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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    reginos:
    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley

    By VW they probably mean a number or all of the Group companies, including Porsche.

    Anyway, if the VW Group with all their technology cannot attain the targets set by governments IMO no one could.

    I think that the point is that VW could have attained the emissions targets, but some people chose to cut corners (and costs) by not equipping engines to achieve performance and drivability targets whist at the same time fulfilling the legal emission requirements. 

    Even if technically  they could, commercially these extra costs would have been prohibitive. There is not much you can add to premium car prices. They are already too expensive for most consumers.

    Unless consumers are willing to go back to the 80-90HP  family cars of the 60s and 70s.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:

    Things are getting ugly:

    Audi CEO Hackenberg and Porsche CEO Wolfgang Hatz also have to go... Both were responsible for development.

    Hatz leaving Porsche is a huge blow for Porsche in my opinion.

    I am really sorry to hear that.  I knew Hatz before his VW days and I remember once having occasion to teach him a German proverb which he had not heard up until then:

    "Lügen haben kurze Beine" = "Lies have short legs".

    It's sad to think that his downfall may have been caused by forgetting it again. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    RC:
    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    Does that surprise anyone here? Smiley

    Of course it does, VW is a respected car manufacturer of high repute building top quality cars in the environmentally conscious Germany. That's why I purchased a VW Group product....the stress and guilt I now have driving such an environmentally and health  damaging car when I was sold the opposite.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    I am contemplating burning all my four VW-Konzern cars in protest Smiley

    That'll help the environment!   Smiley

    I wonder what size of pollution the materials they use will emmit once they are on fire Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:
    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley

    By VW they probably mean a number or all of the Group companies, including Porsche.

    Anyway, if the VW Group with all their technology cannot attain the targets set by governments IMO no one could.

    I think that the point is that VW could have attained the emissions targets, but some people chose to cut corners (and costs) by not equipping engines to achieve performance and drivability targets whist at the same time fulfilling the legal emission requirements. 

    Even if technically  they could, commercially these extra costs would have been prohibitive. There is not much you can add to premium car prices. They are already too expensive for most consumers.

    Unless consumers are willing to go back to the 80-90HP  family cars of the 60s and 70s.

    They would naturally have increased costs, but cheating the system is not the right answer to that problem. 
    Cheating also gives rise to the impression that ambitious targets are easily achievable, potentially causing legislators to raise them even further. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC, Hackenberg and Hatz were board members in charge of R&D, not CEOs of Audi and Porsche.

    Anyway, as you say losing both is terrible news for both brands, and in the case of Porsche definitely also their motorsports activities. Walliser could be in line for a promotion to head of R&D at Porsche. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    olli:

    RC, Hackenberg and Hatz were board members in charge of R&D, not CEOs of Audi and Porsche.

    They were part of the "Vorstand" (leadership"), sorry if I may have used the word CEO in a wrong context.

    Anyway, as you say losing both is terrible news for both brands, and in the case of Porsche definitely also their motorsports activities. Walliser could be in line for a promotion to head of R&D at Porsche

    I heard a different name right now but everything is possible. So much going on, very difficult to say anything for sure.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Very bad news for Porsche Motorsport. Is this confirmed RC?


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:
    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley

    By VW they probably mean a number or all of the Group companies, including Porsche.

    Anyway, if the VW Group with all their technology cannot attain the targets set by governments IMO no one could.

    I think that the point is that VW could have attained the emissions targets, but some people chose to cut corners (and costs) by not equipping engines to achieve performance and drivability targets whist at the same time fulfilling the legal emission requirements. 

    Even if technically  they could, commercially these extra costs would have been prohibitive. There is not much you can add to premium car prices. They are already too expensive for most consumers.

    Unless consumers are willing to go back to the 80-90HP  family cars of the 60s and 70s.

    They would naturally have increased costs, but cheating the system is not the right answer to that problem. 
    Cheating also gives rise to the impression that ambitious targets are easily achievable, potentially causing legislators to raise them even further. 

    Cheating is immoral but it is also entrenched in human nature when faced with difficult decisions. Sad but true. The German motor industry was not immune to that.

    I don't think legislators would be willing to detract from their stringent targets. Given their other obsession with road speed reduction they would argue that people don't need so powerful and fast cars in today's world. OTOH the motor industry's marketing has convinced consumers that everybody could have many PS with little money, less fuel and less emissions' taxation. This new motoring equation is something which would have been almost impossible commercially to reverse hence the pressure from the business side on the engineers to find ready and easy solutions.

     

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Spyderidol:

    Very bad news for Porsche Motorsport. Is this confirmed RC?

    A rumor, which appeared yesterday evening but apparently was confirmed by a German newspaper this morning. I cannot tell you for sure but I talked to a friend yesterday evening and he was very upset because the name Hatz came into play and he didn't really understand why.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    What did Merkel know about this and when did she know it?


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Hatz used to be head of engine R&D VW group-wide


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    Spyderidol:

    Very bad news for Porsche Motorsport. Is this confirmed RC?

    A rumor, which appeared yesterday evening but apparently was confirmed by a German newspaper this morning. I cannot tell you for sure but I talked to a friend yesterday evening and he was very upset because the name Hatz came into play and he didn't really understand why.

    Thanks RC. This is terrible news! Hatz is the member of Porsche’s Board of Management in charge of Research and Development, and is additionally Head of Engines and Transmissions Development for the Volkswagen Group.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    JimFlat6:

    What did Merkel know about this and when did she know it?

    Not sure I understand this question. Merkel is not working for VW. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Well, already Germanys Green Party claims about her knowing of VW Issues in July have hit news sites in the US and UK. Just giving you a chance to clarify....smiley


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    It's almost impossible that by July she had not been made aware of the problems VW was having with the EPA and CARB. However, that doesn't mean she knew any more than that about what was going on, especially since VW hadn't admitted that they were cheating tests at that point. I think the Green Party is just trying to make political hay out of nothing here. Knowing that there was some issue doesn't equate to being involved in a coverup.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    “The BMW Group does not manipulate or rig any emissions tests,” the Munich-based company said in a statement in response to the report. “We observe the legal requirements in each country.”

     

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-24/vw-cheating-scandal-threatens-to-ensnare-bmw-as-probe-widens


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    all cars are dirty in terms of all that is damaged environmentally to build them and to power them, even electrics which are plugged into grids that generate power from  coal in some areas , but at the same time , the car itself is conveniently judged only on its tailpipe emssions by the " green intelligentsia " and gee, weren't we talking about Apple on another thread ? 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I have heard the California Air Resources Board may very shortly  initiate   " real world " testing of all  diesel passenger vehicles certified for sale here .....this is going to get VERY interesting ...and possibly very expensive and significantly affect us German car enthusiasts for who knows how long from a product standpoint


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Lars997:
    fritz:
    apias:
    Lars997:

    The share price just dropped underneath 100,- € - lowest low 95,51.... angelheartmail

    I think the board needs to meet today, not wait till Friday, and Winterkorn has to go whether he was responsible or not, to try and stop the bleeding. I can't believe they put this meeting off this long. 

    I've never understood the reasoning behind wanting to find a scapegoat regardless of actual culpability when things go wrong. It makes a mockery of real justice. To sack someone who is not guilty of direct involvement to stop the bleeding of the company is no different than a Mayan human sacrifice, and society should have moved on from there by now. 

    You made it - one sentence I had to check to words in the Dictionary Smiley

    Think of Schuldenbock and mea culpa respectively. Smiley

    And yes - this may be a Mayan human sacrifice but this is what it needs!

    I don't know what you mean by "it", but the world never "needed" a Mayan human sacrifice. 

    The concept does have long tradition in Germany, though Smiley:

    Bestrafung.JPG

    I wonder if Phase 7 will be added in some instances in this particular case Smiley:

    7. Phase :  Beförderung des Schuldigen 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    "...at least 25 proposed class actions on behalf of consumers have already been filed in seven states."

    no


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    That explains why we haven't heard from Nick (nberry). He's too busy drumming up business.   Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:

    That explains why we haven't heard from Nick (nberry). He's too busy drumming up business.   Smiley

    Smiley I thought the same yesterday, when I wondered where Nick is. Smiley

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Porsche CEO Müller to be appointed VW group CEO!!


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    In a way this is the ultimate irony:

    the old Wiedeking strategic plot of Porsche owning and dominating VW has come full circle now, albeit in a very different manner than originally intended, with the Posche-Piech clan as the majority shareholder of VW through their control of Porsche SE and the Porsche CEO moving up in the world to run the entire VW group...but of course the circumstances are horrendous.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I suppose that this could mean that Porsche (v6 diesel) is "clean".


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    More changes. Not related to this scandal....I think.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/porsche-names-new-head-of-human-resources-2015-09-24-104854541

     

    On second thoughts: Muller most likely wanted Edig to accompany him to VW. There's a lot of messy HR stuff that will have to get sorted.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Spyderidol:

    More changes. Not related to this scandal....I think.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/porsche-names-new-head-of-human-resources-2015-09-24-104854541

    On second thoughts: Muller most likely wanted Edig to accompany him to VW. There's a lot of messy HR stuff that will have to get sorted.

    I read in a different press report that Edig is going to VW Commercial Vehicles (trucks), whereas the "messy" situation is at the car division. 
    The guy replacing him at Porsche has been there before earlier in his career, so he knows the company.  
    This sounds like it could have been a routine, planned move which just happens to be taking place at this time, as you initially thought. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Ah! thanks


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    A little good news : VW Still More Popular Than GM, Chrysler

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/auto_industry/september_2015/vw_still_more_popular_than_gm_chrysler


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Mueller is confirmed as new CEO...


     
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