Crown

Board: Porsche - Cayman Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace


    3/4 of profits coming from currency hedging it's a urban legend !!!!

    YES they do make a lot of money with currency hedging BUT 3/4 is absolutely non sense.

    I know Goldman Sachs produced a report last year saying they made Euro 750m out of currency hedging. Unfortunately many investors are naive enough to believe everything GS writes !!!

    What this extremely bright analyst forgot was that in 1999, 2000 and 2001 Porsche made currency hedging LOSSES and was still making very hefty margins.

    So, yes they are lucky enough to make money on currency hedging BUT their true profitability is somewhere between a pre-tax margin of 12% and 17%.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    It will be interesting to see if the forthcoming BMW Z4 Coupe is cheaper than the standard convertible version.
    I very much doubt it.
    I suspect that the cost differences depend on which way you do things. If you start with a convertible it costs more to re-engineer it as a coupe. If you start as a coupe it costs more to re-engineer it as a convertible.
    And the re-engineering costs are always in today's money whereas the original design was in yesterday's money and is sunk cost.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace


    According to BMW, the Z4 Coupe will be cheaper than the cab.

    The Z3 Coupe was a failure on a commercial stand point.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    KenH said: If you start with a convertible it costs more to re-engineer it as a coupe. If you start as a coupe it costs more to re-engineer it as a convertible.

    Not sure I completely agree. When a coupe is made into a convertible, a lot of reinforcing is added to the car to compensate for the lack of a rigid roof. I read that the Cayman did not have any of the Boxster's reinforcing removed so it shouldn't really require much engineering. The reason a Cayman costs so much is that Porsche feels the market will bear it. I'm sure that Porsche charges as much as they think the market will bear for every product they sell and why shouldn't they! Management has an obligation to maximize profits for the stockholders. That's their only job.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    yawn

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:

    3/4 of profits coming from currency hedging it's a urban legend !!!!
    ...



    So what percentage would you consider the hedging gains to be? Was the money only earned with currency hedging? I read the report in AMS a year ago and I cannot recall all the information.
    I was citing this since most people might have a wrong view on Porsche's earnings - maybe not. Afterall I don't care if they earn little or a lot of money as long as the products and everything around is great.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    I would say around 1/3 is currently currency gains.

    I believe their cash (over Euro 2.0bn) is invested in "money market" type of things.

    I don't think they gamble on FX, they hedge what they need to but they don't take speculative positions.

    Actually they are now "100%" hedge until 2009, BUT how do they know what will be the amount of sales in US$ in 2009. They have to guess so it is a bit of a gamble somehow.

    For us, Porsche geeks, the most important things are the products. Who cares if they make money or not ... We just want to drive fantastic machines.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    I really have to agree with C.Plavan... the current Boxster/Boxster S and Cayman S pricing compares favourably (at least in North America) to the late nineties. The Cayman is not the stripped down track weapon that many of us may lust after, but "we" are not a very representative sampling of most of Porsche's customers.

    Undoubtedly the Z06 has superior numbers, and an STI will kill almost everything on a performance/$ basis. But, if the Cayman S is a car that appeals (and it may be one of the most balanced driving cars out there) then the price is really not so out of whack.

    I think we sometimes forget that Porsche has, for great parts of its history, been a company that offers more of a GT offering than a pure sports car(other than limited number items likes various RSs, the GT3 etc.). It was the original 911 Turbo which sort of bucked that trend by being a car that was just so much quicker than pretty much anything else in its day.

    But hp has grown so much in recent years, that what does it really take to set one apart these days? 500 hp? The Cayman S has plenty of power? Need more? But something else, or put a GT3 motor in if you are well-heeled enough. Porsche is again in its historical position of making not the most powerful, but potentially the nicest driving cars. The current power for the Cayman is enough for me, and may be for many others too.

    I know this is getting longwinded, but I for one am happy that Porsche has managed to survive as an independent, because this to me is the real essence of what Porsche is all about (not engine position, number of cylinders or anyting like that). It may be easier to have Porsche bought by another company, and then they can just make exclusive sports cars like Ferrari and not have to worry about real survivability. It is from this perspective that I tend to admire the concept of the Cayenne, even though it is not my type of vehicle.

    I think we will find that the Cayman will be another successful Porsche offering and not a disgrace (hey, when did we ever think Porsches were bargain priced?!)

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    If Porsche sold the car under the price bracket of the Boxster they would risk devaluing the brand by massively increasing sales. They would be competing head on with cars like the Audi TT at sales levels that would be described as high volume in these niche markets. Porsche enthusiasts who buy 997's would complain bitterly that Porsche had lost the plot completely and sold out for market share leaving sales of the core model decimated.

    I think Porsche's marketing strategy has been extremely shrewd. They gambled heavily with the Cayenne but the brand was strong enough to take a move into SUV territory. Just look at the pricing of the Cayenne range. Does a Turbo really cost twice as much to manufacture as a V6? Of course it doesn't. If viewed disapassionately the turbo is grossly overpriced but if viewed in performance terms it is something of a bargain.

    By pricing the Cayman as they have, Porsche are giving dealers much needed additional volume to allow them to trade profitably but are not risking ruining the brand in the process by hugely increasing volumes. Herr Wiedeking has won a lot of cross industry awards in recognition of his achievements at Porsche which suggest that a lot of people recognise his great achievement in strengthening this company. Regardless of what he does he'll always be damned by some - those who think the entry models are too expensive and the enthusiasts who think the model range is too diversified and too "soft". You can't please all of the folks all of the time after all.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    It occurs to me that Porsche is trying to gently supersede the 911 with a mid-engined layout. We can see that happening with the Boxter comes from the bottom and the Carerra GT from the top sandwiching the 911's.

    I am of the suspicion that the 911 lay out has reached its technical limit with the 997. The mid-engined layout is the choice of F1 and Le Mans so it must be the right one for the future.

    Fifty odd years for the rear-engined layout is legendary on its own merit. But again technology moves on, and so will the loyal customers.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    TurboSport said:I am of the suspicion that the 911 lay out has reached its technical limit with the 997. The mid-engined layout is the choice of F1 and Le Mans so it must be the right one for the future.


    This argument has reached its limit too. They've been saying that for 40 years

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    I seriously doubt that the 911 will ever be replaced - it is legendary and a lot of people buy it simply because it is a "911". - that is Porsche's dilemma - the 911 is their flagship sports car (not counting the CGT of course which is about to be disco'd) so it will always demand a price premium over the Cayman and Boxster. However, as many have mentioned, drop a 911 engine into a Boxster/Cayman and they will run circles around a 911. The 911 has simply too much of a loyal following (it is the car most kids lust after and strive for when they grow up). Just like Chevy will never scrap the Corvette, Porsche will always have the 911 in it's lineup.


    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    When I was a kid (now I'm 28), I was one of those kids with a poster of an old skool 911 on my bedroom wall and have lusted after one ever since.

    The engineers at Porsche will no doubt put their hands up if they had the final say as to whether the the 911 should be superceded by the Cayman one day, however the marketeers will no doubbt try and milk as much cash out of it as they can.

    I hope Porsche don't replace the 911 anytime soon because it remains one of motoring's most unique experiences. The Cayman will be ready to take on the mantle as the 'new' 911 when the time comes (I suspect the Panamera will trigger that move in 2009).

    One wonders whether kids now will grow up to lust after the Cayman as my generation did with the 911??


    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    lavaman23 said:
    I hope Porsche don't replace the 911 anytime soon because it remains one of motoring's most unique experiences. The Cayman will be ready to take on the mantle as the 'new' 911 when the time comes (I suspect the Panamera will trigger that move in 2009).

    One wonders whether kids now will grow up to lust after the Cayman as my generation did with the 911??





    I can't believe that Porsche would discontinue the 911 as soon as 2009. Before they do that, they need to develop a car that can have similar aspirational status - ie is unique in the market, has a true racing pedigree and can be considered as Germany's supercar against the likes of Ferrari.

    However well the Cayman drives, it's not going to become an icon. The market is too full at Cayman level and I can't see how Porsche could elevate the Cayman to 911 status any time soon... The first nail in the 911's coffin will be when Porsche start a proper Cayman race series (not just clubman racing).

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    I am not saying soon, because of the loyal following. However, in due course perhaps 10-20 year time, the limitation of the rear-engined layout will be apparent ws-a-vis the mid-engined. We have an example here: the Boxters have been only supplied weaker engines as not to upset the 911 superiority.

    Carrera GT is a mid-engined one, supplied with a superior engine and guess what? It matches the other mid-engined supercars such as the Enzo, Murcielago, and Pagani Zonda. It is simply the laws of physics.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    how do you guess this car will be equipped? More power? Less weight? LSD? Dry sump?

    Thanks for indulging me



    Yes please, ALL of them

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Enduring icons will become increasingly rare in our New Age as the mass multi-media has reduced the human attention span to 5 minutes or less. Even nostalgia requires a memory.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Advertisers have perfected the art of selling nostalgia. Memory can easily be created or at least simulated. Look at MTV. They have a show with a bunch of teenagers living, acting, and breathing as if they're in the seventies when none probably have a clue except for what they've seen in Saturday Night Fever and Nick at Night re-runs.

    The Mini Coooper, Ford GT, Dodge Charger, Chrysler PT Cruiser... all rely on nostalgia. Enduring icons will always have a place so long as they sell.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    TurboSport said:
    I am not saying soon, because of the loyal following. However, in due course perhaps 10-20 year time, the limitation of the rear-engined layout will be apparent ws-a-vis the mid-engined.



    What new revelation in the coming 10-20 years will cause the rear-engine design to become more outmoded than it was 10-20 years ago? As others have posted above, it's your argument that has obvious limitations. I've been hearing similar prognostications for as long as I can remember.

    "Everybody" knows that the perfect race car chassis is a rear-mid engine design. The 911's full-rear engine placement has a higher (less desirable) polar moment of inertia, but a better weight distribution for accelerative traction and straight-line braking.

    The superior balance offered by mid-rear's lower polar moment edges out the better corner-exit traction of the 911 in some racing situations.

    Technological development of the 911 over the years has kept its superior accelerative traction while allowing ever better balance from the chassis. Go drive a 997 and see just how outmoded it is, today!

    The rear engine also provides the 911 with an opportunity for 2+2 seating/storage that no rear-mid engined car can offer. People who buy street cars look for the total package of desirability, including comfort and practicality; not just the last 5% in 'Ring times.

    The 911 is still the standard bearer sports car because it manages to offer just the right mix of performance, practicality, price and durability to capture the wallets of the only people that really count: Buyers!


    Quote:
    TurboSport said:Carrera GT is a mid-engined one, supplied with a superior engine and guess what? It matches the other mid-engined supercars such as the Enzo, Murcielago, and Pagani Zonda. It is simply the laws of physics.



    I happen to own a Carrera GT as well as a 911. There is no doubt that the CGT has more involving driving dynamics than any car I have driven before (save, perhaps, a 962). It's simply wonderful to drive and it provides just enough occupant pampering to distinguish it from a full-on race car. You're right; it's a supercar in every respect.

    However, it is not the better car for taking a short jaunt to visit the grocer, or traveling to a business meeting in the rain. For these, the 911 shines. The 911 has more practical parcel carrying capacity and my 996TT's AWD and easier ingress/egress characteristics cause much less inconvenience during wet weather conditions.

    Supercars can't be all things to all people. They are, by definition, "no compromise" vehicles. Most car buyers actually enjoy weighing various compromises to come up with the perfect vehicle for their uses. Since the 911 seems to be the most "practical", as well as one of the most exciting, sports cars around, what possible move to a mid-engined design would improve that balance?

    Maybe your position should include the laws of economics as well as the laws of physics.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Mike,

    I couldn't have said it better. Saved me five minutes at the keyboard today (talking of nostalgia).

    TurboSport,

    I respect your opinion but I'd say that I rather tend to believe Mike's opinion. The 911 has come to a point, dynamically, that the drawbacks in terms of weight distribution have more or less overcome - or better, ironed out.
    I do admit however that the Boxster, and probably the CGT as well, have a crispness in turn-in and an amount of weight on the front axis that the 911 is missing - at least unless you put more weight on the front end. This in fact is one aspect that I would want to be improved on the 998 - an even crisper and more spontaneous turn-in!

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    It's too bad that a dead horse never tires of beating. Rather stale despite the eloquence.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    You make some good points Mike. I was wondering where you were. We haven't heard from you in a while.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    TurboSport said:
    I am not saying soon, because of the loyal following. However, in due course perhaps 10-20 year time, the limitation of the rear-engined layout will be apparent ws-a-vis the mid-engined.



    What new revelation in the coming 10-20 years will cause the rear-engine design to become more outmoded than it was 10-20 years ago? As others have posted above, it's your argument that has obvious limitations. I've been hearing similar prognostications for as long as I can remember.

    "Everybody" knows that the perfect race car chassis is a rear-mid engine design. The 911's full-rear engine placement has a higher (less desirable) polar moment of inertia, but a better weight distribution for accelerative traction and straight-line braking.

    The superior balance offered by mid-rear's lower polar moment edges out the better corner-exit traction of the 911 in some racing situations.

    Technological development of the 911 over the years has kept its superior accelerative traction while allowing ever better balance from the chassis. Go drive a 997 and see just how outmoded it is, today!

    The rear engine also provides the 911 with an opportunity for 2+2 seating/storage that no rear-mid engined car can offer. People who buy street cars look for the total package of desirability, including comfort and practicality; not just the last 5% in 'Ring times.

    The 911 is still the standard bearer sports car because it manages to offer just the right mix of performance, practicality, price and durability to capture the wallets of the only people that really count: Buyers!


    Quote:
    TurboSport said:Carrera GT is a mid-engined one, supplied with a superior engine and guess what? It matches the other mid-engined supercars such as the Enzo, Murcielago, and Pagani Zonda. It is simply the laws of physics.



    I happen to own a Carrera GT as well as a 911. There is no doubt that the CGT has more involving driving dynamics than any car I have driven before (save, perhaps, a 962). It's simply wonderful to drive and it provides just enough occupant pampering to distinguish it from a full-on race car. You're right; it's a supercar in every respect.

    However, it is not the better car for taking a short jaunt to visit the grocer, or traveling to a business meeting in the rain. For these, the 911 shines. The 911 has more practical parcel carrying capacity and my 996TT's AWD and easier ingress/egress characteristics cause much less inconvenience during wet weather conditions.

    Supercars can't be all things to all people. They are, by definition, "no compromise" vehicles. Most car buyers actually enjoy weighing various compromises to come up with the perfect vehicle for their uses. Since the 911 seems to be the most "practical", as well as one of the most exciting, sports cars around, what possible move to a mid-engined design would improve that balance?

    Maybe your position should include the laws of economics as well as the laws of physics.


    Mike, well said....and I would also add the "law of emotional satisfaction"

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    911 is still desirable as ever, however observing the new directions that Porsche, with Cayenne and Cayman, I arrived to the conclusion that the economic growth prospects are limited. Porsche had been selling the 911 at around 35000 cars per year in the last few years with a rather flat growth rate. The recent jump in growth was due to the Boxter and now Cayenne to around 70000 cars. With the Cayman I would suspect an additional 15000 - 20000 cars per year.

    As you can see the laws of economics are implied in my assertion.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    TurboSport,

    You should check your numbers.

    911 All time high sales 32,337 (2001/02); then 27,789 (02/03); 23,704 (03/04); 27,826 (04/05)

    I suspect with the 997 they'll be able to break the 30,000 units barrier again and easily reach 35,000 units.

    Boxster : All time high 27,865 units (00/01); then 21,897 (01/02); 18,411 (02/03); 12,988 (03/04) and finally 18,009 (04/05)

    The roadster segment has declined substantially over the past few years and is now more competitive. My guess is, they will be lucky to sell 20-22,000 units, especially if you keep in mind the Cayman that will take away some sales.

    Cayman : Rule of the thumb 10-12,000 units.

    Cayenne : Still very much in demand but supply is limited by the factory to around 40-42,000 units.

    By adding them you get to slightly pass the 100,000 units mark let's say in 06/07. In 96/97 they sold 32,383 units and in 86/87 which was the previous all time high 52,254 units. It was right before the stock market crash.

    Bottom line 10 years x3, 20 years x2; I would consider that as significant growth against underlying markets that are growing at let's say 2-3% at best.

    I'm affraid Nick is right, Porsche is a mass maker the world is flooded with Porsche cars ... it's high time to switch to a more exclusive maker such as Morgan, TVR, ...

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Despite universal derision among the cognoscenti roughly 120,000 914s were produced in 6 years (69-75), or 20,000 units yearly with the majority being sold to Americans who evidently didn't know what a Porsche actually was. Thirty years later Porsche has kept the 911 technically and aesthetically fresh, produced enormous quantities of a highly profitable SUV, all this after resurrecting itself from near financial collapse with an extremely refined, detailed and affordable mid-engine roadster (which thankfully can be considered a Porsche by most devotees of the marque). Now they decide to launch a hardtop variant of that very desirable roadster which has considerable appeal. What precisely has Porsche done wrong that should be faulted? The prices? If you adjust for inflation the car we buy today is more value than the car of 30 years ago. I can accept the notion that today's Porsche is more refined and less visceral than the Porsche of yesteryear, which is an interesting and nostalgic topic to be sure. But I cannot begrudge Porsche's successful efforts to maintain their identity and increase their market share at the same time. I don't think a Porsche producing only CGTs, GT3s, and TTs would be able to survive supported only by very wealthy Porsche aficianados. I am gratified that we have the choices Porsche makes available, but since all I wanted was a Boxster coupe I must be too easily pleased!

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Dave,

    You have said it perfectly.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:
    TurboSport,

    You should check your numbers.

    911 All time high sales 32,337 (2001/02); then 27,789 (02/03); 23,704 (03/04); 27,826 (04/05)

    I suspect with the 997 they'll be able to break the 30,000 units barrier again and easily reach 35,000 units.

    Boxster : All time high 27,865 units (00/01); then 21,897 (01/02); 18,411 (02/03); 12,988 (03/04) and finally 18,009 (04/05)

    The roadster segment has declined substantially over the past few years and is now more competitive. My guess is, they will be lucky to sell 20-22,000 units, especially if you keep in mind the Cayman that will take away some sales.

    Cayman : Rule of the thumb 10-12,000 units.

    Cayenne : Still very much in demand but supply is limited by the factory to around 40-42,000 units.

    By adding them you get to slightly pass the 100,000 units mark let's say in 06/07. In 96/97 they sold 32,383 units and in 86/87 which was the previous all time high 52,254 units. It was right before the stock market crash.

    Bottom line 10 years x3, 20 years x2; I would consider that as significant growth against underlying markets that are growing at let's say 2-3% at best.

    I'm affraid Nick is right, Porsche is a mass maker the world is flooded with Porsche cars ... it's high time to switch to a more exclusive maker such as Morgan, TVR, ...



    Thanks for your correction on the data. I didn't check them carefully, just pick them out of the hat. But I knew the ball park figures.

    Well it is shown in your data that the growth rate of 911 is flat. So the Cayenne has actually filled in the gaps, performed as expected as far as the sales are concerned.

    I heard Porsche is looking into a supersaloon to beat BMW M5 or Maserati Quattroporte. I have a feeling this will be as successful as the Cayenne.

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:

    I'm affraid Nick is right, Porsche is a mass maker the world is flooded with Porsche cars ... it's high time to switch to a more exclusive maker such as Morgan, TVR, ...



    Morgan and TVR are more exclusive but they are nowhere as well-build as Porsches. They are a cottage industry lacking proper and modern production processes. I would not buy my cars from these sort of companies. I'd prefer my cars assembled by robots instead of humans.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part I) Thread Closed 9/24/20 12:47 AM
    watt
    748085 2849
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 8/11/21 2:00 PM
    throt
     
     
     
     
     
    451130 1287
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 9/20/21 9:51 PM
    nberry
    166232 1099
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 9/17/21 8:59 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    65425 380
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 9/20/21 8:07 AM
    RCA
    54074 511
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    46469 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/19/20 6:12 PM
    Leawood911
    42931 380
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    11974 29
    Porsche Cayman GT4 5/4/21 4:46 PM
    Topspeed
    464740 3586
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 6/25/21 2:56 PM
    the-missile
    384785 3506
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 8/12/21 4:57 PM
    Topspeed
    381252 3918
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 4/28/21 12:26 PM
    W8MM
    347187 3252
    Porsche Tesla Roadster 9/23/20 8:22 PM
    bluelines
    336048 4279
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/8/20 7:51 PM
    DJM48
    316998 2646
    Porsche 992 GT3 9/17/21 4:41 PM
    lexs4
    262350 2975
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 7/20/21 3:10 PM
    Topspeed
    249806 1567
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    167395 1379
    Others Alfa Romeo 4C 9/23/20 10:22 AM
    RCA
    143206 792
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    117907 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/20/21 10:36 PM
    Grant
    101494 741
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 7/5/21 4:30 PM
    BjoernB
    92134 1221
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    82007 209
    Lambo Aventador and SV 8/27/21 2:33 PM
    Topspeed
    71318 698
    AMG AMG GT R 7/8/21 3:07 PM
    CGX car nut
    71127 824
    Porsche Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan 11/23/20 6:10 PM
    Topspeed
    50547 596
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 9/14/21 1:11 PM
    BjoernB
    47163 1165
    Others Bugatti Chiron 7/22/21 6:55 PM
    Topspeed
    41891 480
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/24/21 6:30 PM
    Porker
    39699 531
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    38429 615
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    30389 394
    270 items found, displaying 1 to 30.