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    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Porsche says each model appeals to different types of buyers.



    Actually that's almost the only statement in the article which makes sense
    I'm bored with this "which car is better" BS - with cars quite close in performance like the Cayman S and the 3.6 Carrera it's a matter of personal preference and nothing else. For customer A the Cayman S is the better car while for customer B it's the Carrera.
    The nicest comparo I've seen so far was done by EVO a while ago (though featuring the Boxster S as the counterpart to the 3.6 Carrera). They tested both cars on public roads and on the track - only mini differences in performance if you go by the numbers. In so far you could say the Cayman S is the better buy (if you just look at the purchase price/performance ratio). But they also managed to describe pretty well the different driving dynamics of both cars - and here it simply comes down to individual preference (rear-engine vs. mid-engine driving dynamics).
    Personally I wouldn't pick a 3.6 Carrera over a Cayman S (like stated already by German, VGA and Dreamcar), but I never would say that the Cayman S is the better car, just because I'd prefer it.

    @ toplad: get over it, Cayman and Boxster share the same technical platform just like a Carrera Cab and a Carrera Coupé does Of course a coupé version of the same platform always is somewhat more rigid and of course the driver can sense that, but that doesn't make the Coupé a proprietary product line IMO. Also I'm sure (without having scientific evidence) that the performance gap (if any) between an equally powered Boxster and Cayman is even narrower than the gap between Carrera Cab/Coupé - finally the Boxster has been designed as a two seater open car in the first place with a much smaller cabin compared to the 2+2 seater carrera - hence the disadvantage of the missing fix roof should be smaller compared to the Carrera.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Porsche says each model appeals to different types of buyers.



    Actually that's almost the only statement in the article which makes sense
    I'm bored with this "which car is better" BS - with cars quite close in performance like the Cayman S and the 3.6 Carrera it's a matter of personal preference and nothing else. For customer A the Cayman S is the better car while for customer B it's the Carrera.
    The nicest comparo I've seen so far was done by EVO a while ago (though featuring the Boxster S as the counterpart to the 3.6 Carrera). They tested both cars on public roads and on the track - only mini differences in performance if you go by the numbers. In so far you could say the Cayman S is the better buy (if you just look at the purchase price/performance ratio). But they also managed to describe pretty well the different driving dynamics of both cars - and here it simply comes down to individual preference (rear-engine vs. mid-engine driving dynamics).
    Personally I wouldn't pick a 3.6 Carrera over a Cayman S (like stated already by German, VGA and Dreamcar), but I never would say that the Cayman S is the better car, just because I'd prefer it.

    @ toplad: get over it, Cayman and Boxster share the same technical platform just like a Carrera Cab and a Carrera Coupé does Of course a coupé version of the same platform always is somewhat more rigid and of course the driver can sense that, but that doesn't make the Coupé a proprietary product line IMO. Also I'm sure (without having scientific evidence) that the performance gap (if any) between an equally powered Boxster and Cayman is even narrower than the gap between Carrera Cab/Coupé - finally the Boxster has been designed as a two seater open car in the first place with a much smaller cabin compared to the 2+2 seater carrera - hence the disadvantage of the missing fix roof should be smaller compared to the Carrera.



    Porsche persists to make R-engine cars,911 maybe the one model or productive cars.Why don't the other car factories make R-engine cars?The others are all seeking for 50:50 front-to-rear weight.And 911 tells than 38:62 is another way for those drivers with better driving skill.

    What will happen if a 310hp cayman beat a Carrera?What if a 414 hp cayman beat a GT3?No matter what the result is, 911 will still be 911,R-engine,it remains to be unique and classical.But if a 911 is beaten by a cayman with the same power,that means Porsche defeats Porsche!Sounds Strange.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Thanks for the article toplad, thouroughly enjoyed it. The rest of the literature on offer from the 911 and Boxster camps is hilarious, yet predictable. Easy_rider you're just like the rest of the gang - "my 911 is more rewarding because you have to be so skilled to get it through a corner blah blah". And what would a post on the Cayman board be without Mrs Dreamcar's thoughts on the matter.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    1) The Cayman is a Boxster with a fixed roof.

    2) Coupe versions almost always DO handle better than their converitble kin. As someone said, more chassis rigidity, etc.

    3) The Cayman owner can't put the roof down and enjoy the beautiful weather and scenery. Trade-offs. So far, I choose 90% of the handling WITHOUT the top.

    4) 911 owners (in general) will never admit the Cayman is as competent (or more), or else they would be driving one instead of a 911.

    So why do we debate when no one is going to be changing their opinions?

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Let's see if I can get certain Cayman enthusiasts opinions right.

    911 OWNERS
    They are elitist snobs who consider themselves to be on a far superior level to anyone else. That's why they buy 911's, as a status symbol. Why else? It's an archaic design and you obviously need driving skills better than anyone else to be able to master it. At least, that's what they think.

    BOXSTER OWNERS
    They have generally very poor driver skills, why else would they want such a wobbly, soft so-called sports car. Their ideal driving road is top down posing along Brighton seafront (which as any Boxster owner knows, is the gay centre of Britain) trying to attract a nice young man to impress and chat up.

    CAYMAN OWNERS
    The Cayman is the pinnacle of the Porsche model range. Any resemblance to the Boxster is purely co-incidental, after all it has as much in common with the Boxster as a Eurofighter has to a Sopwith Camel. It is only really appreciated by discerning enthusiasts with Formula 1 level driving skills, which of course any Cayman owner has. The car is a true supercar, equivalent if not better than a Carrera GT.

    RENNTEAM
    This is a forum primarily for 911 snobs, with Boxster owners tagging along like groupies at a pop concert. 911 owning Rennteamers feel threatened by the Cayman, because they would really like to own one but feel unable to due to the loss of image and status that would inflict on them. Being in awe of 911 owners, Boxster people just agree, of course, without really knowing what they are talking about. Both camps therefore run down the car at every opportunity, insist it is grossly overpriced so much so that only a mug would buy one. It's ugly. It is also slow because the car is so underpowered. They even try and insist that the Cayman is in some way related to the Boxster, which is silly, of course. True Cayman enthusiasts don't support Rennteam because of this prejudice, so they flock to Caymanclub.net which is a much better, unbiaised forum, with, therefore, posts of a much higher standard than here. Rumours exist that anyone who dares to post anything negative there is ejected, but that's fine of course as such riff-raff can't know what they are talking about anyway.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    LoL Dreamcar - you're finally seeing the light

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Porsche says each model appeals to different types of buyers.



    Actually that's almost the only statement in the article which makes sense
    I'm bored with this "which car is better" BS - with cars quite close in performance like the Cayman S and the 3.6 Carrera it's a matter of personal preference and nothing else. For customer A the Cayman S is the better car while for customer B it's the Carrera.
    The nicest comparo I've seen so far was done by EVO a while ago (though featuring the Boxster S as the counterpart to the 3.6 Carrera). They tested both cars on public roads and on the track - only mini differences in performance if you go by the numbers. In so far you could say the Cayman S is the better buy (if you just look at the purchase price/performance ratio). But they also managed to describe pretty well the different driving dynamics of both cars - and here it simply comes down to individual preference (rear-engine vs. mid-engine driving dynamics).
    Personally I wouldn't pick a 3.6 Carrera over a Cayman S (like stated already by German, VGA and Dreamcar), but I never would say that the Cayman S is the better car, just because I'd prefer it.

    @ toplad: get over it, Cayman and Boxster share the same technical platform just like a Carrera Cab and a Carrera Coupé does Of course a coupé version of the same platform always is somewhat more rigid and of course the driver can sense that, but that doesn't make the Coupé a proprietary product line IMO. Also I'm sure (without having scientific evidence) that the performance gap (if any) between an equally powered Boxster and Cayman is even narrower than the gap between Carrera Cab/Coupé - finally the Boxster has been designed as a two seater open car in the first place with a much smaller cabin compared to the 2+2 seater carrera - hence the disadvantage of the missing fix roof should be smaller compared to the Carrera.




    Get over what exactly???

    Of course the Caymans based on the Boxster, never claimed it wasn't and never said it was a "proprietary product line" either???? So I don't know where that's come from

    My only point is the roof makes a noticeable difference, in the way the car feels and drives the advantages of a stiffer car I listed earlier in the thread(and are well known).For some reason dreamcar can't seem to grasp this because it doesn't fit in with his polarised view that the Boxster S his is "dream car". I have high regard for the Boxster (which I've just bought), but the Cayman offers a more feel some and hardcore package and anyone takes one out and drives the thing will know within a few miles on the road or track.

    Maybe your should actually read the my post and not jump to conclusions


    Regards

    PS. DC, your last post makes you look really childish, please grow up

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    If the Cayman represents the best 'design concept' of what Porsche can produce (i.e. 2 seater, mid-engined, RWD), then (1) why doesn't Porsche give it the major engine performance upgrade, rear LSD and sports suspension choices and (2) why does Porsche continue to invest (read 'waste') millions of Euros continuously developing the GT3, RS, TT and GT2 platforms? Doesn't the company's action (or even inaction) speak volumes?

    I guess this is where the same, tired argument that "this would eat into 911 sales" gets wheeled onto the stage...Don't you think we should credit Porsche with just a LITTLE more intelligence than that...?

    Porsche regards the 911 variants as its flagship models (the CGT now being discontinued) and one can only assume that the company knows just a LITTLE BIT more than us about what it is doing....

    In any case, provided that people buy the products signifying their approval of the company's approach, why should it change its ways?

    @mlin: thanks for describing me as 'one of the gang'. I always appreciate the wisdom and clarity such comments bring to any debate.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    PS. DC, your last post makes you look really childish, please grow up



    Unfortunately that's the impression that yourself and others like you create here. If you want, call it ridicule. You've brought it on yourself. Maybe you should review the content of your own posts rather than be so eager to criticise others. Let me remind you of some of the comments made in this very thread which prompted me to make my so-called "childish" post. If you can't take it, don't give it.

    You yourself in the past have commented on the alleged prejudice here against the Cayman. It doesn't exist, IMO.

    Mlin and bubblegum (some time ago before he got banned) made insinuations with regard to the sexual orientation of Boxster owners. Mlin has done it in this very thread referring to me as "Mrs dreamcar". No one here asks or is entitled to have such personal and insulting comments levelled against them.

    You have said in this very thread "silly comments like Boxster with a fixed roof blah,blah" - what else is it then? They weren't my words but Autocar's that you subsequently criticised me for making. You apparantly overlooked that I also quoted their words "one of the world's best coupes" in your eagerness to jump down my throat.

    I agree entirely with your conclusion that a fixed head coupe is more rigid than a convertible based on the same design with the beneficial effect on handling. That's blindingly obvious. That doesn't make the Cayman a better car for those that prefer an open top to the handling benefits, or vice versa. (which in the 987's case is marginal anyway)

    You've insinuated that I have poor driving abilities,("if I wasn't such a [beep] driver") that I go "busy mincing about in my Boxster like a big girls blouse". Where is the justification in those offensive comments? You know nothing about me or my driving abilities.

    Yet again I remind you that I have never, ever said that the Boxster is a better car than the Cayman. No, I don't understand the price differential, even more so now that both cars have the same engine and IMO the curved roof can look slightly awkward from some angles. But other than that it's a fine looking, great driving car.


    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Get over what exactly???

    Of course the Caymans based on the Boxster, never claimed it wasn't and never said it was a "proprietary product line" either???? So I don't know where that's come from



    I've been referring to your earlier post:
    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Even now silly comments like "Boxster with a fixed roof blah,blah " etc still prevail.


    It's not blah blah it's a fact.

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    My only point is the roof makes a noticeable difference, in the way the car feels and drives the advantages of a stiffer car I listed earlier in the thread(and are well known).



    We can agree on the general statement that a fixed roof makes a difference in structural rigidity of the car, which can be sensed by the driver.
    I understood that your comparo featured a 986 S vs. Cayman S - the difference wouldn't have been that big if you'd have compared a Cayman S with a 987 S (which is "stiffer" compared to it's predecessor and IMO is an overall sportier ride especially due to improvements in the suspension department).

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    For some reason dreamcar can't seem to grasp this because it doesn't fit in with his polarised view that the Boxster S his is "dream car".


    I'm not aware of a single post in which DC has stated that the Boxster is superior to a Cayman
    "Polarisation" is OK to a certain extent as long as one refers to his own individual preferences (you might state that you have more fun driving a Cayman S compared to a 3.6 Carrera just like I know, that I have more fun driving a Boxster S compared to a 3.6 Carrera cab).
    But to conclude that one out of two different sportscar models of the same car manufacturer and with pretty close performance numbers is superior to the other per se (and that seems to be the tenor of the quoted article) is BS imo.

    I sometimes have the impression that those who don't like to live with the "stigma" of driving a so-called entry level Porsche try to compensate the lesser car-prestige by stating that their cars are "better" in terms of concept/driving dynamics etc. (similar to the 944/968 crowd 15-20 years ago ).
    Due to PAG's marketing strategy there will be no "entry level Porsche" which is "better" (in terms of numbers on paper) than the Carrera (not even with similar pricing).
    Personally I don't believe that a (more expensive) "RS" version of the 987 platform would cannibalise Carrera-sales (and I would be the first to put my name on the dotted line ), but PAG seems not to believe in it's own propaganda (stating that each model appeals to a different audience).

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    You're spoiling the Porsche Owner experience for me guys - I thought we were ALL better than this!
    I really don't care who likes what, and the bickering isn't funny any more.
    I really would like to see PDK introduced soon. At least it would give us something new to discuss!

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    the bickering isn't funny any more.




    I agree. It isn't funny.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    .


    It's not blah blah it's a fact.I sometimes have the impression that those who don't like to live with the "stigma" of driving a so-called entry level Porsche try to compensate the lesser car-prestige by stating that their cars are "better" in terms of concept/driving dynamics etc. (similar to the 944/968 crowd 15-20 years ago ).




    Do feel the stigma of not owning the CGT or GT2?


    Aren't you just posting this snob rubbish to remind Boxster and Cayman owners that you own the one that's the top of the tree in car terms . There is no stigma as far as I'm aware; the only issue is when people like you try to my out that anyone who doesn't own a 911 should be embarrassed. My new Cayman was similar money to a second hand 997, so I don't feel bad at all. I'm so glad to say when I owned my 911 I never thought anything as snobby or stupid, it just goes to show why some Porsche owners get called wankers with that sort of attitude even in other countries.

    wtsnet

    Of course your right, it's just DC really gets up my noise.


    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    I've only seen one Cayman on the road in metro Detroit and it was being driven by a chick.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Woolfe, Top Gear made the Stig, but you are Rennteams Stigma maker.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    Woolfe said:
    I dont know if this will add to the quality of the debate



    Unfortunately there is no quality of debate here, unlike the other boards, because certain individuals seem to be unable to either tolerate an alternative viewpoint or differentiate "criticism" from "prejudice" or "snobbery" (sorry I've used some long words which these same individuals might not understand) but for the article :-


    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:
    Quote:
    Woolfe said:
    I dont know if this will add to the quality of the debate



    Unfortunately there is no quality of debate here, unlike the other boards, because certain individuals seem to be unable to either tolerate an alternative viewpoint or differentiate "criticism" from "prejudice" or "snobbery" (sorry I've used some long words which these same individuals might not understand) but for the article :-





    For god sake, shut up You big girl!

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    For god sake, shut up You big girl!



    Toplad, are you really that short of intelligence that you are only capable of throwing banal and childish insults at people? You do yourself no favours. You act as if you belong in a school playground, not here on Rennteam.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Do feel the stigma of not owning the CGT or GT2?



    Lol, yes I can feel it - it's so painful

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Aren't you just posting this snob rubbish to remind Boxster and Cayman owners that you own the one that's the top of the tree in car terms . There is no stigma as far as I'm aware; the only issue is when people like you try to my out that anyone who doesn't own a 911 should be embarrassed.



    LoL - too funny, just like a Pawlow reflex It's you who is dressing this shoe (like we say in Germany) not me You seem to have missed that I'm a very happy Boxster owner - fantastic car and thousand smiles per mile
    You seem to be so blinded by your paranoia regarding all those "snobs" that you completely fail to differentiate between subjective assessments and objective data. For example why do you put Easy_Rider into the snob camp (I can assure you he's anything else than that ) just because
    he finds it more rewarding for him to drive a rear-engine car What's wrong with that ? Is someone a snob because he prefers blonde girls over brunettes ? (I just want to have both )

    If it makes you feel any better: I'm looking forward to give the snobs a run for their money on the track this weekend Should I humiliate a GT3 I promise to post a new thread "987 S vs. 997 GT3 report - why a 987S is the better car"

    Bottom line: relax, have fun driving your car, enjoy the pics in the carmags rather than those pointless pseudo-scientific comparos and pleeeease stop this uncalled personal comments about other well respected members

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    I'm looking forward to give the snobs a run for their money on the track this weekend Should I humiliate a GT3 I promise to post a new thread "987 S vs. 997 GT3 report - why a 987S is the better car"




    Enjoy the weekend, porsche-jeck, sounds like real fun. I look forward to reading your aforementioned report on the 997 Board......

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:

    Enjoy the weekend, porsche-jeck, sounds like real fun. I look forward to reading your aforementioned report on the 997 Board......



    Perhaps I better distribute the report via PM only to those who sign off a Non Disclosure Agreement beforehand
    Spaß muß sein I'm just making fun - I can't take this stuff too serious to be honest. At the end we're talking cars only here - people mean much more to me I'm looking forward to meet a Rennteamer from Isreal at the track this weekend - that's the great thing about Rennteam

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Do feel the stigma of not owning the CGT or GT2?



    Lol, yes I can feel it - it's so painful

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Aren't you just posting this snob rubbish to remind Boxster and Cayman owners that you own the one that's the top of the tree in car terms . There is no stigma as far as I'm aware; the only issue is when people like you try to my out that anyone who doesn't own a 911 should be embarrassed.



    LoL - too funny, just like a Pawlow reflex It's you who is dressing this shoe (like we say in Germany) not me You seem to have missed that I'm a very happy Boxster owner - fantastic car and thousand smiles per mile
    You seem to be so blinded by your paranoia regarding all those "snobs" that you completely fail to differentiate between subjective assessments and objective data. For example why do you put Easy_Rider into the snob camp (I can assure you he's anything else than that ) just because
    he finds it more rewarding for him to drive a rear-engine car What's wrong with that ? Is someone a snob because he prefers blonde girls over brunettes ? (I just want to have both )

    If it makes you feel any better: I'm looking forward to give the snobs a run for their money on the track this weekend Should I humiliate a GT3 I promise to post a new thread "987 S vs. 997 GT3 report - why a 987S is the better car"

    Bottom line: relax, have fun driving your car, enjoy the pics in the carmags rather than those pointless pseudo-scientific comparos and pleeeease stop this uncalled personal comments about other well respected members



    Do you actually read what I've said????

    Obliviously not

    No ones called Easy a snob (I enjoyed a sensible chat for a change) and I never said there's anything wrong with a rear engined car either, I used to love mine

    Your don't even bother to read any replies properly for some reason, please read properly before making incorrect assumptions, I suppose you just make it to give yourself some ammo

    I'll post what I like regarding the members of this board,

    DC, why is it you want to seem to gang up with other members of this board in some sort of effort to show a united front, the way you applaud and tag yourself along with other posts who you consider "friends" or support your point of view is so transparent, it's joke

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    DC, why is it you want to seem to gang up with other members of this board in some sort of effort to show a united front, the way you applaud and tag yourself along with other posts who you consider "friends" or support your point of view is so transparent, it's joke




    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    @ toplad , whats up dude , your like a woman on her monthlies....""chill"" ...Remember , our Porsche-Jeck is like the Daddy of the board , please respect that ..

    @ Porsche-Jeck , enjoy your burn and remember safety is always first , buddy....


    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Daddy?

    Not to me he's not. He's just someone who doesn't even read posts correctly and then tries to talk a load of rubbish in vain attempt to concoct some nonsensically reply, who needs that?

    Please don't tell me to chill, it's not like I'm getting hot under to collar, if I was upset, a complete stranger telling me what to do, isn't going to really help, is it?

    I'll leave the monthlies to DC and yourself

    Regards

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    throt said:
    @ toplad , whats up dude , your like a woman on her monthlies....""chill"" ...Remember , our Porsche-Jeck is like the Daddy of the board , please respect that ..




    Nice try throt, but you are wasting your time trying to talk sense to this guy.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    I'll leave the monthlies to DC and yourself

    Regards



    ..

    @ DC ,, have a good weekend ,, bud...

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Toplad, I really don't know what your problem is. Maybe you are down on your luck, (you've said that you have sold your new Cayman and bought a 4 year old Boxster). If you are you have my sympathy and I hope fortune smiles on you again soon. But please, if this is the case, don't come here to use Rennteam as some kind of punch-bag to take out your frustration.

    But you have come, yet again in your haste to be venomous, to the wrong conclusions. I have not "stage managed" a friendship with porsche-jeck or anyone else in some attempt to present a united front against you. You aren't worth the trouble.

    With regard to porsche-jeck, my wife's family live in Germany close to porsche-jeck's residence. We have met with him several times and I can assure you that he is a very genuine and extremely intelligent guy. In fact I consider it a privilege to think of him as a friend, and I am sure the many other Rennteamers that have met him feel the same way.

    What has throt done to incur your wrath? He tried to pour oil on troubled waters and got nothing but insults from you for his trouble.

    Do yourself a favour, come here and make friends, not enemies.

    @ throt - cheers, you have a good weekend also.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Gentlemen, I have a humble and polite plea to express to you. Please, I'm asking you, discuss cars all you want but kindly leave out the insults and personal animosity. It poisons everything we have created here. Rennteam remains a very special place for enthusiasts to come together, discuss what they like and to make friends. Please, respect others and behave in a dignified way. It will earn you the respect of others.

    I won't pick over the minutiae of who said this or who said that. All I will say is that, my dear friend, Porsche-Jeck, has suffered the indignity of having his good name sullied.

    Please, I ask you humbly, do not insult this kind man. I also know him in real life (outside Rennteam) and I can say, hand on my heart, that he is a true gentleman and a jewel of a man. I myself feel privileged to be able to call him my friend. He doesn't deserve to suffer the indignity of being insulted like this.

    Once again, please, gentlemen, respect each other and the dignity of this forum. Thank you.

     
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