Couple of points:

    A professional driver might be able to get faster laps with a 6 speeed but to be honest how many of us are up to that caliber (as much as each of us would like to believe)?

    As a side question, how many people with the 6 speed heel and toe / rev-match 100% of the time? Ever stay in a non-optimal gear due to laziness in shifting?


    It's my understanding that the tip is able to maintain boost in between shifts while the 6 speed obviously can't.




    In full agreement. And this comes from someone who always had a manual car in his garage. Time is soon coming when that old system no longer makes sense. I hear diehards claiming involvement... I predict that involvement will shift to proper steering and braking.

    The PDK is the future but the current Tip-S is not too shabby either.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Era of Luddite manual is rapidly ending....such codgerly gearboxes don't seem compatible w/latest-tech active chassis damping, stab ctrls, etc....from what I gather, F is already unable to successfully synch its various, networked 599 chassis computers w/the few Luddite-manual 599s it has built to-date....

    PDK is a fantasy until it arrives and is eval'd in real-world conds by actual owners/drivers, not infomercial-producing journalists....if/when PDK arrives for 997TT, will be compared to then-latest tech F gearbox re: various parameters, incl shiftspeeds/smoothness/durability vs aggressive mtn twisties shifting/steep hills/urban commute duty, etc etc....599's gearbox sets a high std to beat, whether eval'd in mtn twisties or stop-and-go grind in flat BeverlyHills office corridor or on steep hills from SF's financial dt leading up to residential PacHts....

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    turbonator said:
    Couple of points:

    A professional driver might be able to get faster laps with a 6 speeed but to be honest how many of us are up to that caliber (as much as each of us would like to believe)?

    As a side question, how many people with the 6 speed heel and toe / rev-match 100% of the time? Ever stay in a non-optimal gear due to laziness in shifting?


    It's my understanding that the tip is able to maintain boost in between shifts while the 6 speed obviously can't.




    In full agreement. And this comes from someone who always had a manual car in his garage. Time is soon coming when that old system no longer makes sense. I hear diehards claiming involvement... [...]



    That is the moment when those enthusiasts start driving vintage cars.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Time is soon coming when that old system no longer makes sense. I hear diehards claiming involvement... [...]



    That is the moment when those enthusiasts start driving vintage cars.



    LOL. Clever and funny. I gotta remember that one.

    Re: Tip on Turbo vs. PDK on Turbo

    Turbonator,

    In my tip, I always stay on boost AND I never miss a shift. Recently, a "faster" (at a minimum, much more expensive) orange Murcielago 6 speed missed a shift and I decimated him. Quite frankly, the tip makes mediocre drivers like myself look more competent than we really are. I truly can't wait to start modding my car. I figure at around 10K miles she'll be (and me too) ready (I'm closing in on 2900 miles and I took delivery on 6/7). Get the tip and don't look back. Worry about PDK for the 2012 model when it is "somewhat" perfected by Stuggart (it'll probably take 10 years plus to really perfect it). BTW, if you or ANYBODY on this listserve can use ALL that the tip offers, I'd be shocked. Try to get some real seat time in a friends before making a decision.

     
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