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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    https://electrek.co/2018/07/01/tesla-model-3-production-milestone-record-total-production-elon-musk/

    Here is a good example where things are heading. MKBHD generation just want their iPhone on wheels. And lots of others too.

     

    Best car he ever owned after his Pontiac G6.   Now that’s a rousing endorsement; it’s a better car than an old POS made by a bankrupt car company.  Still there’s nothing innovative in that Tesla.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    Apparently they reached 5,000 Sunday at 5am hours before the deadline...

    This long traditional financial analysis is telling us exactly what we know for years: this stock is priced for perfection and/or revolutionary breakthrough. You believe or you don’t.

     

    Do you 100% believe what you just wrote? Just a couple posts on top an objective analysis was done on Tesla's stock price valuation.

    Building cars in tents just to make their deadline is not a recipe for success.

    Realistically, they are still a quarter away from making 5000 cars a week comfortably without last minute push inside their factory.

     

     


    --

     

     

     

     

    Must be his 420 moment.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Do you realize that the 5,000 mark is a completely artificial number that the street has focused on? Of course they won’t do it steadily, Musk didn’t say they would immediately, the street was not even expecting it would be steady, so what is your point?

    Again, in the end, you believe and the stock is cheap, or you don’t and the stock will go to zero. There is no in between. All the negative arguments are valid, I am not refuting them. What I am saying is that in the end they don’t matter for stock valuation today. You cannot justify the stock price, there is no argument to have there. But it won’t change the mind of the many investors who believe.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Do you realize that the 5,000 mark is a completely artificial number that the street has focused on? Of course they won’t do it steadily, Musk didn’t say they would immediately, the street was not even expecting it would be steady, so what is your point?

    Again, in the end, you believe and the stock is cheap, or you don’t and the stock will go to zero. There is no in between. All the negative arguments are valid, I am not refuting them. What I am saying is that in the end they don’t matter for stock valuation today. You cannot justify the stock price, there is no argument to have there. But it won’t change the mind of the many investors who believe.

    It wasn’t the Street that set the 5,000 unit production goal, but Mr. Musk himself for the of Q2 18.  He reiterated that goal many times quite publicly.   It was also stated that 5,000/wk. is the point when the Model 3 becomes profitable.   That too was stated by Musk.  

    Following is an article from April with Musk’s goals for Tesla. https://www.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/elon-musk-promises-are-encouraging-for-tesla-14555507


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Did I say the street set the 5,000 mark? I said the street HAS FOCUSED ON. Do you really think it matters if last week Tesla produced 4,5000 cars or 5,500? Why do you keep missing the big picture? Musk only played the game of 5,000 so he could show the street they focus on the wrong thing. He can now tell them: we did your stupid 5,000, so now what? To which the bears now reply: yes but you can’t do it steadily. My point is that for the people who don’t believe, nothing Musk will do in the next 3 years will matter. You fit in that category. It is still a mystery what your agenda is but there clearly is one.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Did I say the street set the 5,000 mark? I said the street HAS FOCUSED ON. Do you really think it matters if last week Tesla produced 4,5000 cars or 5,500? Why do you keep missing the big picture? Musk only played the game of 5,000 so he could show the street they focus on the wrong thing. He can now tell them: we did your stupid 5,000, so now what? To which the bears now reply: yes but you can’t do it steadily. My point is that for the people who don’t believe, nothing Musk will do in the next 3 years will matter. You fit in that category. It is still a mystery what your agenda is but there clearly is one.

    Why has the Street FOCUSED on 5,000 units?  No reason other than something to do with management’s obligations to comply with the SEC’s disclosure requirements.  Musk stated that was the goal for Q2, so therefore that number represents an actionable disclosure to the market.  Inherently tied to that forecast is the profitability of the company.  If it can’t start generating positive cash flow it will need to tap the cap markets for additional expensive funding or risk becoming insolvent.  

    Unlike you as a Tesla owner and shareholder, as previously stated, one has no horse in this race other than following a group of tech and advanced manufacturing companies.  One is even more critical of some other companies in a related vertical.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:

    Best car he ever owned after his Pontiac G6.   Now that’s a rousing endorsement; it’s a better car than an old POS made by a bankrupt car company.  Still there’s nothing innovative in that Tesla.  


    My point is still valid. The iPhone generation want their iPhone on wheels. What he owned previously is irrelevant.

    We just see things completely different and there is no point in further discussing this. So let's just agree to disagree.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
    CGX car nut:

    Best car he ever owned after his Pontiac G6.   Now that’s a rousing endorsement; it’s a better car than an old POS made by a bankrupt car company.  Still there’s nothing innovative in that Tesla.  


    My point is still valid. The iPhone generation want their iPhone on wheels. What he owned previously is irrelevant.

    We just see things completely different and there is no point in further discussing this. So let's just agree to disagree.

    You seriously compare a Tesla with an iPhone? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Lots of my nerdy friends have mentioned several times that Tesla shouldn't be classified as a car but a gadget. I tend to agree.

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
    CGX car nut:

    Best car he ever owned after his Pontiac G6.   Now that’s a rousing endorsement; it’s a better car than an old POS made by a bankrupt car company.  Still there’s nothing innovative in that Tesla.  


    My point is still valid. The iPhone generation want their iPhone on wheels. What he owned previously is irrelevant.

    We just see things completely different and there is no point in further discussing this. So let's just agree to disagree.

    It is extremely relevant when he makes the claim that the Tesla is the best car.   Without having experienced driving and many other cars, this statement is an example of sample bias.   


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Kimi:

    Lots of my nerdy friends have mentioned several times that Tesla shouldn't be classified as a car but a gadget. I tend to agree.

     

    How many of them own a Tesla? Or an iPhone?


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    Kimi:

    Lots of my nerdy friends have mentioned several times that Tesla shouldn't be classified as a car but a gadget. I tend to agree.

     

    How many of them own a Tesla? Or an iPhone?

    Off the cuff: two or three, can't vouch for the iPhone.

    Even for a high car tax country, common negative seems to be quality, especially interior, compared to 5-series or similar. Also, range is an issue if you do not use it solely on main highway network in more populated area but that's old news, I guess.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    Did I say the street set the 5,000 mark? I said the street HAS FOCUSED ON. Do you really think it matters if last week Tesla produced 4,5000 cars or 5,500? Why do you keep missing the big picture? Musk only played the game of 5,000 so he could show the street they focus on the wrong thing. He can now tell them: we did your stupid 5,000, so now what? To which the bears now reply: yes but you can’t do it steadily. My point is that for the people who don’t believe, nothing Musk will do in the next 3 years will matter. You fit in that category. It is still a mystery what your agenda is but there clearly is one.

    Why has the Street FOCUSED on 5,000 units?  No reason other than something to do with management’s obligations to comply with the SEC’s disclosure requirements.  Musk stated that was the goal for Q2, so therefore that number represents an actionable disclosure to the market.  Inherently tied to that forecast is the profitability of the company.  If it can’t start generating positive cash flow it will need to tap the cap markets for additional expensive funding or risk becoming insolvent.  

    Unlike you as a Tesla owner and shareholder, as previously stated, one has no horse in this race other than following a group of tech and advanced manufacturing companies.  One is even more critical of some other companies in a related vertical.  

    Get your facts straight my friend, not only I do not own a Tesla car, but I also gladly do not own any Tesla shares, I only do long term investments in non single names, stocks bond alternative and PE, Tesla is just speculation at this stage. Unlike you I do not have any stake in this race, zero.

    Last week Goldman said they would produce 22,000 cars in Q2, they produced 40,000. Again, analyst have no clue how to cover Tesla as a company and even less clue as to explain or predict where the share price will go.

    The main reason Musk sets these goals imho is to motivate his troops to push them as much as possible. Once again, it is completely obvious that them reaching the 5,000 for example in early June or late July is completely irrelevant to the big picture. The street and media decided to make a big deal about it because it sells Smiley Musk even has its own Apple News section.

    I agree tough with your statement though that positive cash flow is the big elephant in the room, along with the need to tap the market again. But for these there is no visibility at this point. But history has shown Tesla has had no issue raising cash, thinking they will struggle doing so in the future is negative speculation at best.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:
    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    Did I say the street set the 5,000 mark? I said the street HAS FOCUSED ON. Do you really think it matters if last week Tesla produced 4,5000 cars or 5,500? Why do you keep missing the big picture? Musk only played the game of 5,000 so he could show the street they focus on the wrong thing. He can now tell them: we did your stupid 5,000, so now what? To which the bears now reply: yes but you can’t do it steadily. My point is that for the people who don’t believe, nothing Musk will do in the next 3 years will matter. You fit in that category. It is still a mystery what your agenda is but there clearly is one.

    Why has the Street FOCUSED on 5,000 units?  No reason other than something to do with management’s obligations to comply with the SEC’s disclosure requirements.  Musk stated that was the goal for Q2, so therefore that number represents an actionable disclosure to the market.  Inherently tied to that forecast is the profitability of the company.  If it can’t start generating positive cash flow it will need to tap the cap markets for additional expensive funding or risk becoming insolvent.  

    Unlike you as a Tesla owner and shareholder, as previously stated, one has no horse in this race other than following a group of tech and advanced manufacturing companies.  One is even more critical of some other companies in a related vertical.  

    Get your facts straight my friend, not only I do not own a Tesla car, but I also gladly do not own any Tesla shares, I only do long term investments in non single names, stocks bond alternative and PE, Tesla is just speculation at this stage. Unlike you I do not have any stake in this race, zero.

    Last week Goldman said they would produce 22,000 cars in Q2, they produced 40,000. Again, analyst have no clue how to cover Tesla as a company and even less clue as to explain or predict where the share price will go.

    The main reason Musk sets these goals imho is to motivate his troops to push them as much as possible. Once again, it is completely obvious that them reaching the 5,000 for example in early June or late July is completely irrelevant to the big picture. The street and media decided to make a big deal about it because it sells Smiley Musk even has its own Apple News section.

    I agree tough with your statement though that positive cash flow is the big elephant in the room, along with the need to tap the market again. But for these there is no visibility at this point. But history has shown Tesla has had no issue raising cash, thinking they will struggle doing so in the future is negative speculation at best.

    Why the anger if you neither own car or stock in Tesla?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    No anger, my frustration is towards people who blindly push their negative agenda against a visionary who is trying to push technology and humanity and tries to make our society better (and make loads of money in the process, nothing wrong with that). A world that muzzles their leaders and visionaries is just a remnant of the dark ages.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    No anger, my frustration is towards people who blindly push their negative agenda against a visionary who is trying to push technology and humanity and tries to make our society better (and make loads of money in the process, nothing wrong with that). A world that muzzles their leaders and visionaries is just a remnant of the dark ages.

    Okay.  Got it.  Differing opinions will not be tolerated because he is a visionary.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    No anger, my frustration is towards people who blindly push their negative agenda against a visionary who is trying to push technology and humanity and tries to make our society better (and make loads of money in the process, nothing wrong with that). A world that muzzles their leaders and visionaries is just a remnant of the dark ages.

    Not so sure about that, I always judge a man by how he treats his family Smiley but yes, he may be a visionary, maybe even a bit nuts (I don't know him personally but he may or may not be a genius) but he definitely seems to work hard to make his dreams happen. Still not sure he does that for humanity's sake or whatever but I admire him for his ideas, visions, perseverance and his ambition. I wish I had the same balls (and ambition) to risk everything but I don't. Kudos to him for that, no doubt about it. Smiley 

    It must be fascinating to work with someone like him, even if it (probably) can be stressful at times. Elon Musk is probably someone who can squeeze out the best of certain types of people if he doesn't offend and scare them away in the first place. Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    No anger, my frustration is towards people who blindly push their negative agenda against a visionary who is trying to push technology and humanity and tries to make our society better (and make loads of money in the process, nothing wrong with that). A world that muzzles their leaders and visionaries is just a remnant of the dark ages.

     

    No one muzzled him. Everyone ,listened to what he says. But he forgot whoever he said can and will be used to judged against his action.

    Visionaries are not except from scrutinizing. Witness Steve Jobs with Apple. Jeff Bezos with Amazon. Elon is not above that.

    The simple excuse of being a 'visionary' doesn't exempt him from being judged on conventional terms. especially on the stock market. Tesla have yet to so something to deserve even half of what it's current valuation. And we are not even close to being negative, just realistic. 

    And let's be real. Elon is not pushing technology to make humanity better. Far from it. He is only in it to make money. Id Elon is even half as noble as you claim he is, he would have donated all his shares to a non-profit entity.

    There is someone else who is a visionary and is in office right now. a certain political agenda with a different view wants to muzzled him instead of supporting his vision. 


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    No anger, my frustration is towards people who blindly push their negative agenda against a visionary who is trying to push technology and humanity and tries to make our society better (and make loads of money in the process, nothing wrong with that). A world that muzzles their leaders and visionaries is just a remnant of the dark ages.

     

    No one muzzled him. Everyone ,listened to what he says. But he forgot whoever he said can and will be used to judged against his action.

    Visionaries are not except from scrutinizing. Witness Steve Jobs with Apple. Jeff Bezos with Amazon. Elon is not above that.

    The simple excuse of being a 'visionary' doesn't exempt him from being judged on conventional terms. especially on the stock market. Tesla have yet to so something to deserve even half of what it's current valuation. And we are not even close to being negative, just realistic. 

    And let's be real. Elon is not pushing technology to make humanity better. Far from it. He is only in it to make money. Id Elon is even half as noble as you claim he is, he would have donated all his shares to a non-profit entity.

    There is someone else who is a visionary and is in office right now. a certain political agenda with a different view wants to muzzled him instead of supporting his vision. 

    Smiley Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    BTW, Elon has asked the Model 3 deposit holders for an extra non-refundable $2500 deposit on top of the original $1000 deposit.

    Sort of an easy, but unconventional way to mark another billion dollars on the books to make it look like they are making money and cash flow positive for the quarter. He is basically borrowing money interest free this way to finance the company.

    I guess he could theoretically ask the same amount every quarter from the pre-orders to book a billion revenue every quarter.............


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    BTW, Elon has asked the Model 3 deposit holders for an extra non-refundable $2500 deposit on top of the original $1000 deposit.

    Sort of an easy, but unconventional way to mark another billion dollars on the books to make it look like they are making money and cash flow positive for the quarter. He is basically borrowing money interest free this way to finance the company.

    I guess he could theoretically ask the same amount every quarter from the pre-orders to book a billion revenue every quarter.............

    His customers are gullible enough to pay him what he asks for, it seems...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Those customers don't actually have a choice. If Tesla fails then their money goes up in smoke. So in order to assure they can have their cars made, they have to pay him money to keep Tesla afloat.


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    another non-refundable deposit to keep things going? ... sounds like a ponzi scheme 

    thank goodness the rest of the industry is more serious and profesional than this...
    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    another non-refundable deposit to keep things going? ... sounds like a ponzi scheme 

    thank goodness the rest of the industry is more serious and profesional than this...
    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

    The non-refundable deposit for a confirmed order from a refundable reservation deposit isn’t the issue and it is standard policy for the company.  What has changed is that Musk opened the production reservation system to all US and Canadian reservation holders in the last few days.  Before Tesla would only open the confirmed order system to a select number of reservation holders for cars to be produced in the next few weeks.   The most recent orders may not be built for many, many months and that’s the crux of the issue.   This change in policy moved demand forward into Q2 without regard to the impact to financial performance in future quarters and reeks of massive financial window dressing for the past quarter.   

    Yesterday’s news from Tesla, considering the company finally met its Q4 2017 production goal of producing 5,000 Model 3 in a week.  Doug Field, Tesla’s head of Engineering, officially stepped down after taking a leave of absence from the company last month, before GA4 was set up in a temporary structure on a parking lot on the Fremont plant parking lot.  Tesla also announced it is suspending production through July 5, and presents this similar to the planned summer plant shutdowns made by other automakers.   However, those summer shutdowns are planned far in advance and are made for product and process improvements.   It’s been suggested that Tesla’s shutdown is needed to replenish inventory exhausted during its push to 7,000.

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Compared to 2017, Tesla sales in Germany have dropped by 33% in the first half of 2018.

    Just the beginning...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:

    Compared to 2017, Tesla sales in Germany have dropped by 33% in the first half of 2018.

    Just the beginning...

    EV market in France is up by 40% compared to last year with Renault Zoe still in pole position with half of the sales followed by Nissan Leaf and the BMW i3....Smiley

    for the hybrid cars, the GLC is still in pole position...Smiley

    where is Tesla?SmileySmiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    To be fair, the Renault Zoe is a 2 seater golfcar with fixed roof, could hardly be considered a car.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    To be fair, the Renault Zoe is a 2 seater golfcar with fixed roof, could hardly be considered a car.

    Similarly, this is the top selling vehicle in the States.

    https://www.littletikes.com/mas_assets/cache/image/a/c/9/2761.Jp


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    To be fair, the Renault Zoe is a 2 seater golfcar with fixed roof, could hardly be considered a car.

    LOL, it is economy car class which is the biggest sale segment in France...like twingo, fiat 500, and so and so.Smiley

    it is actually expensive for such category Smiley and they even proposed a proto racecar of it with more than 400hp...they will probably release it Smiley

    anyway, Zoe is probably as well the best seller in Europe for EV car...SmileySmiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    Those customers don't actually have a choice. If Tesla fails then their money goes up in smoke. So in order to assure they can have their cars made, they have to pay him money to keep Tesla afloat.

    The more they give the safer their money invest is Smiley


     
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