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    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:

    There is no substitute for the personal touch in business.

    Personal touch is very important to me and this is why I buy Porsche cars. My dealership is owned by a family, I always talk to the owner directly and if I'm not happy with him, I talk to Porsche directly at the highest level (and believe it or not, they talk to me too, something I have never encountered with any other car company). This personal contact makes me love the brand and I wish Porsche would understand that this personal contact is extremely important to other customers too. Yes, Porsche wants the dealers to deal with customers, which is only fair but sometimes the dealer just doesn't cut it. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    RC:

    Personal touch is very important to me and this is why I buy Porsche cars. My dealership is owned by a family, I always talk to the owner directly and if I'm not happy with him, I talk to Porsche directly at the highest level (and believe it or not, they talk to me too, something I have never encountered with any other car company). This personal contact makes me love the brand and I wish Porsche would understand that this personal contact is extremely important to other customers too. Yes, Porsche wants the dealers to deal with customers, which is only fair but sometimes the dealer just doesn't cut it. Smiley

    RC, do Porsche a favour - when you are next talking to your contact in Porsche "at the highest level" please mention to him that some of their UK dealers do the brand no favours.....Smiley

    You have my full permission to give him my contact details!!


    --

     

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Can we cut the bullshit here regarding Porsche owners preferring it to Ferrari?

    I would wager that if offered a new 991TT or 458 for the same price over 90% would take the Ferrari. Reginos, which would you take?

     


    --

     


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    The new 991 Turbo S is in fact the same price as a 458, so hopefully for Porsche's sake you are wrong.


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    nberry:

    I would wager that if offered a new 991TT or 458 for the same price over 90% would take the Ferrari. Reginos, which would you take?

     

    You didn't ask me Nick but a definite yes from me - but I will qualify that by saying that our Porsche is not a daily drive, a Ferrari would not be suitable for daily use IMO Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    nberry:

    Can we cut the bullshit here regarding Porsche owners preferring it to Ferrari?

    I would wager that if offered a new 991TT or 458 for the same price over 90% would take the Ferrari. Reginos, which would you take?

    My honest reply: The Porsche Turbo S of course. I would even consider an Audi V10 Plus if I liked dramatic looks.

    The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth Smiley

    However, I'd be very tempted for a F12 Berlinetta.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    palenimbus:

    The new 991 Turbo S is in fact the same price as a 458, so hopefully for Porsche's sake you are wrong.

    Isn't the Ferrari in the 230.000 EUR range?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    I've never really seriously enquired about the price of a 458 myself, but Rossi confirmed on the other thread that both the base price and the real price of the Turbo S and the 458 are the same.


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Couple of thing you need to keep in mind. The 458 is a DD car. Also, maintenance and reliability is no longer the serious issue it once was with previous Ferrari's. Today, most Ferrari cost about the same to maintain as does a Porsche. But more importantly, the 458 is about 5 times as much fun to drive as a TT. The only downside is the attention the 458 generates.

    FWIW, buying a 991TT in the US will cost $145,000. Buying a 458 around $235,000.


    --

     


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Well said. however the base price of a TTS in the US is $181k


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    nberry:

    Couple of thing you need to keep in mind. The 458 is a DD car. Also, maintenance and reliability is no longer the serious issue it once was with previous Ferrari's. Today, most Ferrari cost about the same to maintain as does a Porsche. But more importantly, the 458 is about 5 times as much fun to drive as a TT. The only downside is the attention the 458 generates.

    FWIW, buying a 991TT in the US will cost $145,000. Buying a 458 around $235,000.

    Two points: 

    The 458 is very conspicuous for daily driving, both in the visual and the aural sense.  Even in affluent countries, if driven as a regural automobile it will create social resentment. Therefore, the effort  Ferrari made to make it as drivable as possible is very commendable but in a sense redundant. As a track car it should also be very costly.

    I agree that the Ferrari is more exciting in the sensory department, if this what someone likes. But in the Turbo S the driver has his satisfaction and fulfillment  as the  Porsche takes everything in its stride whatever is  thrown at it, weather or road wise. Two different approaches and two different kinds of enjoyment. No one is wrong in what he prefers most. 

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:
     

    Two points: 

    The 458 is very conspicuous for daily driving, both in the visual and the aural sense.  Even in affluent countries, if driven as a regural automobile it will create social resentment. Therefore, the effort  Ferrari made to make it as drivable as possible is very commendable but in a sense redundant. As a track car it should also be very costly.

     

    I can "get away" with turning up at work in my 997 (bearing in mind that to non enthusiasts a 911 is a 911 no matter what the model is) but if I arrived at work and parked up in a Ferrari - even an F430, let alone a 458 it would be an altogether different response.........Smiley

    I accept that Ferrari are a lot better built then they used to be but I still don't see one as a practical daily drive.


    --

     

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Is it me or has this thread become duplicated? Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    dreamcar:
    reginos:
     

    Two points: 

    The 458 is very conspicuous for daily driving, both in the visual and the aural sense.  Even in affluent countries, if driven as a regural automobile it will create social resentment. Therefore, the effort  Ferrari made to make it as drivable as possible is very commendable but in a sense redundant. As a track car it should also be very costly.

     

    I can "get away" with turning up at work in my 997 (bearing in mind that to non enthusiasts a 911 is a 911 no matter what the model is) but if I arrived at work and parked up in a Ferrari - even an F430, let alone a 458 it would be an altogether different response.........Smiley

    I accept that Ferrari are a lot better built then they used to be but I still don't see one as a practical daily drive.

    I agree on the attention front. However, the FF is a genuine (if expensive) daily drive.


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    crayphile:

    However, the FF is a genuine (if expensive) daily drive.

    Ferrari here in the UK now come with a four year warranty - one year longer than Porsche - and with seven years maintenance now included in the price maybe even running costs may be closer than they once were....Smiley Once you've got over the initial purchase price of course Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    dreamcar:
    crayphile:

    However, the FF is a genuine (if expensive) daily drive.

    Ferrari here in the UK now come with a four year warranty - one year longer than Porsche - and with seven years maintenance now included in the price maybe even running costs may be closer than they once were....Smiley Once you've got over the initial purchase price of course Smiley

    Recall that the biggest cost of ownership is depreciation and that is Epic Smiley with the FF.


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    crayphile:
    dreamcar:
    crayphile:

    However, the FF is a genuine (if expensive) daily drive.

    Ferrari here in the UK now come with a four year warranty - one year longer than Porsche - and with seven years maintenance now included in the price maybe even running costs may be closer than they once were....Smiley Once you've got over the initial purchase price of course Smiley

    Recall that the biggest cost of ownership is depreciation and that is Epic Smiley with the FF.

    I'm not a great admirer of the FF looks like a shed to me... Smiley "My" Ferrari would have to be a 458 although I could tolerate a California Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    dreamcar:
    crayphile:

    However, the FF is a genuine (if expensive) daily drive.

    Ferrari here in the UK now come with a four year warranty - one year longer than Porsche - and with seven years maintenance now included in the price maybe even running costs may be closer than they once were....Smiley Once you've got over the initial purchase price of course Smiley

    Do you mean that all breakdowns and faults are covered for 4 years plus for 7 years you don't pay for anything except fuel? 

    So straightforward? 

    On the Porsche I pay 1.000 EUR for factory warranty (up to 9 years) and a minimal amount for the annual service. The biggest cost  is tyres but I get them at good prices on line from Germany delivered to my door.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    dreamcar:
     

    Do you mean that all breakdowns and faults are covered for 4 years plus for 7 years you don't pay for anything except fuel? 

    So straightforward? 

     

    Yes  - that is pretty much it


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    The general public views Porsche as being an expensive sport car. When they see a Porsche and Ferrari they have no idea that there is a substantially cost difference between the two. They view them equally expensive.

    BTW, who started the second thread and why?


    --

     


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    nberry:

    BTW, who started the second thread and why?

    I guess another Rennteam "glitch" ..........Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    nberry:

    Can we cut the bullshit here regarding Porsche owners preferring it to Ferrari?

    I would wager that if offered a new 991TT or 458 for the same price over 90% would take the Ferrari. Reginos, which would you take?

     

    Nick. following your logic, there should be tons of Ferrari owners in Germany and for example Italy (the home of Ferrari) but surprisingly, people buy more Porsche.

    Btw: I would buy the 991 Turbo S over the 458 (even the upcoming facelift) anytime. 

    Reasons? Ferrari is too flashy, next Ferrari dealership (and repair shop) would be 70 km from my home, reliability (all Ferrari owners I know personally were having some sort of trouble with their cars), social environment (even the 991 Turbo S is going to be an issue, Ferrari would be overkill) and last but not least, Ferrari has crappy lease offers. Also, the German IRS "recognizes" Porsche as a business car without any major issues, a Ferrari is always a problem, unless you run a multi-million business. There are so many reasons NOT to go for a Ferrari over here, even for the same price of a Porsche.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    RC:
    nberry:

    Can we cut the bullshit here regarding Porsche owners preferring it to Ferrari?

    I would wager that if offered a new 991TT or 458 for the same price over 90% would take the Ferrari. Reginos, which would you take?

     

    Nick. following your logic, there should be tons of Ferrari owners in Germany and for example Italy (the home of Ferrari) but surprisingly, people buy more Porsche.

    Btw: I would buy the 991 Turbo S over the 458 (even the upcoming facelift) anytime. 

    Reasons? Ferrari is too flashy, next Ferrari dealership (and repair shop) would be 60 km from my home, reliability (all Ferrari owners I know personally were having some sort of trouble with their cars), social environment (even the 991 Turbo S is going to be an issue, Ferrari would be overkill) and last but not least, Ferrari has crappy lease offers. Also, the German IRS "recognizes" Porsche as a business car without any major issues, a Ferrari is always a problem, unless you run a multi-million business. There are so many reasons NOT to go for a Ferrari over here, even for the same price of a Porsche.


    Some of the reasons you state are universal and apply everywhere.

    I cannot understand why Ferrari owners and even fans, think that if someone chooses any other car over a Ferrari this is solely due to lack of funds. In reality, the buying decision could be based on numerous other reasons, including personal taste and preference.There are super rich who buy 911 and people of more limited means who borrow to buy a (usually pre-owned) Ferrari.

    I was reading an on the road comparison from EVO, between R8 V10 Plus, 458 and MP4 and the writers owned up to the fact that the Audi has nothing to be jealous compared to the other two. Actually, it would be their car of choice and its only "deficiency" is its badge.

    Preconceived ideas Smiley

    Personally, if I were more €€ comfortable, the cars I'd consider would be either  the new Turbo S or the Audi. I wouldn't look elsewhere.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:
    palenimbus:

    The new 991 Turbo S is in fact the same price as a 458, so hopefully for Porsche's sake you are wrong.

    Isn't the Ferrari in the 230.000 EUR range?

    458 italia prices start from 168K Euro (without VAT) in Germany. My car has 20K Euro (again without VAT) worth of extra options which covers, IMO everything for me.

    The list price of 991 Turbo S 164.000 Euro (without VAT) which covers almost every needed option. The prices are too close that 5% price difference won't effect the decision. The real question is what you want for your money? They are totally 2 different cars which perform similar. 

    If I want something special, something more exotic, Ferrari would be my choice. If I want everyday usability with brand prestige and service support 991 Turbo S would be my choice. IMO, Mclaren Mp4-12C falls short in each category. It is neither exotic/special nor real everyday car. 


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    pride355:
    reginos:
    palenimbus:

    The new 991 Turbo S is in fact the same price as a 458, so hopefully for Porsche's sake you are wrong.

    Isn't the Ferrari in the 230.000 EUR range?

    458 italia prices start from 168K Euro (without VAT) in Germany. My car has 20K Euro (again without VAT) worth of extra options which covers, IMO everything for me.

    The list price of 991 Turbo S 164.000 Euro (without VAT) which covers almost every needed option. The prices are too close that 5% price difference won't effect the decision. The real question is what you want for your money? They are totally 2 different cars which perform similar. 

    If I want something special, something more exotic, Ferrari would be my choice. If I want everyday usability with brand prestige and service support 991 Turbo S would be my choice. IMO, Mclaren Mp4-12C falls short in each category. It is neither exotic/special nor real everyday car. 


    Thank you for the clarification about price wink

    Good comparative points. How do you rate the SLS in this company?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:
    nberry:

    Couple of thing you need to keep in mind. The 458 is a DD car. Also, maintenance and reliability is no longer the serious issue it once was with previous Ferrari's. Today, most Ferrari cost about the same to maintain as does a Porsche. But more importantly, the 458 is about 5 times as much fun to drive as a TT. The only downside is the attention the 458 generates.

    FWIW, buying a 991TT in the US will cost $145,000. Buying a 458 around $235,000.

    Two points: 

    The 458 is very conspicuous for daily driving, both in the visual and the aural sense.  Even in affluent countries, if driven as a regural automobile it will create social resentment. Therefore, the effort  Ferrari made to make it as drivable as possible is very commendable but in a sense redundant. As a track car it should also be very costly.

    I agree that the Ferrari is more exciting in the sensory department, if this what someone likes. But in the Turbo S the driver has his satisfaction and fulfillment  as the  Porsche takes everything in its stride whatever is  thrown at it, weather or road wise. Two different approaches and two different kinds of enjoyment. No one is wrong in what he prefers most. 

    The best thing about modern Ferraris are they don't brake often. It is possible to use it daily because it doesn't consume much, doesn't brake often, clutch and ceramic rotors last lifetime, yearly maintenance is free. All of this encourage people to use it more often; not use it everyday. I tracked my 458 5 times so far which means approx. 450 track km and I drive my car hard at the track. I did 2000 km trip (well almost) with it and drove it 6 continues hours without stopping except for fuel. The car had no glitch (knock on the wood) I'm on my 3rd set of tires after 5500 km and need a new set, I'm on my 2nd set of front brake pads but that's it. I remember old 360 Modena which cannot do 4 consecutive laps @ İstanbul Park.

    However, all of these don't mean you can make your 458 an everyday car. In theory, it can be used but it is still not a Porsche in that sense. Also, most Ferrari owners don't buy their cars to drive everyday. I buy my 458 to treat it special. Keep it in the garage and see it every morning before I go to work, under its red indoor-cover. I drive it when I'm relaxed and doesn't think something else. These cars are for those occasions. I'm happy to see that Ferrari has come this far. If the built and mechanical quality was like 360, I couldn't track it or wouldn't make a 2000 km trip while worrying about when it would brake down. 


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    dreamcar:

     

    I can "get away" with turning up at work in my 997 (bearing in mind that to non enthusiasts a 911 is a 911 no matter what the model is) but if I arrived at work and parked up in a Ferrari - even an F430, let alone a 458 it would be an altogether different response.........Smiley

    I accept that Ferrari are a lot better built then they used to be but I still don't see one as a practical daily drive.

    A 2000 model 360 Modena with a tubi exhaust attracts more attention than 2014 991 Turbo S.

    I'm not saying this as a good or bad thing. But this is the hard fact about Ferrari. period.


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    crayphile:

    However, the FF is a genuine (if expensive) daily drive.

    Ferrari here in the UK now come with a four year warranty - one year longer than Porsche - and with seven years maintenance now included in the price maybe even running costs may be closer than they once were....Smiley Once you've got over the initial purchase price of course Smiley

    Do you mean that all breakdowns and faults are covered for 4 years plus for 7 years you don't pay for anything except fuel? 

    So straightforward? 

    On the Porsche I pay 1.000 EUR for factory warranty (up to 9 years) and a minimal amount for the annual service. The biggest cost  is tyres but I get them at good prices on line from Germany delivered to my door.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Reginos,

    You also pay for the brake pads Smiley


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:

     

    Some of the reasons you state are universal and apply everywhere.

    I cannot understand why Ferrari owners and even fans, think that if someone chooses any other car over a Ferrari this is solely due to lack of funds. In reality, the buying decision could be based on numerous other reasons, including personal taste and preference.There are super rich who buy 911 and people of more limited means who borrow to buy a (usually pre-owned) Ferrari.

    I was reading an on the road comparison from EVO, between R8 V10 Plus, 458 and MP4 and the writers owned up to the fact that the Audi has nothing to be jealous compared to the other two. Actually, it would be their car of choice and its only "deficiency" is its badge.

    Preconceived ideas Smiley

    Personally, if I were more €€ comfortable, the cars I'd consider would be either  the new Turbo S or the Audi. I wouldn't look elsewhere.

    --

    "Form follows function"

    I have 6 friends who own Ferraris (355, 360, Scuderia, 599, 458 etc.) None of them think (me including) 911 is a lesser car in terms of funds. 911 is only a different approach to sports car and it is not exotic.


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:
    pride355:
    reginos:
    palenimbus:

    The new 991 Turbo S is in fact the same price as a 458, so hopefully for Porsche's sake you are wrong.

    Isn't the Ferrari in the 230.000 EUR range?

    458 italia prices start from 168K Euro (without VAT) in Germany. My car has 20K Euro (again without VAT) worth of extra options which covers, IMO everything for me.

    The list price of 991 Turbo S 164.000 Euro (without VAT) which covers almost every needed option. The prices are too close that 5% price difference won't effect the decision. The real question is what you want for your money? They are totally 2 different cars which perform similar. 

    If I want something special, something more exotic, Ferrari would be my choice. If I want everyday usability with brand prestige and service support 991 Turbo S would be my choice. IMO, Mclaren Mp4-12C falls short in each category. It is neither exotic/special nor real everyday car. 


    Thank you for the clarification about price wink

    Good comparative points. How do you rate the SLS in this company?

    SLS? hımmm... I think that car belongs to Rich multi-car garage owners who have many different cars. If you ask me, SLS is neither a real sports car nor everyday car, like Mclaren. It is for people who want to separate from the crowd or for people who can afford all.  


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


     
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