Crown

Board: Porsche - Cayman Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:

    Here is a "plain hard fact":

    Over the past 6 month (Dec-May 06), the Cayman S outsold the Boxster (S and "regular") by 3,918 units (10,883 Cayman S vs 6,965 Boxster).

    Bottom line, the Cayman S is so far a great success .... even if a lot of people on this board don't like it.



    Here's what I read on June 27th:

    Industry: Porsche sales hit new high
    27 Jun 06 14:03


    Porsche Cayman
    Porsche has reported that sales are to exceed 90,000 for the fiscal year that ends in July, reports Reuters. This would make it the company's 12th straight year of higher earnings. Porsche sold 88,379 cars in the previous year.

    And thanks to the introduction of high-margin models such as the 911 Turbo, Porsche's revenue is forecast to grow faster than vehicle sales.

    The ten-month sales period for the 911 rose 21.4 percent to 27,896 units, while those of the Cayenne offroader fell 16.3 percent to 28,469 vehicles. Porsche has delivered 10,883 of its all-new Cayman S, and when these are included with sales of the Boxster range, sales have jumped 87.8 percent to 22,846 cars.

    Turnover in the 10 months rose 15.3 percent to 5.96 billion euros as the company delivered 79,564 units, up 14.2 percent.

    Porsche manufactures only three different model lines -Boxster/Cayman, 911 and Cayenne - so analysts pay close attention to the mix. The contribution to earnings from the sale of a 911 Turbo, for example, is estimated to be significantly higher than that from a Boxster roadster.

    Porsche cautioned once again that high development costs for its planned fourth model line, the four-door Panamera sport coupe, would affect earnings this year. Due in 2009, it will compete with the Mercedes-Benz CLS and Maserati Quattroporte. article continues below

    10 Mos. Ending 5/06 10 Mos. Ending 5/05

    Boxster 11,963 12,165

    Cayman S 10,883 0

    TOTAL 987 22,846 12,165

    It looks to me like Boxster only lost 202 sales from year to year and it looks to me like the Cayman S did not take away boxster's sales by much but had increased overall sales. I would suspect that Boxster with 3.4L put in will boost sales further. It proves that opening up new model lines is really transforming Porsche from a low volume small size automakers into more of a volume producers like Mercedes but this is nonetheless necessary to stay competitive in a suvival of the fittest world.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:
    Earlier this year, values were falling at around Pounds500 per month, and are now falling at between Pounds700 to Pounds750 per month.



    How can you enjoy your Boxster if you're calculating monthly depreciation? These are toys not investments. I'd count the whole car as a sunk cost and enjoy the heck out of it.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    I agree that looking at 10 month sales, Boxster sales are more or less flat (-203 units).
    10 month 04-05 12,166 units
    10 month 05-06 11,963 units

    However since the Cayman S introduction, Boxster sales are falling like a stone at least in North America:
    Jan 06 -18%, Feb 06 -39%, March 06 -42%, April -43%, May -35%.

    It is therefore fair to say the Cayman S is taking away some sales from the Boxster (S and Regular).

    The entry level 997 Carrera is also suffering in North America
    Jan 06: 97 (vs 249)
    Feb 06: 83 (vs 278)
    March 06: 111 (vs 295)
    April 06: 163 (vs 236)
    May 06: 119 (vs 175)

    It is fair to assume that some (a small portion in my view) 997 Carrera sales are "cannibalized" by the Cayman S BUT the largest part of the decline is coming from clients trading-up ....

    Overall 997 sales in North America are significantly up thanks to new models.
    Jan 06: 31%
    Feb 06: 27%
    March 06: 14%
    April 06: 22%
    May 06: 7%

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:
    I agree that looking at 10 month sales, Boxster sales are more or less flat (-203 units).
    10 month 04-05 12,166 units
    10 month 05-06 11,963 units

    However since the Cayman S introduction, Boxster sales are falling like a stone at least in North America:
    Jan 06 -18%, Feb 06 -39%, March 06 -42%, April -43%, May -35%.

    It is therefore fair to say the Cayman S is taking away some sales from the Boxster (S and Regular).





    I second your conclusion.
    There is definitely a correlation between Cayman sales and Boxster sales: in those countries where Cayman is selling very well (US) Boxster sales suffer more compared to those countries where Cayman is not a big hit. Since the Cayman's launch in Germany Boxster new car registrations decreased by 14% - much less compared to the US. Of course there are still other influences to observe (Boxster sales peak in Q1/Q2 2005 being a new model; softening cabrio market in Germany which is down by 20% YTD), but finally it should be fair to assume that the Cayman more eats into Boxster sales and not so much into base 997 sales (which is good for Porsche of course). This supports my original assumption that most buyers don't understand the Cayman as a base 997 competitor (inspite of the BS you could read in some carmags), but as a 987 coupé. As someone said: some people prefer cabs, some people prefer coupés (same for 997 cabs/coupés). The only shame is that the coupé comes at a premium.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?


    I agree with you, Q1-05 and Q2-05 Boxster sales were definitely boosted by the recent introduction (Nov 04 if I remember correctly) of the 987 model line-up... and were therefore "artificially" high.

    It is indeed extremely difficult to approximate the "canibalization" rate Cayman/Boxster and Cayman/997.

    I would say the most important factor is that every Porsche client is able to find a car that suit its taste and needs the best whether it is a Boxster, a Cayman or a 911.

    I assume that margin wise a Cayman S should be more or less equivalent to a 997 Carrera.
    Bearing in mind that Zuffenhausen has a maximum capacity of around 34,000 units per year, it would make some sense to divert some sales away from the entry 997 Carrera to the Cayman S to leave some room for more lucrative versions such as Carrera 4S (Coupe & Cab) or 997 TT (Coupe & Cab)...

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:
    I assume that margin wise a Cayman S should be more or less equivalent to a 997 Carrera.


    Hard to say - I recall that Porsche once said, the 996 would cost only 9% more to produce compared to the 986. If this ratio still would be true, the 997 C2 still should generate more profit than the Cayman S (not talking margins as % of sales, but Euro figures).
    Maybe the Valmet figures can help to shed some light on this topic: Valmet reports annual sales of 78 mEUR (Jan-Dec '05) while obtaining an "operating profit" (should be EBIT) of 5.9 mEUR. They produced 21,233 Boxsters and Caymans in 2005 with a workforce of 1,068, hence they charged PAG 3,674 Euro per car (mind you, it's only assembly work of course, still seems to be a quite low number compared to what some craftsmen charge me for some simple work on my house ) - excluding Valmet's profit the full costs to assemble one car is appr. 3,400 Euro/car. I don't know about the assembly costs in Zuffenhausen, but I remember that it takes some 35 hrs to assemble a Carrera.

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:
    Bearing in mind that Zuffenhausen has a maximum capacity of around 34,000 units per year, it would make some sense to divert some sales away from the entry 997 Carrera to the Cayman S to leave some room for more lucrative versions such as Carrera 4S (Coupe & Cab) or 997 TT (Coupe & Cab)...


    That's an interesting aspect, though I think they still could increase capacity in Zuffenhausen by inventing a third shift also (direct labour would be more expensive for a regular night shift, but better usage of overhead/fixed assets should at least compensate for the disadvantage).

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    I have a little financial model to forecast profitability. It has been quite accurate over the past few years....

    I assume an operating profit per unit of:
    Boxster: Euro 4,400
    Boxster S: Euro 6,300
    Cayman S: Euro 7,300
    997
    Entry Level: Euro 9,600
    Mid range: Euro 15,000
    High End: Euro 22,000

    It is fair to say that in absolute terms, a 997 Carrera is more profitable than a Cayman S but as a percentage it is more or less equivalent at 14%.

    At the end of the day, I'm not 100% sure, the Euro 2,300 difference I have between the 2 is that accurate. It highly depends on the option rate ...

    Porsche has no intention whatsoever to increase further capacity at Zuffenhausen, a night and weekend shift would be too expensive. They just want the factory to run at full capacity. When 911 sales are declining, they are bringing back-in some Boxster/Cayman to make sure it is running at around 30,000 units per year.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:
    I have a little financial model to forecast profitability. It has been quite accurate over the past few years....


    We seem to share the same hobby (apart from driving the P)
    Thanx for sharing the results of your computations

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:
    At the end of the day, I'm not 100% sure, the Euro 2,300 difference I have between the 2 is that accurate. It highly depends on the option rate ...



    Yes, the option rate is a very crucial (and unknown to the public) factor as some options seem to generate a margin of close to 100%
    I've not yet created my own P-financial model, but I think your numbers are looking quite plausible. However I could imagine that the profit-spread between Boxster and Boxster S might be higher as per your computations. The price-spread between Boxster/BoxsterS is very close to that of Carrera/Carrera S however the Carrea S comes with some additional goodies (Xenon, PASM, PCM, partial leather) the Boxster S doesn't come with...

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    My model is for sure not 100% accurate for various reasons .... and option rate is one of it. I also don't know exactly what is the average dealer margin and how many cars are sold by 100% owned Porsche subsidiaries .... You also have to take into account currencies and it is really becoming messy ...

    You're certainly right, the spread between the Boxster and the Boxster S can be higher than I think.

    This being said, the bulk of earnings is coming from the 911 and the Cayenne. Therefore errors on the Boxster family aren't that crucial for the bottom line.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    MattTheCarNut said:
    Quote:
    dreamcar said:
    Earlier this year, values were falling at around Pounds500 per month, and are now falling at between Pounds700 to Pounds750 per month.



    How can you enjoy your Boxster if you're calculating monthly depreciation?



    I'm not calculating depreciation - That was a quote from my OPC used buyer as I'm talking part exchange against a new 3.4 and that would be the last thing I'd be thinking of if I was worried about losing money.

    Re: Autoweek article

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    musicisfree said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?
    Is the Cayman S much lighter than the Boxster S? I doubt it.
    Is it more powerful? Well, 15 HP more isn't really a significant upgrade.
    Is it faster on the track? The Boxster S is already a very refined car, I don't see much room for improvement.

    So why the Cayman? Honestly, I don't know.

    Because a fixed roof gives you a stiffer structure which allows the suspension to do it's job better. Weight is about the same but every magazine review I have read says that in terms of performance the Cayman S trumps the Boxster S.



    Trumps is surely exaggerated, if you drive them back to back, you would think about that statement again, especially that the engines in MY07 will be the same. I really wonder what type of road can make the cayman TRUMP the boxster weight and HP equivalent, i.e. on chassis torsion alone

    As I said that is the impression I get from the magazine articles I have read.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    It'll never happen. History says Porsche AG will kill off the Cayman in a few years like it did the 914, 924, 944, 928, and 964.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    this threads a year old, why don twe start a new one cause no ones talking about the caymanturbo here righ tnow....

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    dsts6 said:
    this threads a year old, why don twe start a new one cause no ones talking about the caymanturbo here righ tnow....



    okay or cayman upgrades to talk about.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    dsts6 said:
    this threads a year old....



    Wow. I didn't even notice. I best read the date before I start thinking old info is new!

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    They need a Cayman with LSD and a GT3 motor, not a turbo. NA all the way. Had a turbo, won't be looking for another.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    They need a Cayman with LSD and a GT3 motor, not a turbo. NA all the way. Had a turbo, won't be looking for another.



    Just in case you haven't noticed, there is a car called 997 GT3 with (almost) exactly the specs you're looking for.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    we need to shut this down.... this would only get our hopes up. A 350 hp Cayman Turbo would out doe the 9/11 and possibly the GT3 with 400hp. It would be perfection--- a smaller car- designed to be nothing but a coupe.... with more hp than needed. The0-60s would be something like 4.8 secs- which would be great- and it could probably go 182mph .

    No- I would rather not think of a car that could do that which is that small and that perfect.

    The M coupe is close- but it needs more hp. If it had 380 or 400-- the M coupe would be the bmw to own. But as it stands- it has the older S52 engine.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    I hope that Porsche really has plans of slapping the market with a 350hp Cayman.
    Don't get me wrong. The 911 and Cayman are superb sports cars but some of the models lack power compared with the competitors. Sure the Porsche cars offer excellent driving dynamics but the feeling of pressing the throttle and feeling all the power of the engine and having you back hit the seat is priceless. Porsche need to step it up and not be so cheap.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    adrift said:
    They need a Cayman with LSD and a GT3 motor, not a turbo. NA all the way. Had a turbo, won't be looking for another.



    Just in case you haven't noticed, there is a car called 997 GT3 with (almost) exactly the specs you're looking for.



    Don't think I haven't noticed it. lol I lust, mightily. But the wallet does not permit.

    But then we are talking about mid-engined purity here, not a 911. We are talking about a car that starts to approach the ideal the CGT represents, but in an affordable package.

    Re: Cayman Turbo?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    adrift said:
    They need a Cayman with LSD and a GT3 motor, not a turbo. NA all the way. Had a turbo, won't be looking for another.



    Just in case you haven't noticed, there is a car called 997 GT3 with (almost) exactly the specs you're looking for.



    LOL

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 5/18/22 6:36 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    572996 1306
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 4/23/22 1:43 PM
    Rossi
    222182 1179
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 5/22/22 5:17 PM
    nberry
    111800 978
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/1/22 7:14 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    108089 405
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 1/3/22 7:55 AM
    Rossi
    89309 531
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 1/15/22 10:41 PM
    watt
    31409 1
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    Topspeed
    511765 3587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/28/21 3:25 AM
    WhoopsyM
    427245 3507
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/1/22 10:14 PM
    SSO.
    424127 3954
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/17/21 5:18 PM
    Rossi
    387784 3256
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 2/1/22 9:49 AM
    RCA
    364641 2655
    Porsche 992 GT3 5/23/22 7:31 AM
    Porker
    347470 3548
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 9/29/21 1:59 AM
    watt
    289411 1587
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 2/10/22 9:08 PM
    Topspeed
    137469 772
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 4/25/22 7:26 PM
    bluelines
    134672 1388
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    110723 209
    AMG AMG GT R 3/13/22 8:52 PM
    spudgun
    109710 834
    Lambo Aventador and SV 5/20/22 5:24 PM
    Topspeed
    107510 710
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 5/19/22 5:11 PM
    Leawood911
    92542 1644
    Porsche GT4RS 5/20/22 8:12 AM
    d997h
    83715 938
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 4/19/22 10:08 PM
    Leawood911
    75833 1590
    Others Bugatti Chiron 4/12/22 9:24 PM
    blueflame
    74763 520
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 12/15/21 8:04 PM
    Topspeed
    70152 533
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 2/28/22 7:42 PM
    Topspeed
    61628 409
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/4/22 7:10 AM
    GnilM
    54506 472
    Porsche Dave and Gnil @ Nürburgring Nordschleife 5/19/22 11:01 PM
    Grant
    53951 721
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 7/21/21 6:22 PM
    Topspeed
    53934 592
    Others Corvette C8 11/8/21 8:04 PM
    Topspeed
    49805 442
    Others Toyota Yaris GR 4/13/22 8:33 PM
    Grant
    26519 640
    AMG AMG plotting new SLR with hybrid power for 2018 launch 2/22/22 2:34 PM
    Topspeed
    24150 275
    225 items found, displaying 1 to 30.