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    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    IF Vettel accelerated through the grass then indeed he did not try to regain control and should be penalized. I have not seen anything written about hat though, everything written said his re-entry was beyond his control. Someone has the telemetry frown


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    SciFrog:

    IF Vettel accelerated through the grass then indeed he did not try to regain control and should be penalized. I have not seen anything written about hat though, everything written said his re-entry was beyond his control. Someone has the telemetry frown

     

    Yes, the stewards has and had examined everything.

    The penalty is for unsafe re-entry onto the circuit, and whether someone has control or not with their car is not part of the consideration. 

    The only time the a penalty may to bee accessed is when someone went off and there are no cars around and needed to take evasive action to avoid contact. And in this case, he wasn't alone and Hamilton had to brake hard to avoid contact. It's pretty black and white.

     


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    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Well then IF they have this telemetry proving Vettel acted while he was off the grass in a way that it created an unsafe re-entry, where is it? Why have they not communicated about it? This would be really poor handling of major decisive elements.


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    No point to discuss anymore on this .

    Mercedes should win all the 2019 remaining race.

    Hamilton is the new global "politically correct" hero and Vettel has to be punished accordingly every time he tries to fight against the plan .( with an inferior car )

    The Schumacher era ( Ferrari) should be erased by the new invincible armada aka Mercedes .

    History in the making.


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Strict ad hoc and based on a whim enforcement of the rules and regulations of Formula One is why last Sunday's race will be the last one I will watch for a while.  The real action is at the rules setting committee table and possibly at qualifying.  Other than that, race day is nothing more than pageantry followed with a parade.   

    It is easy to make calls from the comforts of the sofa but as I watched Vettel skittle across the grass and Hamilton take the racing line, I thought a better course of action for Hamilton was to brake and move to the inside of Vettel.  In simple physics, Vettel was going to use most of the track as he came off the grass infield and would leave the area closest to that infield open.


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    SciFrog:

    Well then IF they have this telemetry proving Vettel acted while he was off the grass in a way that it created an unsafe re-entry, where is it? Why have they not communicated about it? This would be really poor handling of major decisive elements.

     

    There is no IF.

    Data isn't released to the public doesn't mean there isn't data. The stewards based their decisions on reviewing the data, especially the bit about Hamilton having to brake to avoid contact. To see the data, it was simply a case of walking into the Ferrari and Mercedes pits and watch a recording.

    At the end of the day, the data are part of Ferrari and Mercedes' intellectual property, they are under no obligation to release them to the general public. 

    It's not a NBA or a NHL game where 'data' is public domain. Even in NHL games there are camera angles that are not broadcasted and are only for situation room review purposes. 

    And in this case it's a clear cut black and white situation, Vettel did re-enter the track in a unsafe way ad almost caused an accident, as seen by millions of people. 

     


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    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    OK forget the data then (although Throttle position used to be broadcast on TV). They did not explain why they imposed a controversial penalty.


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    SciFrog:

    OK forget the data then (although Throttle position used to be broadcast on TV). They did not explain why they imposed a controversial penalty.

     

    It was already released to the public on Sunday, no one bother to read it before sounding offSmiley

    https://www.fia.com/documents

     

    The Stewards, having received a report from the Race Director, have considered the following matter and determine the following:

    No / Driver: 5 - Sebastian Vettel

    Competitor: Scuderia Ferrari

    Time: 15:13

    Session: Race

    Fact: Car 5 left the track, re-joined unsafely and forced another car off track.

    Offence: Involved in an incident as defined by Article 38.1 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.

    Decision: 5 second time penalty (2 point awarded, 7 points in total for the 12 month period).

    Reason: The stewards reviewed video evidence and determined that Car 5, left the track at turn 3, rejoined the track at turn 4 in an unsafe manner and forced car 44 off track. Car 44 had to take evasive action to avoid a collision.

    Competitors are reminded that they have the right to appeal certain decisions of the Stewards, in accordance with Article 15 of the FIA International Sporting Code and Article 9.1.1 of the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules, within the applicable time limits.


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    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    They above does not have any justification whatsoever, thank you for that...


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    page1image51252480page1image51254976

    2019 CANADIAN GRAND PRIX 6 - 9 June 2019

    From The Stewards Document 31

    To The Team Manager, Date 08 June 2019

    Scuderia Ferrari

    Time 18:12

    The Stewards, having received a report from the Race Director, have considered the following matter and determine the following:

    No / Driver Competitor Time Session Fact

    Offence Decision

    Reason

    16 - Charles Leclerc Scuderia Ferrari 14:27
    Qualifying

    Car 16 went to the right of the bollard at turn 9 contrary to the Race Directors Note no 9.1 (document 2).

    Breach of Article 12.1.1.i of the FIA International Sporting Code.

    Deletion of the relevant lap time (in accordance with Article 31.4 of the FIA F1 Sporting Regulations).

    The Stewards reviewed video evidence, heard from the driver of car 16 (Charles Leclerc) and the team representative.

    LEC re-joined the track safely, recognized his error and aborted his lap in order not to gain a sporting advantage.

    It should be noted that had this incident occurred during the race a Time Penalty would have been imposed.

    Competitors are reminded that they have the right to appeal certain decisions of the Stewards, in accordance with Article 15 of the FIA International Sporting Code and Article 9.1.1 of the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules, within the applicable time limits.

    Gerd Ennser
    Emanuele Pirro Mike Kaerne The Stewards

    Mathieu Remmerie

     

     


    -And here is a second decision over the weekend, also on a Ferrari, during qualifying. notice the wording, Charles would have cured a time penalty had he done that during the race.

     

     

     

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    SciFrog:

    They above does not have any justification whatsoever, thank you for that...

     

    Fact: Car 5 left the track, re-joined unsafely and forced another car off track.

    This line, in case you missed it. Millions of TV viewers saw it live.

    There is no difference regarding the rule whether the rejoined part is willingly or un-willingly.

    Saying the car was out of control does not excuse the driver from being penalized.

    What more justification do you want? Vettel coming on TV saying he did it on purpose?


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    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    I am not going to remake the arguments again. They are written above. Of course it matters if he was in control or not, actually it is the only thing that matter for deciding to impose a penalty or not.

    When you run a red light but you are a passenger in the car, do you get a ticket? No, even though you could have influenced the driver so he would not run the red light...


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    If you run a red light because you lost control of the car by yourself, you would get a ticket, yes.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    SciFrog:

    I am not going to remake the arguments again. They are written above. Of course it matters if he was in control or not, actually it is the only thing that matter for deciding to impose a penalty or not.

    When you run a red light but you are a passenger in the car, do you get a ticket? No, even though you could have influenced the driver so he would not run the red light...

     

    That's in your personal opinion.

    The FIA rules does not make that distinction. It's black and white.

    Vettel is deemed to have left the racing surface his whole car crossed the white line. It does to matter if he was out of control and left the surface or not. When he rejoin-ed on the other side of the corner, his car was deemed to have rejoin-ed the racing surface when his whole car also crossed the line, and at that point he was also right on the racing line AND impeding another driver, who has to brake to avoid contact. In the eyes of the rule, he is to have rejoin-ed in a unsafe way. 

    You can scrap the bottom of the barrel and argue till the sun comes up from the West, it still won't change the fact that he broke the rule. The stewards was pretty clear stating the penalty in the Qualifying ruling, Charles also left the racing surface and rejoin-ed unsafely. 

    It's actually a very consistent ruling all weekend. 

     


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    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    FIA should change their rulings immediately. They should make other drivers pay for the errors that Vettel commits from now on. The guy keeps cracking under pressure time and time again and the FIA should change their books (or at least look the other way) to cut him some slacks.

    Oh and btw, the FIA should reward Vettel for acting like a child afterwards with an extra point. mail


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    I am not going to remake the arguments again. They are written above. Of course it matters if he was in control or not, actually it is the only thing that matter for deciding to impose a penalty or not.

    When you run a red light but you are a passenger in the car, do you get a ticket? No, even though you could have influenced the driver so he would not run the red light...

     

    That's in your personal opinion.

    The FIA rules does not make that distinction. It's black and white.

    Vettel is deemed to have left the racing surface his whole car crossed the white line. It does to matter if he was out of control and left the surface or not. When he rejoin-ed on the other side of the corner, his car was deemed to have rejoin-ed the racing surface when his whole car also crossed the line, and at that point he was also right on the racing line AND impeding another driver, who has to brake to avoid contact. In the eyes of the rule, he is to have rejoin-ed in a unsafe way. 

    You can scrap the bottom of the barrel and argue till the sun comes up from the West, it still won't change the fact that he broke the rule. The stewards was pretty clear stating the penalty in the Qualifying ruling, Charles also left the racing surface and rejoin-ed unsafely. 

    It's actually a very consistent ruling all weekend. 

     

    You made my points. The rule is written in a stupid way and stewards refused to use their discretion to not apply the penalty. Moving on...


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    SciFrog:
    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    I am not going to remake the arguments again. They are written above. Of course it matters if he was in control or not, actually it is the only thing that matter for deciding to impose a penalty or not.

    When you run a red light but you are a passenger in the car, do you get a ticket? No, even though you could have influenced the driver so he would not run the red light...

     

    That's in your personal opinion.

    The FIA rules does not make that distinction. It's black and white.

    Vettel is deemed to have left the racing surface his whole car crossed the white line. It does to matter if he was out of control and left the surface or not. When he rejoin-ed on the other side of the corner, his car was deemed to have rejoin-ed the racing surface when his whole car also crossed the line, and at that point he was also right on the racing line AND impeding another driver, who has to brake to avoid contact. In the eyes of the rule, he is to have rejoin-ed in a unsafe way. 

    You can scrap the bottom of the barrel and argue till the sun comes up from the West, it still won't change the fact that he broke the rule. The stewards was pretty clear stating the penalty in the Qualifying ruling, Charles also left the racing surface and rejoin-ed unsafely. 

    It's actually a very consistent ruling all weekend. 

     

    You made my points. The rule is written in a stupid way and stewards refused to use their discretion to not apply the penalty. Moving on...

     

    Perhaps it is written in a stupid way, as a racer I agreed with that point, it needs to be modified. 

    But the intent of the rule is for safety reason. As it is written, there is no wiggle room, especially during a race. 


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    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    The incident in Montreal is partially also caused by the drivers themselves. In a number of races Vettel (and others) are the first to complain if another makes a mistake and ask to penalties. If it now works against him (Vettel) big tears. A driver like Hamilton does not make a mistake which puts him in such a position. Vettel is overrated as a driver and not a far loser

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    JR-550:

    The incident in Montreal is partially also caused by the drivers themselves. In a number of races Vettel (and others) are the first to complain if another makes a mistake and ask to penalties. If it now works against him (Vettel) big tears. A driver like Hamilton does not make a mistake which puts him in such a position. Vettel is overrated as a driver and not a far loser

     

    +1

    SV always cracks under pressure, LH44 barely makes mistakes (other than his other titel rivals lile CL in Baku, VB is only quick if he leads right from the start)

    I also think that SV's childish change of signs at the end of the race should have been "rewarded" with an extra point (-1)!

    Did he ever get penalized for his deliberate crash into LH in Baku 1-2 years back?

    Same like DR at RedBull CL will push SV from Ferrari, if not 2020 then at least 2021 (and hopefully nobody will provide him with an cockpit)Smiley


     
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