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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    nberry:

    There is nothing more sobering than showing a soon to be adolescent driver photographs of injuries received as a result of high speed driving. They’ll learn that speed compromises all the safety features of a vehicle. More often than not the injuries will be permanent or fatal.

    Tell your children who want cars they will start with a low powered car one which will discourage  racing and if after a couple of years without citations and no accidents you would consider a more powerful car. 

     

    This is such an American thing. Speed doesn't kill, stupidity does.

    Instead of actually teaching new drivers proper driving skills, they just side step the obvious problem and blame it blankly on speed. But then again the majority of the population can't drive so they have no where to start teaching better driving skills.

    The Speed is much higher in Germany's highways yet the fatality and accident rates is a tiny fraction of American's highways. They also happens to have a much more stringent and strict driving test. 

    Driving is NOT an entitlement, it's a privileged to be earned. What if 95% of the population failed the more stringent driving test? Well too bad, they just have to learn to be a better driver before earning their license. 

    Do you think driving a low power car will prevent them from 'racing'? That's a pipe dream. It's a mentality thing and power of the car has no bearing on whether one decide to 'race' someone else. And to correct that mentality it again starts with better teaching. 

    Safe driving starts with driver alertness. One can't be distracted. Look up, look far, look around. Pay attention to what other drivers around are doing, most accidents can be avoided if one pay attention and anticipate. 

    Speed really have no bearing. On the autobahn when one is doing 250-300km/hr, the sightline will be pretty much 1/2 mile ahead. Anticipate if someone might pull out to pass. If one is paying attention, the speed would slowed enough to avoid accidents. Or properly check mirrors to see if there are fast approaching traffic before pulling out. German drivers are well trained before they even get their licenses, and they have the discipline to follow those rules. Americans drivers mostly have the me first mentality and they don't care and simply just pull out whenever they feel like, or expect everyone to give way while they are travelling. Hence why there are many more accidents even at a much lower speed on their highways. They also do not like to obey the keep right except passing rule. 

    I guess since everyone can't drive in America, hence the rise of 'autonomous driving car' mail

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Nick, what are you smoking? There is a reason for speed signs to be posted in every country on the planet and it isn't to reduce gas consumption.  Lesser powerd cars do have an impact on discouraging racing. VW's, Miata's or bulky sedan generally don't race.

    I agree teaching driver safety is paramount but remember, humans are driving the vehicles(at least for now). The reaction, perception, and sight level varies significantly among humans. Because you may have good reaction time or situation awareness doesn't mean your son has it despite all the training you given him. To think otherwise is pure folly.

    Also, your bias against US drivers is misplaced. Like all other countries we have our good and bad drivers. To generalize and state Canadian or European drivers are better drivers displays an ignorance of the facts.

    Finally, regarding showing young drivers horrific pictures of injuries suffered in automobile accidents, it has been proven to be an effective deterrent to careless and distracted driving. Public service commercials are aired often depicted the results of careless and speeding driving.

    With all that said, don't let your young drivers watch the Ford vs Ferrari motion picture.smiley


    --

    Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Carlos from Spain:

    The photographs may work for us but doesn't work too well with adolescents though, they don't see risk like we do, they will think that it will never happen to them and do it anyway. I lost friends in bad motorbike accidents and even that didn't stop me racing on the streets doing the same thing that got them killed, image the impact of just photos of anonymous people.

    Only thing you can do is limit the opportunity they have to take such risks until they are more mature, like the second thing you mentioned about getting a slower car for them and only if they show control, get a better one later on. 

    Hope I don't bore anybody on the neuroscientific background of the subject but in case some find it interesting, the brain doesn't fully develop until 25 years of age on average, but the interesting thing is that the last part to develop is precisely the frontal cortex, which is where emotional control, risk assessment, and all the other higher order cognitive functions are located, this serves as an evolutionary advantage as this makes the frontal cortex (and our higher commands functions) more dependant on environment and less on genes hence more adaptive and flexible to the current environmental needs, and humans are the only animals who have an adolescent stage between childhood and adulthood, but their dopamine reward system doesn't even function normally yet, they need much higher rewards to get the same pleasure reaction than adults, couple that with a sense of invincibility and predisposition to risk taking, and they result explains the testimonies many of us have posted in this thread of our younger years and speed.

    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

    Thanks for that explanation  Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

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    Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    nberry:

    Nick, what are you smoking? There is a reason for speed signs to be posted in every country on the planet and it isn't to reduce gas consumption.  Lesser powerd cars do have an impact on discouraging racing. VW's, Miata's or bulky sedan generally don't race.

    Can you remind me why the 55mph speed limited was established again? It's definitely not for safer driving.

    There are time and space for appropriate speed in any given area. Tight city core with loads of pedestrians and mindless cyclists? Yes a speed limit is good. Empty country roads or wide Interstates? The speed limit can safely be raised up if the drivers are more attentive. It's not like drivers are keeping it below the limit right now. Speed limits are set at a threshold lower than most of the traveling speed, and it's there for a reason, revenue. Plain and simple. Speeding tickets are a great source of 'legal' revenue for the city. Sorry the truth hurts. But it's a fact and the truth.

    And if you think Miatas and VWs don't race, you are sorely mistaken. 

    I agree teaching driver safety is paramount but remember, humans are driving the vehicles(at least for now). The reaction, perception, and sight level varies significantly among humans. Because you may have good reaction time or situation awareness doesn't mean your son has it despite all the training you given him. To think otherwise is pure folly.

    And that's why there is a slow lane. It's for trucks that can't keep up with flow of traffic and for drivers who can't keep up with traffic also. Back to the old simple rule of thumb, keep right unless passing. Cops are targeting the wrong people on the highway, they should have focus on inattentive drivers that don't keep right or not paying attention to driving.

    Also, your bias against US drivers is misplaced. Like all other countries we have our good and bad drivers. To generalize and state Canadian or European drivers are better drivers displays an ignorance of the facts.

    Get on the I5, check out those 5-6-7 traffic lanes, and see for yourself Smiley No one use the keep right thing, neither do they check for traffic before pulling out, and they also weave in and out and passes on the right. And there are also those that are reading newspaper, putting on makeup, texting, having sex, etc, you name it it's all there all around you. it happens to a lesser degree in Europe, but most of Canada is just as bad, but the police have finally waken up and start ticketing people that don't keep right and texting while driving. 

    Finally, regarding showing young drivers horrific pictures of injuries suffered in automobile accidents, it has been proven to be an effective deterrent to careless and distracted driving. Public service commercials are aired often depicted the results of careless and speeding driving.

    Yes it good to show what would happened in a serious automobile accidents. But don't label them as speed related. It's mostly driver alertness related. Not paying attention while driving. If they speed WHILE not paying attention, then those might happened. Driving is a serious thing and they need to know that they need to pay full attention while driving. Speed never kills, it's the carelessness that kills. If one is not paying attention, going 20mph in downtown is just as dangerous as going 60 on the highway. Heck, that 20mph in downtown is MORE dangerous than doing 60 on the highway, he could have bulldozed and kill a dozen pedestrians while a crash at 60mph could only be a single car accident for himself.

    With all that said, don't let your young drivers watch the Ford vs Ferrari motion picture.smiley

    It has the wrong movie title. It's not really about Ford vs Ferrari, but a Ken Miles biography. I watched it already, liked the movie but I have a major problem with the wrong title.

     

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

     
    Nick, if I remember correctly, you own a CUP and a GT2 RS Clubsport. Does the video make sense and if so, is it because "Road America" is a particular fast track ?
    I've been to Most recently and the Clubsport would not keep up with the CUPs, but it might be due to the driver

    Thanks
    Rick


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    schmoell:

     

    Nick, if I remember correctly, you own a CUP and a GT2 RS Clubsport. Does the video make sense and if so, is it because "Road America" is a particular fast track ?
    I've been to Most recently and the Clubsport would not keep up with the CUPs, but it might be due to the driver

    Thanks
    Rick


    actually I don’t own a Cup car, only the GT4 Clubsport, and I had also turned down the GT2RS Clubsport, I wanted the 935 and had I taken the GT2RS CS, it will just be a constant reminder to the fact that Porsche don’t deem me good enough to get a 935.

    To answer your question, the Clubsport will always be the faster car with the same driver. More HP and more downforce. But the Clubsport/935 is a newer car, while most drivers have plenty of experience piloting a Cup and get used to the handling, same cannot be said with the Clubsport/935. One will be going into every corner at a much faster speed and with extra weight brake points will need adjusting. With much more torque the exit throttle application will also be a new thing. 
     

    also don’t forget, the Clubsport is a much more expensive car, so someone people will drive it with more reserve

     

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Thanks Nick and sorry for being confused about your cars


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    last time at Mugello, during training of the Swiss Sports Cup, we were watching the Clubsport against the Cup .

    I think Whoopsy knows the driver of the Clubsport , a 918 owner that has a daughter who raced GT4 . He was faster on the straight , passing the cup's very easily, but always got passed again in the corner bits . So on a full lap he was slower .

    Don't know how much that had to do with the driver . 

    We can ask The Farmer , as he was driving against that clubsport 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    I really don't get these GT2 Clubsports. The GT3 Cup is a better racer in every respect, and I assume it costs a fraction of it. I assume you can even get a used GT3 R for that money?


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Porker:

    I really don't get these GT2 Clubsports. The GT3 Cup is a better racer in every respect, and I assume it costs a fraction of it. I assume you can even get a used GT3 R for that money?

    Outside of being used for actually sanctioned events where you have to follow a specific rulebook I don't know why someone wouldn't just marry the two if they were looking at something to play around with. A GT3R with a GT2RS engine would run circles around all of the aforementioned cars. A be a lot of fun as well. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Gnil:

    last time at Mugello, during training of the Swiss Sports Cup, we were watching the Clubsport against the Cup .

    I think Whoopsy knows the driver of the Clubsport , a 918 owner that has a daughter who raced GT4 . He was faster on the straight , passing the cup's very easily, but always got passed again in the corner bits . So on a full lap he was slower .

    Don't know how much that had to do with the driver . 

    We can ask The Farmer , as he was driving against that clubsport 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     

    Yes I do, great friend of mine. 😀

     

     

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Mithras:
    Porker:

    I really don't get these GT2 Clubsports. The GT3 Cup is a better racer in every respect, and I assume it costs a fraction of it. I assume you can even get a used GT3 R for that money?

    Outside of being used for actually sanctioned events where you have to follow a specific rulebook I don't know why someone wouldn't just marry the two if they were looking at something to play around with. A GT3R with a GT2RS engine would run circles around all of the aforementioned cars. A be a lot of fun as well. 

    A guy I know has turbo charged a GT3 Cup (997), car has now around 900 hp (claim). No chance to keep up, not on the straights and not on the track. Pretty reliable as well.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Porker:

    I really don't get these GT2 Clubsports. The GT3 Cup is a better racer in every respect, and I assume it costs a fraction of it. I assume you can even get a used GT3 R for that money?


    don’t look at it as a pure race car.

    it is developed along the lines of the GT4 Clubsport, like a track toy. Some clients outgrow the GT4 CS already and asked for a faster car.

    Like the GT4CS, the goal was to make a turn key track car with easy and less maintenance than a Cup car.

    Cup car, GT3R have engines and gearboxes that need regular rebuilds, these Clubsports have street car engines and gearboxes that requires little to none. Like an oil change every 6000km and that’s about it.

    neither were developed for any race series, but SRO approached Porsche and build a series out of them, hence the GT4 class and the new GT2 class.

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Whoopsy:
    Porker:

    I really don't get these GT2 Clubsports. The GT3 Cup is a better racer in every respect, and I assume it costs a fraction of it. I assume you can even get a used GT3 R for that money?


    don’t look at it as a pure race car.

    it is developed along the lines of the GT4 Clubsport, like a track toy. Some clients outgrow the GT4 CS already and asked for a faster car.

    Like the GT4CS, the goal was to make a turn key track car with easy and less maintenance than a Cup car.

    Cup car, GT3R have engines and gearboxes that need regular rebuilds, these Clubsports have street car engines and gearboxes that requires little to none. Like an oil change every 6000km and that’s about it.

    neither were developed for any race series, but SRO approached Porsche and build a series out of them, hence the GT4 class and the new GT2 class.

     

    I get that, but if you're fanatical enough to get into a non street legal 'racer', I'd always think you'd want an actual racer.. At least the GT4 CS you can use in VLN etc, I assume that will not be the case for the GT2 CS?


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Soon it should. 
     

    it is already qualified for Porsche Club racing here in North America, I would imagine other sanctioning bodies will incorporate the car to more series. 
     

    The GT4CS didn’t get included into any racing series in the beginning after all. 


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Whoopsy:
    Porker:

    I really don't get these GT2 Clubsports. The GT3 Cup is a better racer in every respect, and I assume it costs a fraction of it. I assume you can even get a used GT3 R for that money?


    don’t look at it as a pure race car.

    it is developed along the lines of the GT4 Clubsport, like a track toy. Some clients outgrow the GT4 CS already and asked for a faster car.

    Like the GT4CS, the goal was to make a turn key track car with easy and less maintenance than a Cup car.

    Cup car, GT3R have engines and gearboxes that need regular rebuilds, these Clubsports have street car engines and gearboxes that requires little to none. Like an oil change every 6000km and that’s about it.

    neither were developed for any race series, but SRO approached Porsche and build a series out of them, hence the GT4 class and the new GT2 class.

     

    Yeah but a GT3R or Cup Car with a stock GT2RS engine and gearbox take away all of those issues. You just have the much better chassis/suspension/brakes of the full on racecar and a de-tuned (but still much more powerful) engine in the 700hp GT2 lump. 


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    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    The GT2RS Clubsport already have the full Cup front clip and Cup suspension, but I have to check about the rear.

    My GT4CS has the full Cup front clip but GT4 rears.

    Chassis wise they all the same, the Cup, GT3R and GT2RS CS.  Same body in white and exact same parts for everything forward of the windshield. 


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Gnil:

    last time at Mugello, during training of the Swiss Sports Cup, we were watching the Clubsport against the Cup .

    I think Whoopsy knows the driver of the Clubsport , a 918 owner that has a daughter who raced GT4 . He was faster on the straight , passing the cup's very easily, but always got passed again in the corner bits . So on a full lap he was slower .

    Don't know how much that had to do with the driver . 

    We can ask The Farmer , as he was driving against that clubsport 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     

    Indeed I did. Actually started side by side with him in the endurance race. No chance what so ever in the start or on the long strait and quite fast for one or two laps, but.... In a full race distance and overall the Cup car is faster around the track with similar driving skill behind the wheel. The CS is just too heavy and tires and breaks don’t really cope with the full race distance. But what a qually carSmileySmiley

    But still, he was beating quit a few cup cars in that race (not meSmiley)

    And Eric, sorry to hear about your 997 gearbox problems. Was it that one you used at Mugello?Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    The farmer:
    And Eric, sorry to hear about your 997 gearbox problems. Was it that one you used at Mugello?Smiley

    The problem is getting solved . And yes , it is that car . 

     


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Porker:
    I get that, but if you're fanatical enough to get into a non street legal 'racer', I'd always think you'd want an actual racer.. At least the GT4 CS you can use in VLN etc, I assume that will not be the case for the GT2 CS?

    Some guys have a Cup but don't race it . They just tyke it to different track days . Maintenance on them is big , even if on the last generations total rebuilt of the gearbox and engine is not as frequent anymore ( before was one a year ) 

    With the CS there is hardly any maintenance , same as on a regular GT3 . You can argue that a Cup cost about 200k and a CS is  ???     That would  leaves quite some margin for maintenance .

    Also for the Cup you need probably mechanics to do all the adjustments all the time , and for each track different settings . Not so on a CS . 

    It is aimed at different people . The Cup for racers , the CS for amateurs wanting to have some fun .

    And the CS does look very good Smiley


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    It's for salon racers then. :)

    I think the Cup is a much prettier car actually, especially the MR! The 935 though is another story, very cool look.


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Porsche's term is gentleman racer smiley

    I think the RSR looks the best. Then the 935. Then the GT3R. It's a toss up for me for Cup and GT2RS CS.

    RSR is the unicorn, Porsche don't readily sell them to individuals. 

    Cup car is plentiful, especially used ones, even the GT3R can be had, I know of at least 2 guys that bought a GT3R brand new too as a track toy. 

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    "salon racer" and "gentleman racer" fits perfectly to me; and I agree, it's hard to get a GT2 CS and the RSR seems out of reach. There are a few GT3R available over here, not too expensive - but I don't understand the running costs. CUP cars (997/991) are plenty and a lot of infrastructure for service and stuff is easily available


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    I absolutely love these exaggerated Cup MR's.

    1009216295b360c5357b19cb2cf88f8cb319b589.jpg


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    schmoell:

    "salon racer" and "gentleman racer" fits perfectly to me; and I agree, it's hard to get a GT2 CS and the RSR seems out of reach. There are a few GT3R available over here, not too expensive - but I don't understand the running costs. CUP cars (997/991) are plenty and a lot of infrastructure for service and stuff is easily available

     

    At least they made 200 GT2RS CS, there isn't even 100 of the RSR made for the 991 version.

    The current Cup and GT3R have the longer rebuild intervals, but it still needed to be do, it's a when not a if. Think it's up to 100 hours now if my memory serves me correctly.

    Both the GT4 and 718 CS, plus the GT3RS CS, use street engine and gearbox so no rebuild is necessary, and if they break, the replacement engine/transmission, will be much easier to come by. Literally can be ordered at any dealer's parts counter, the Clubsports only needed regular oil and filter change and that's it.

    Cup cars, especially second hand ones, are cheap and easy to come by, and for properly setup ones, one can just unload their own car and run all day. But the 30k rebuild cost is always hanging right there. Vs next to nothing oil and filter. Cup car and GT3R  also needs it's rear drive shafts replaced very regularly, not that the Clubsports don't need but they are at a longer intervals. Drive shafts do break at an alarming rate for Cup cars.

    That's the only major difference and on most people's mind. Rest of the maintenance are the same for all of Porsche's race/track cars, joint inspections and lubrications. 

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    So yeah, Weissach initially was quite adamant that the 935 was ONLY for Motorsport customers, as retail customers have their own limited edition cars. Guess PCNA overruled them mail

    How in the world did this guy gets one and not me I don't know. 

    Just a little rant.

     

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Very strange how he could get one, look like youtube presence makes a difference. It still annoys me I could not get a 911 Speedstar. Now there are pleny for sale over list price in Germany. Even one sold by my dealer (he got 3) is now for sale over list price. Irritating


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    just a game...

    when I saw this guy bragging about his 935...I thought PAG you are just nuts! so many more deserving people to get it and you give it to the typical show off millionaire....he got a lot of Bugatti so probably some leads in the PAG board.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017)

    Whoopsy:

    So yeah, Weissach initially was quite adamant that the 935 was ONLY for Motorsport customers, as retail customers have their own limited edition cars. Guess PCNA overruled them mail

    How in the world did this guy gets one and not me I don't know. 

    Just a little rant.

     

     

    We can all be sure he'll properly drive it, back and forth in his garage. Smiley


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


     
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