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    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    gradyex said:
    Thanks for sharing MMD, very interesting stuff. I have one observation to add to this "break in" theory. My 997S was stronger at 10K miles than it was at 5K miles. I followed the breakin procedures according to Porsches reccomendations. There is definatly a "breakin curve" with these cars. I'm NOT referring to initial breakin but a point in time when the engine reaches its full potential. For some it takes 10K miles to reach that point. I think running the car hard sooner, shortens the time that your engine takes to reach its full potential. Not sure if this makes any sense but thats my theory?



    1. Unless you've got a slew of 1/4 mile dragstrip timeslips to support, how do you really know if and how much faster your car is? Seat of the pants??

    2. Don't confuse a motor being "fully-broken-in" with a motor that has worn enough to become "loose". Two different events COMPLETELY.

    3. Any number of other fellows on here could say their cars are faster at 10,000 than 5,000, and say they hammered the thing right off the lot. You're speculating that your adherence to the break-in has anything to do with how good the car runs now. There could be zero relationship for all you know.

    Not trying to be snippy, just making some points. I realize that this thread's getting heated, and I'm guilty to an extent. I just get frustrated!!





    I think either you misunderstood me or i wasn't clear in my post so I'll try to address it again:
    (1) My car felt stronger at 10000 miles than at 5000 miles.Lets widen the gap for simplicity: My car felt stronger at 10000 miles than it did at 1000 miles. That is my "seat of the pants" observation and I stand by it because its obvious. Even though its obvious to me, its just my opinion. I could say the same thing about 100 octane fuel vs 91. Unless I put it on a dyno its "seat of the pants" but TO ME there is a difference.

    (2) and (3) Not confusing either of the two they are seperate observations but its POSSIBLE that one may influence the other (through the laws of Physics). I am not saying it takes 10000 miles to break in a Porsche but it took that long before I felt my engine reached its full potential. I merely suggested that it's possible that another driver could get to this point sooner, depending on how hard it was driven from day 1. This "curve" may or may not be related to initial break-in. There is no way to know this, just an educated observation.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    gradyex said:
    I think either you misunderstood me or i wasn't clear in my post so I'll try to address it again:
    (1) My car felt stronger at 10000 miles than at 5000 miles.Lets widen the gap for simplicity: My car felt stronger at 10000 miles than it did at 1000 miles. That is my "seat of the pants" observation and I stand by it because its obvious. Even though its obvious to me, its just my opinion. I could say the same thing about 100 octane fuel vs 91. Unless I put it on a dyno its "seat of the pants" but TO ME there is a difference.

    (2) and (3) Not confusing either of the two they are seperate observations but its POSSIBLE that one may influence the other (through the laws of Physics). I am not saying it takes 10000 miles to break in a Porsche but it took that long before I felt my engine reached its full potential. I merely suggested that it's possible that another driver could get to this point sooner, depending on how hard it was driven from day 1. This "curve" may or may not be related to initial break-in. There is no way to know this, just an educated observation.



    Fair enough, your points are valid.

    And as was suggested before, service intervals, and proper warming, are far more critical than how you drive it off the lot. It's like comparing a tic-tac to a whale. Call it apples/oranges, but I've got an 1989 E350 van with a gas 460 c.i. V8 that I bought new. From day one, 20 miles, it was hooked to a cargo trailer and tugged 10,000 lb payloads between Florida and Michigan on a monthly basis. To keep it at safe highway speed, fully-laden, pretty much required keeping the gas pedal on the floorboard, constantly.. Accelerating up the on-ramps was redline shift after redline shift, tugging a heavy load, which it did from brand-new...

    It currently has over 270,000 miles on the clock, has virtually as-new compression, as-new oil consumption, and is now "retired" as a show-van for hauling tents and gear and merchandise to local swap meets and car shows.

    It was broken in with a base-ball bat, figuratively speaking. It's lived its entire life at full throttle. But it never missed an oil change, chassis lube, tranny service, etc... Sure, it's not a flat-six, but I still think it's worth pondering..

    And yes, my example is about as scientific as Mystery Science Theatre 3000"..

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    My Opinion
    case in point , 997GT3 exact following the " HINT" Section its been at my OPC for 4 weeks after seizing the engine at 900 Miles the guy has not had it full load not had it above 4800 RPM ? I chat to a guy in the showroom about to have his 4th Turbo just after mine is handed over , He says drove his 993 like hell from 20 miles on the clock sold it 3 years later with 41,000 on the clock like new never missed a beat , did the same with his 996TT again never missed a beat he was going to pull out in 997TT about an hour after me and yes you guessed it he was track daying this weekend with it ! Mine 200 Miles and then i will start to give some. I raced circuit cars for years and saw numerous of my freshly built engines on the Dyno , they run them up give them 5 mins under gentle load then give them all they have got and tune them ? do they blow up !! Nope do they perform Yes ? are the stress's and loads higher at 9,000 RPM you bet they are and they are built to far higher tolerances than a Porka engine yep you bet they are, i think that all manufacturers try to do themselves a favour not the Consumer / user. If they build a defctive item ETC they would rather it fail later in life IE after a few weeks rather than the first couple of weeks it saves "Face" and does not effect there reputation as much , well thats my opinion

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    I agree with 69 bossnine. It is highly unlikely Porsche would use exceeding 4000rpm's during "breakin period" as a reason not to extend a warranty. But I also I agree a car should be driven with caution until the oil temperature gets to a certain point. To do otherwise is to unnecessarily stress the engine.

    There is another reaons often given for not following breakin procedures. Many subscribe to the theory that hard breakin increases the performance of the engine and car. Many owners swear that by following breakin procedures, it make the car slower. I do not have evidence to support either position. I would be a curious to find out if it is true that a harder breakin means a faster car.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I would be a curious to find out if it is true that a harder breakin means a faster car.



    I think there's different stages involved. At least a couple. I read that piston rings seat in the first 200 miles; they cause alot of friction while doing so. It's very impt to vary engine speeds to get them to wear in optimally. Optimally-worn-in piston rings are a big deal I am forced to believe.

    Something from my BMW experiences so when breaking in my P-car I took it easy for those 200 miles BUT shifted gears, almost literally, every five minutes to help vary engine speed.

    BTW, BMW's break in ___"procedure"___ implores new car owner to vary engine speeds constantly at the beginning.


    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    MMD. BMW is not a Porsche. Even you're smart enough to know the difference. In that vein, should I use a Kia's break in procedure and apply it to my new Porsche? Ridiculous!

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    MMD. BMW is not a Porsche. Even you're smart enough to know the difference. In that vein, should I use a Kia's break in procedure and apply it to my new Porsche? Ridiculous!




    My BMWs (currently an e46 M3) have had a similar HP/displacement ratio so I'd consider them in the same vein. Also BMW and Porsche have the same class of car-guy owners with the same expectations and predilictions. I'd consider it rational to consider both engines as similar, comparable, same class; above all they're German made; the same ethos goes into designing and mfgring them.

    Kia? I agree, with it's output, it might as well be considered from another planet.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    nberry said: I would be a curious to find out if it is true that a harder breakin means a faster car.



    So would I, but we'll never know. Motorcycle owners swear by that.

    Unfortunately, this will go on and on and on . . . and on . . .

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Hey MMD, you realize that your Porsche has a flat six and your M3 has a straight six right? Oh I see, they're identical.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Hey MMD, you realize that your Porsche has a flat six and your M3 has a straight six right? Oh I see, they're identical.



    This little sideshow is pretty dumb. I'm sure MMD realizes that there are differences, but they are also both high performance, highly engineered, modern German motors, so it's not unreasonable to compare the break in recommendations of one with the other and take it for what it's worth. Your point seems to be that to do so is completely worthless, and I would think that's extreme.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Hey MMD, you realize that your Porsche has a flat six and your M3 has a straight six right? Oh I see, they're identical.



    I hate to say this but I'm thinking of utilizing the Rennteam "ignore" button.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    The ignore button, like most posters did to you over at rennlist?

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    excmag said:

    -Many engine builders (respected ones) put engines on the dyno after a fresh build and a break-in that is far less than 1,000-2,000 miles. Builders like Jerry Woods, Alois Ruf, Olaf Manthey...





    Didn't Porsche at one point put every brand new production engine for the 996 and Boxster on a dyno at the factory and run them hard? Did they ever or do they still do that?

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    O.K., maybe I'm just out of my league on this , but...

    Aren't the piston rings made from plasma-moly coated steel, and don't they seal the gap between the piston and the cylinder wall REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY'RE PUMPING UP AND DOWN IN A BMW, OR BACK AND FORTH IN A PORSCHE???

    Jeez Texas, I'm beginning to feel like I'm debating the origins of the universe with a mannequin...

    Regardless of manufacturer or layout, certain basic principles are shared between most modern piston & crankshaft internal combustion engines.... Before you accuse everyone of being ill-advised and unqualified, perhaps a glance in the mirror would be illuminating... Geeyawd...

    Do you think there's some sort of miracle top-secret-alien-sourced technology going on with the rings and bearings in a flat-6??

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    OK, here's what I'll do. I'll break my car in on the dyno within 20 miles of delivery, followed by a track weekend at Texas World Speedway. I'll keep a diary of all engine issues.

    I'll do this as a service for everyone in this thread. Easy for me to do, my diary will be empty.

    Anyway, Bruce Andersen falls into the Porsche 'god' category. He's forgotten more about Porsches than most of us will know in a lifetime. While I'm not one to blindly follow self-proclaimed experts, Bruce has long earned respect for his knowledge base. I have little doubt of the veracity and technical accuracy of what Exc printed on this subject.

    But, it doesn't come as a shock to me. After years of being a gearhead and being around others of like kind, what Exc printed is common knowledge around such people. What we have here is tension b/t the written word and what gearheads have long understood through emprical testing.

    But hey, the manual is 'safe'. Follow it to the letter if that gives you comfort.

    Cheers.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Nobody has mentioned this but, aren't these engines bench tested?(I must have been sleepy during that part of the tour ) And I'm sure that bench testing would exceed recommended RPM's for periods of time. Having said that I'd have a hard time thrashing my car from the get go as I like to take care of my stuff. It's your car do what you want with it.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Do you think there's some sort of miracle top-secret-alien-sourced technology going on with the rings and bearings in a flat-6??




     
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