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    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Cost? yes Funny enough, my Cayenne GTS has Michelin Latitude summer tires (thanks god, I really like the Latitude on the Cayenne). 

    I looked up again the Michelin Pilot Super Sport on their website and there doesn't even seem to be a N-rated version for Porsche cars. This is even weirder since the tested PTS in Sport Auto had a N0 Super Sport.

    Maybe something happened between Michelin and Porsche, something we don't know about but apparently Michelin is still tire partner of the Porsche Club Germany for their club events... yes

    Something is definitely going on here but why would Porsche mount the Michelin on the Cayenne and Panamera (almost all Turbos and GTS I saw had the Michelin Pilot Sport) but not on the 911? Weird.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Both Michelin and Mobile 1 continue to be Porsche's motorsport partners.


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    You know the recent (as from July 2012)  EU Tyre labels and efficiency classes (rolling resistence, wet grip and noise). According to them the P Zero is rated class A (best) for wet grip as opposed to class B for Michelin PS2 and class C for Bridgestone Potenza.

    Strangely and in spite of the A rating, all Porsches tested by Sport Auto wearing P Zero were very poor in the wet handling test.

    What is the case with this Pirelli tyre, really??


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Just maybe the 'n' rating is less important than what we know from driving experiance.

    Boy am I being good or what at keeping my mouth shut?


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Recent version of P Zero won all comparison tests against other tires. For some cars P Zero is the best choice.
    Regarding 991 P Zero is actually used in whole 991 development process. So yes, ther is some special relationship between Porsche and Pirelli in 991 case. My P source told me that Michelin proposed tire for 991 did not fullfill all criteria that Porsche requested. That doesn't mean that sometimes in the future there won't be N rated Michelin tires for 991 models.

    Re: 991 and Michelin

    So, why was the SA wet handling test so poor for the 991 and the Panamera too on these tyres?

    Any info from either SA or Porsche?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    According to SA these P Zeros are specially developed for maximal dry road/track traction. Downside is not that great wet road capabilities.


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Strange that in the EU Tyre Label it is rated at A for wet grip. Perhaps the N-rated P Zeros deviate from the normal ones to offer more dry and less wet grip

    1-F-A-71-2.png


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    I had P Zero (Rosso) N rated on 996 and 997s and anytime it was damp or cold (and more or less below 15 cels.) the traction was not really good and the handling was not  inspiring confidence. (more than once I witnessed the intervention of the PSM at rather low speeds or speeds that I would deem safe).  My take is that it seems this tyre had big issues to get warmed up in cooler temperatures (I am not talking here about  temperatures that require winter tyres)


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    In warm and hot temperatures the Rosso gripped very well but wore out very very fast. On a 986 S I had to change the rears every 8.000 km of road driving. Perhaps, the current P Zero is also a good weather tyre. The person who runs the tyre workshop I use has them on a Audi A5 and he told me that he is happy with the dry handling but experiences a very high rate of wear.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Tire manufacturers pay (through deep discounts) the car manufacturers to use "their" tires....maybe Pirelli was willing to pay more than Michelin??


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    You may have hit on something.  The automotive supply business is rather cut throat.  Maybe  Pirelli just out bid Michelin.


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    OBG:

    You may have hit on something.  The automotive supply business is rather cut throat.  Maybe  Pirelli just out bid Michelin.

    Since Porsche always approves multiple tyre brands for each model so that it is not entirely dependant on one manufacturer, that will not be the explanation. It's more likely that Michelin could not fulfil one of the technical criteria set by Porsche, as someone mentioned above, and had to be sent away to do some more homework. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Best summer tire out there is Pilot Super Sport - Period. Ive it on my 997.1 Turbo and in the dry they are sticky as hell and also good on wet.


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    hunterone:

    Best summer tire out there is Pilot Super Sport - Period. Ive it on my 997.1 Turbo and in the dry they are sticky as hell and also good on wet.

    I spoke to a Michelin representative at Porsche GB and they confirmed the Michelin Pilot Super Sport would be "N" rated by Porsche in the very near future...

    Specially Engineered for Super Sports Cars and Ultra High Performance Tuning

    Born from endurance racing for the most exhilarating drive!
     
    PRODUCT BENEFITS
    • Safety even in the most demanding conditions
    • The best dry handling
    • Developed with Porsche, BMW M and Ferrari
    THE TWARON® BELT
    • At very high speed, The Twaron® belt ensures greater stability.
    • Its variable tension grips the centre of the tread more tightly than the shoulders. 
    • Centrifugal force is thus better controlled and forces are distributed more evenly.
     
    DUAL-COMPOUND TECHNOLOGY
    • A novel distribution of two different rubber compounds between the outer and inner sides of the tread.
    • Outer side: a novel carbon black-reinforced elastomer derived directly from the Le Mans 24 Hour Race.
    • The result: extreme endurance even under the tightest cornering.
    • Inner side: the latest generation of elastomers with exceptional wet grip to mould themselves to the slightest irregularities in the road surface and break the film of water.
     
    VARIABLE CONTACT PATCH 2.0
    • Whether you’re accelerating flat out in a straight line or cornering at high speed, you still get optimum grip.
    • When cornering, the shape of the contact patch changes but the amount of rubber in contact with the road surface stays the same. 
    • MICHELIN Pilot Super Sport has benefited from the latest digital simulation software used in the aeronautics and automobile industries. 
    • These state-of-the-art tools, have enabled the forces and temperatures to be more evenly distributed over the contact patch.

    ...expect the Michelin Pilot Super Sport will be "N" rated in time for the Porsche 991 GT3 launch at Geneva! Smiley

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    fritz:
    OBG:

    You may have hit on something.  The automotive supply business is rather cut throat.  Maybe  Pirelli just out bid Michelin.

    Since Porsche always approves multiple tyre brands for each model so that it is not entirely dependant on one manufacturer, that will not be the explanation. It's more likely that Michelin could not fulfil one of the technical criteria set by Porsche, as someone mentioned above, and had to be sent away to do some more homework. 

    Fritz, do you really believe this that the MPSS could not fulfill one of the technical criteria ? If so what sort of criteria would you guess at ?

    I have driven the big 325 size MPSS over 200mph many times and have to say there is always a slight inkling of doubt because it doesn't have the "N" approval..... this and the fact that the 325 size is not manufactured or distributed in Europe but only in the USA which worries me slightly since cars drive slowly over there and just maybe this particular tyre is for domestic market only ?Smiley


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    TB993tt:
    fritz:
    OBG:

    You may have hit on something.  The automotive supply business is rather cut throat.  Maybe  Pirelli just out bid Michelin.

    Since Porsche always approves multiple tyre brands for each model so that it is not entirely dependant on one manufacturer, that will not be the explanation. It's more likely that Michelin could not fulfil one of the technical criteria set by Porsche, as someone mentioned above, and had to be sent away to do some more homework. 

    Fritz, do you really believe this that the MPSS could not fulfill one of the technical criteria ? If so what sort of criteria would you guess at ?

    I have driven the big 325 size MPSS over 200mph many times and have to say there is always a slight inkling of doubt because it doesn't have the "N" approval..... this and the fact that the 325 size is not manufactured or distributed in Europe but only in the USA which worries me slightly since cars drive slowly over there and just maybe this particular tyre is for domestic market only ?Smiley

    You can trust Michelin. I use PSS on my Carrera GT and it is not N rated, 345 wide instead of the OEM 335 but it's perfectly fine and much better than the Pilot Sport.

     


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Michelin is still working with Porsche..

    The 918 has prototype tires from michelin

    But no PSS as of yet for the rest of us.


    --
    997 GT3 Guards Red

    Re: 991 and Michelin

    TB993tt:
    fritz:
    OBG:

    You may have hit on something.  The automotive supply business is rather cut throat.  Maybe  Pirelli just out bid Michelin.

    Since Porsche always approves multiple tyre brands for each model so that it is not entirely dependant on one manufacturer, that will not be the explanation. It's more likely that Michelin could not fulfil one of the technical criteria set by Porsche, as someone mentioned above, and had to be sent away to do some more homework. 

    Fritz, do you really believe this that the MPSS could not fulfill one of the technical criteria ? If so what sort of criteria would you guess at ?

    Car manufacturers, when approving specific tyres for their products, will have objective values for various characteristics whose complete fulfilment they will strictly insist on for very good reasons. If even an otherwise favoured supplier cannot fulfil then he has to do some more homework, as I wrote above. There can't be any free passes, otherwise you might just as well bin your list of objectives. 
    We are just speculating that that is what has happened here, but another post here today suggesting that Porsche's  approval of the MPSS for some models has been confirmed by PCGB as being imminent would suggest that the speculation is close to the mark. Why else should it come at this late date?
    I wouldn't speculate on which criterion might have caused problems, as that would just be a wild guess with no factual basis. 
    I too have noticed that a lot of drivers who have fitted MPSSs to their Porsche's are extremely pleased with them, but those are subjective opinions arrived at without any knowledge of any problems which those tyres may or may not have had fulfilling the objective targets, or of how relevant any such problems  might be for them. 

    I have driven the big 325 size MPSS over 200mph many times and have to say there is always a slight inkling of doubt because it doesn't have the "N" approval..... this and the fact that the 325 size is not manufactured or distributed in Europe but only in the USA which worries me slightly since cars drive slowly over there and just maybe this particular tyre is for domestic market only ?Smiley

    Without in any way wanting to appear unduly alarmist, the combination of very high rear axle weight, very high speeds and high torque loads which can come together on your particular car are far from the easiest for a tyre manufacturer to fulfil. 
    Personally, I would have reservations about using tyres under these conditions which I specifically knew had not yet been released for the application in spite of the fact that I would normally expect it to be a high priority matter for the people responsible for that approval. 

    I have often thought that Bugatti must sh!t in its collective company pants every time an owner calls to say that he wants to drive his Veyron at 400km/h and asks them to send along the obligatory technician and fresh set of tyres for use on that drive.Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Thanks for the reply Fritz, I guess taking into account their size and reputation and reading Michelin's blurb above and knowing the MPSS is fitted as standard to some very fast Ferraris one can feel pretty confident in this tyre.


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    I went to the RUF stand at the Geneva expo yesterday and all  their cars  have Michelin Super Sport  !!!!

    So I talked to a guy to get explanations and he said, they are fully approved for the RUF cars/chassis numbers but not for Porsche heart 

    So I asked to explain that and he seemed not to be able to come up with any serious answers : I don't know he was just saying ...... and then : maybe because we have slight different suspension settings so they are approved for us but not for P  and so on......

    I was insisting that it does not make any sense and that I want these tyres on my car . He just said.... They will be soon N approved .

    So, this brings up the debate again about N ratings or not .  Untill now I did believe there was a difference, but now I can not see there is a difference as they are fully ok, in non N rated, to fit the RUF cars ......


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    RUF has a signed deal with Michelin. Porsche has signed deal with Pirelli for 991 Carrera models but, for GT3 and forthcoming Turbo deal is signed with Dunlop and Michelin as well.


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Gnil:

    So, this brings up the debate again about N ratings or not .  Untill now I did believe there was a difference, but now I can not see there is a difference as they are fully ok, in non N rated, to fit the RUF cars ......

    RUF uses completely different chassis setups (shocks, dampers, camber/toe/etc. values and so on.) than Porsche.

    I also remember that when I had Michelin Cup on my 997 Turbo, H.P. Lieb personally adjusted my chassis to them and I had the feeling I was driving a different car, amazing change.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Interesting to see that the 991 GT3 has Dunlops, not MPSC.  This is breaking what? 10 years of OEM supply for GT3/2?  That and the lack of N-rated PSS makes it sound more like a commercial stance than anything else - given the great reviews PSS has received - often about non-N-rated tyres fitted to 911s.  Porsches also must surely make up the majority of the target market for the PSS - I wonder what cars they used in development and testing


    --

    2011 987S, 1964 Type 1


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Now this may have something to do with VW and common parts sourcing agreements. Purely speculation on my part, of course...

     


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    RC:

    RUF uses completely different chassis setups (shocks, dampers, camber/toe/etc. values and so on.) than Porsche.

    Come on RC, you know this is BS Smiley,  Ruf uses the MPSS as, like many of us he knows they are the best street tyre out there at the moment. Ruf's approval of a tyre will be a few blasts down the Autobahn at maximum speed and possibly some circuit time.

    RS Tuning also recommend Michelin and I'm pretty sure there is no commercial agreement they simply make the best tyres.


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    TB993tt:
     

    Come on RC, you know this is BS Smiley,  Ruf uses the MPSS as, like many of us he knows they are the best street tyre out there at the moment. Ruf's approval of a tyre will be a few blasts down the Autobahn at maximum speed and possibly some circuit time.

    RS Tuning also recommend Michelin and I'm pretty sure there is no commercial agreement they simply make the best tyres.

    So you believe that there is no difference between an N tyre and an non N .

    RUF was also trying to justify that their setup is a little bit different then Porsche so that could be why it is aproved for them and not Porsche, but the guy was not very convincing or convinced Smiley , but could clearly not say anything else.


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    Gnil:
    TB993tt:
     

    Come on RC, you know this is BS Smiley,  Ruf uses the MPSS as, like many of us he knows they are the best street tyre out there at the moment. Ruf's approval of a tyre will be a few blasts down the Autobahn at maximum speed and possibly some circuit time.

    RS Tuning also recommend Michelin and I'm pretty sure there is no commercial agreement they simply make the best tyres.

    So you believe that there is no difference between an N tyre and an non N .

    RUF was also trying to justify that their setup is a little bit different then Porsche so that could be why it is aproved for them and not Porsche, but the guy was not very convincing or convinced Smiley , but could clearly not say anything else.

    My point was that "approval" from Ruf is not a big thing since I don't believe he undertakes a massive tyre testing program, he has taken the common sense approach which is that the MPSS was developed on the 911 chassis and Michelin are arguably the best tyre manufacturer with their PSS being a game changing tyre which WAS used by Porsche on the 911 so he has adopted it.

    I'm sure there are differences between N and non N tyres but the MPSS is a different proposition IMO - I have been using it with my high torque, modified chassis 7GT2 and it really is exceptional Smiley


    --

     


     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    TB993tt:

    My point was that "approval" from Ruf is not a big thing since I don't believe he undertakes a massive tyre testing program, he has taken the common sense approach which is that the MPSS was developed on the 911 chassis and Michelin are arguably the best tyre manufacturer with their PSS being a game changing tyre which WAS used by Porsche on the 911 so he has adopted it.

    I'm sure there are differences between N and non N tyres but the MPSS is a different proposition IMO - I have been using it with my high torque, modified chassis 7GT2 and it really is exceptional Smiley


    --

     


     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over

    The sales man at RUF told me that the MPSS has been   OFFICIALLY  homologated for all RUF chassis . So that goes a little bit further  ( and I also believe they did not have to make much testing as , as you said, the tyre has been developed on a 911 chassis )

    So... concluding there is no difference in an N and non N MPSS makes sense ! 


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 and Michelin

    So disappointing. For me Michelin are the best, period. Official rating are IMO as much driven by technical as business. Good for Dunlop and Pirelli but a big shame for Michelin. I work quite a bit with the boys from clermont ferrand in motorsport and they are excellent and yes N rating is slightly over rated to say the least. 

    The supersport was developed amongst other cars on the Carrera GT so I didn't think twice before fitting them, incidentally by Porsche reading, hence almost approved by Porsche. 

    Same for Laferrari, huge disappointment it comes on shit pirellis. The first thing I will do is fit it with supersports which it turns out fit the exact same dimension. Also exactly the same dimensions as the ones on the Carrera GT. 

    but i have a bigger problem on my 4.0, I destroyed my cup tyres on my last trackday and now I will drive it on slicks so I looked for supersports on 19' for road driving but they don't do that size! Damn! So I've ordered a set of Goodyear in slightly smaller width than OEM, should be interesting but mostly more fun to drive (less grip, earlier traction breakaway). 

     

     


     
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