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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    reginos:
    Topspeed:

    The flatbed truck, a Tesla essential accessory Smiley

     

    That is not a flatbed.  It is the winner’s podium.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I guess the lap time they achieved in the "computer simulator" will have to do smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Chose the red pill (car) or the blue one...appears that the harsh reality known as karma became the fate of the red one.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Some impressive stuff by the Tesla prototypes I must say and looks like they will be on the ring frequent from now on with their prototypes. Interesting times and Porsche should watch out for sure if Tesla perform this well with an early prototype and their first attempt kiss

    Just like I mentioned earlier, Tesla did never officially claim to make any record attempt nor that they were going to beat the Taycan. They just announced their presence on the ring and then media and social media made up some stoires and far fetched assumptions.  Tesla has been very transparent and I'm sure that you realize this as well if you go through the official communication from Tesla/Musk. This was actually the main issues that I had with that article on Drive which was written by someone who just see Tesla through negative glasses and made assumptions spinning on the media guesses and non official information. Not much more to say than that.

    And by the way Tesla seems to be in good company when it comes to having prototypes brake down on the ring. A 992 GT3 from this summer in the article below smiley Difference is that there were no Tesla driving past it because at that time Tesla had never been to the ring. But now they are there 

    "The prototype was approaching the Hatzenbach section of the infamous German track when an issue determined the engineer behind the wheel to pull over on the grass. And while the vehicle didn't show any signs of damage, the test car wasn't able to leave the circuit under its own power. Oh, and yes, that happens to be a Mid-Engined Corvette passing by."

    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2021-porsche-911-gt3-prototype-breaks-down-on-nurburgring-spied-up-close-135717.html#


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I thought the Tesla S for the record run is no prototype, so it can be compared to the Taycan? 

    This GT3 clearly was a prototype and no, Porsche didn't attempt a record run with it. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    lukestern:

    Some impressive stuff by the Tesla prototypes I must say and looks like they will be on the ring frequent from now on with their prototypes. Interesting times and Porsche should watch out for sure if Tesla perform this well with an early prototype and their first attempt kiss

    Just like I mentioned earlier, Tesla did never officially claim to make any record attempt nor that they were going to beat the Taycan. They just announced their presence on the ring and then media and social media made up some stoires and far fetched assumptions.  Tesla has been very transparent and I'm sure that you realize this as well if you go through the official communication from Tesla/Musk. This was actually the main issues that I had with that article on Drive which was written by someone who just see Tesla through negative glasses and made assumptions spinning on the media guesses and non official information. Not much more to say than that.

    And by the way Tesla seems to be in good company when it comes to having prototypes brake down on the ring. A 992 GT3 from this summer in the article below smiley Difference is that there were no Tesla driving past it because at that time Tesla had never been to the ring. But now they are there 

    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2021-porsche-911-gt3-prototype-breaks-down-on-nurburgring-spied-up-close-135717.html#

     

    You forget one important point : the GT3 is still in development and porsche doesn't claim any ring time for it.

    That's precisely the  issue with the tesla that's supposed to beat the Taycan. It's still in freaking development so it can't possibly compete with the Taycan. Porsche could also bring to the ring some beefed up Taycan wit a 1000bhp just to impress the masses.

    The diff between a production car and a prototype is huge. One can last 10 years and do 300.000 km, the other can break down any time as it's a work in progress.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    RC:

    I thought the Tesla S for the record run is no prototype, so it can be compared to the Taycan? 

    This GT3 clearly was a prototype and no, Porsche didn't attempt a record run with it. 

    But that's the thing. Tesla did never announce anything about making a record, they just tweeted that they were present att the ring with a Model S. All the rest was all made up by media and random people posting stuff on the internet Smiley

    Now when they leave they have given some ballpark numbers what their prototypes achieved while on the ring. And then it's pretty bold to say that the production car that will come in a year or so will be even faster. Time will tell how that goes though Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    lukestern:
    RC:

    I thought the Tesla S for the record run is no prototype, so it can be compared to the Taycan? 

    This GT3 clearly was a prototype and no, Porsche didn't attempt a record run with it. 

    But that's the thing. Tesla did never announce anything about making a record, they just tweeted that they were present att the ring with a Model S. All the rest was all made up by media and random people posting stuff on the internet Smiley

    Seriously? You don't get the irony? Smiley Elon Musk announced this publicly, he could have (did Porsche announce the GT3 testing? Smiley) done it quietly. Oh boy...fanboys, you have to love them.

    If you call me a Porsche fanboy now: I drive a Lamborghini and AMG. No Porsche. Sorry. Smiley

    Now when they leave they have given some ballpark numbers what their prototypes achieved while on the ring. And then it's pretty bold to say that the production car that will come in a year or so will be even faster. Time will tell how that goes though Smiley

    This is not about giving ballpark numbers or whatever, this is a very clever marketing/advertisement stunt and pissing in Porsche's garden, to annoy them and to create headlines, positive headlines Tesla didn't have for a very long time.

    Tesla feels the pressure from the Taycan and I bet that Elon Musk, when he saw the Taycan for the first time, said: Dammit, this is a good looking car.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    amazon:
     

    You forget one important point : the GT3 is still in development and porsche doesn't claim any ring time for it.

    That's precisely the  issue with the tesla that's supposed to beat the Taycan. It's still in freaking development so it can't possibly compete with the Taycan. Porsche could also bring to the ring some beefed up Taycan wit a 1000bhp just to impress the masses.

    The diff between a production car and a prototype is huge. One can last 10 years and do 300.000 km, the other can break down any time as it's a work in progress.

    Please post something officially from Tesla/Musk that back up that claim.

    Tesla hasn't given any promises, but they have reported back giving us some estimates/indications based on their testing with the prototype over the last week. But what is strange with that? Still very transparent what they do. Right?


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    RC:
    lukestern:
    RC:

    I thought the Tesla S for the record run is no prototype, so it can be compared to the Taycan? 

    This GT3 clearly was a prototype and no, Porsche didn't attempt a record run with it. 

    But that's the thing. Tesla did never announce anything about making a record, they just tweeted that they were present att the ring with a Model S. All the rest was all made up by media and random people posting stuff on the internet Smiley

    Seriously? You don't get the irony? Smiley Elon Musk announced this publicly, he could have (did Porsche announce the GT3 testing? Smiley) done it quietly. Oh boy...fanboys, you have to love them.

    Tesla doesn't work like Porsche so why should they start now? It's like comparing an e-commerce business with a brick and mortar company. They have different history and different skills, but both can co-exist and make sense.

    What kind of approach a company has in terms of PR/Marketing is for each company to decide. And from this perspective I don't see what Tesla have claimed that is "false"? They are bold and I agree that they can be like an irritating fly if you don't like them, but that doesn't mean they're lying or cheating.

    If you call me a Porsche fanboy now: I drive a Lamborghini and AMG. No Porsche. Sorry. Smiley

    No, I don't call you fanboy and also take note that I really do like Porsche. That's probably why I'm here, right?

    Now when they leave they have given some ballpark numbers what their prototypes achieved while on the ring. And then it's pretty bold to say that the production car that will come in a year or so will be even faster. Time will tell how that goes though Smiley

    This is not about giving ballpark numbers or whatever, this is a very clever marketing/advertisement stunt and pissing in Porsche's garden, to annoy them and to create headlines, positive headlines Tesla didn't have for a very long time.

    maybe it is, but quite some smart stunt then, don't you think?

    I must ask how you rate all the Porsche Taycan prototype videos with repeatability. That was targeted to show that Porsche is better than Tesla and focus the marketing around that. Is that any better? And why should not Tesla respond if they can?

    Tesla feels the pressure from the Taycan and I bet that Elon Musk, when he saw the Taycan for the first time, said: Dammit, this is a good looking car.

    But hey, competition is good and I really do think that the Taycan will be very important for many reasons. Porsche just confirms with their EV strategy that electric cars are the future even for sportier cars and that they even can be drivers cars and be more than a compliance car. This create interest from everyone (and even car people even if not everyone is so fond of it). Taycan is not a competitor against any of the Tesla models. It's a different type of car in a different price segment for a different type of customer. All good then!

    It's a new game now and there just happen to be yet another player that hasen't been there before. Competing on the ring between BMW M, Merc AMG, Audi RS, Porsche, etc has been going on for decades. Now we will see more EVs competing and challening each other. Good for us customers and a fun ride to follow!


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    lukestern:
    amazon:
     

    You forget one important point : the GT3 is still in development and porsche doesn't claim any ring time for it.

    That's precisely the  issue with the tesla that's supposed to beat the Taycan. It's still in freaking development so it can't possibly compete with the Taycan. Porsche could also bring to the ring some beefed up Taycan wit a 1000bhp just to impress the masses.

    The diff between a production car and a prototype is huge. One can last 10 years and do 300.000 km, the other can break down any time as it's a work in progress.

    Please post something officially from Tesla/Musk that back up that claim.

    Tesla hasn't given any promises, but they have reported back giving us some estimates/indications based on their testing with the prototype over the last week. But what is strange with that? Still very transparent what they do. Right?

    Luke c'mon, right after Taycan publicizes the NBR lap time, Musk himself tweets about taking a Model S to the NBR... they never went to the ring before, heck Musk probably didn't even know about it until then, coincidence according to you? Let's not play naive, it was completely implied why they went.

    Then he trolled Porsche in another tweet saying to Porsche that "this word Turbo does not mean what you think it does".

    Tesla hasn't given any promises? Again Musk in reference to the supposed time of 7:23 not only have credibility to it by saying it's a start but also promised that the 7 seater production version will be even faster than the ringer they bought for the publicity stunt. He also promised that the roadster will break the all time record. If Musk is know for making promises that he doesn't keep... full autopilot taxis anyone?

    You try to bend reality but unfortunately Musk's big mouth gets in the way.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    amazon:
    lukestern:

    Some impressive stuff by the Tesla prototypes I must say and looks like they will be on the ring frequent from now on with their prototypes. Interesting times and Porsche should watch out for sure if Tesla perform this well with an early prototype and their first attempt kiss

    Just like I mentioned earlier, Tesla did never officially claim to make any record attempt nor that they were going to beat the Taycan. They just announced their presence on the ring and then media and social media made up some stoires and far fetched assumptions.  Tesla has been very transparent and I'm sure that you realize this as well if you go through the official communication from Tesla/Musk. This was actually the main issues that I had with that article on Drive which was written by someone who just see Tesla through negative glasses and made assumptions spinning on the media guesses and non official information. Not much more to say than that.

    And by the way Tesla seems to be in good company when it comes to having prototypes brake down on the ring. A 992 GT3 from this summer in the article below smiley Difference is that there were no Tesla driving past it because at that time Tesla had never been to the ring. But now they are there 

    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2021-porsche-911-gt3-prototype-breaks-down-on-nurburgring-spied-up-close-135717.html#

     

    You forget one important point : the GT3 is still in development and porsche doesn't claim any ring time for it.

    That's precisely the  issue with the tesla that's supposed to beat the Taycan. It's still in freaking development so it can't possibly compete with the Taycan. Porsche could also bring to the ring some beefed up Taycan wit a 1000bhp just to impress the masses.

    The diff between a production car and a prototype is huge. One can last 10 years and do 300.000 km, the other can break down any time as it's a work in progress.

    Also: the new 992 GT3 has been at the NBR hundred times at least. Tesla has been there for one day or two. And immediately broke down Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    More trolling :)  http://taycant.com and for reference; Tesla didn't mention "prototype" in attached tweet. As RC said, it's a well played marketing stunt (for now).

    Bildschirmfoto 2019-09-20 um 18.14.31.png


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    schmoell:

    More trolling :)  http://taycant.com and for reference; Tesla didn't mention "prototype" in attached tweet. As RC said, it's a well played marketing stunt (for now).

    Bildschirmfoto 2019-09-20 um 18.14.31.png

     

    Next month Model S prototype


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Another example of lap time promise, literally.

    Gotta say, it's been entraining though, and at least one good thing came out of it, Tesla will be testing in the ring from now on, they need it, so hopefully they really mean it, and it's not just another publicity stunt and it's all for show, which wouldn't surprise me after the game news stunt they pulled with the track mule lap time.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Sport Auto will be at the Nurburgring lapping a Tesla Model S in the next few weeks... Smiley

    1569000322748image.jpeg

    ...I hope they are prepared for a bit of serious independent testing... Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    This will not look good for Tesla, a real Model S is going to be embarrassing around the ring, but they brought this upon themselves... if they would of just came to the ring for testing under the radar like everybody else instead of boasting about lap times, making such s fuss in social media, etc none of this would of happened.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Carlos from Spain:

    This will not look good for Tesla, a real Model S is going to be embarrassing around the ring, but they brought this upon themselves... if they would of just came to the ring for testing under the radar like everybody else instead of boasting about lap times, making such s fuss in social media, etc none of this would of happened.

    Tesla is all about bullsh***ng customers. From downpayment to fake stories Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I keep returning to the quip I recently read where someone wrote, "Musk talks like what a dumb person would think a smart person would say."

    I've also grown incredibly wary of the Tesla cult and its participants' lack of knowledge on basic automotive facts.  Porsche, for example, has over a decade of work with various forms of EVs through its motorsports division.  Over the same time period it has developed and sold hybrid vehicles which, of course, have at least one electric machine. The 919 and the 911 hybrid race car are examples of that research.  In motorsports, performance, efficiency, and reliability, are of the utmost importance.  Porsche developed a 800 volt system, amongst other systems and technologies incorporated in the Taycan, for its WEC championship winning 919.  

    Additionally, Porsche invested over €6 billion for development of the Taycan.  This investment rivals, and potentially exceeds that made by Tesla over the same time period.  Porsche, as part of the larger Volkswagen Group receives the benefits of cross-pollination of R&D from Audi, Volkswagen, and Volkswagen R&D.  Therefore, indirectly, the investment in the Taycan is significantly greater than what Tesla made for its current and near future product line.   The Volkswagen Group, along with Mercedes-Benz, have focused on other parameters besides ultimate range with its first round of EVs.

    Musk, once again, has sent Tesla into a competition that it never needed to enter.  Few Tesla current and future owners care about that car's lap time at the Nürburgring; however, that time measure is a standard performance parameter released with the launch of nearly every new Porsche model.  Musk, and I have stated this obvious fact before, needs to concentrate on making the company profitable starting now; the obsequious capital markets will not remain this way forever.  By the end of 2020, Volkswagen Group will have at least five different EVs, at different pricing points, on market.  This doesn't include new entrants by Mercedes, BMW, Nissan, and General Motors.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    CGX car nut:

     

    Musk, once again, has sent Tesla into a competition that it never needed to enter.  Few Tesla current and future owners care about that car's lap time at the Nürburgring; however, that time measure is a standard performance parameter released with the launch of nearly every new Porsche model.  Musk, and I have stated this obvious fact before, needs to concentrate on making the company profitable starting now; the obsequious capital markets will not remain this way forever.  By the end of 2020, Volkswagen Group will have at least five different EVs, at different pricing points, on market.  This doesn't include new entrants by Mercedes, BMW, Nissan, and General Motors.  

    Totally agree. We even had posters here who gladly praised a Tesla X as a beautiful car (despite being it a fat and kind of ugly SUV). Tesla buyers are easy to please. Many of them consider Tesla a "luxury car" even - which it is, compared to a Ford or GM Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    MKSGR:
    CGX car nut:

     

    Musk, once again, has sent Tesla into a competition that it never needed to enter.  Few Tesla current and future owners care about that car's lap time at the Nürburgring; however, that time measure is a standard performance parameter released with the launch of nearly every new Porsche model.  Musk, and I have stated this obvious fact before, needs to concentrate on making the company profitable starting now; the obsequious capital markets will not remain this way forever.  By the end of 2020, Volkswagen Group will have at least five different EVs, at different pricing points, on market.  This doesn't include new entrants by Mercedes, BMW, Nissan, and General Motors.  

    Totally agree. We even had posters here who gladly praised a Tesla X as a beautiful car (despite being it a fat and kind of ugly SUV). Tesla buyers are easy to please. Many of them consider Tesla a "luxury car" even - which it is, compared to a Ford or GM Smiley

    Ford and General Motors occasionally produce a solid A-/B+ automobile.  I recall that in 1992, Cadillac introduced the third generation Seville and it blended style, performance, and quality into an attractive price package.  I also think that the C8 Corvette has great potential and the Lincoln Aviator, while derivate of a Range Rover Velar, has potential.   All are built to a higher level of quality than Tesla's current product portfolio.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Not sure if everyone on RT is aware of Porsche Engineering, the engineering services arm of Porsche, publishes a magazine, aptly named, Porsche Engineering.  These wonderfully prepared issues demonstrate the engineering prowess within Porsche and, more importantly, are available for free.  https://www.porscheengineering.com/peg/en/about/magazine/ 

    The remaining Tesla enthusiasts on RT may actually learn something about Porsche's capabilities and test facilities.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Tesla is in fact claiming the record for a four sedan.

    https://electrek.co/2019/09/19/tesla-model-s-plaid-time-nurburgring-coming-back/


    --

    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    They broke down on the Wednesday run they are not even trying on the 21st?? That's is, they are leaning Germany? and after all the theatricals and boasting we end up with a "we could of done a 7:20"? Ahahahahaaaa... priceless  

    Entertainment still not over yet, we still have the Sport Auto test indecision


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    nberry:

    Tesla is in fact claiming the record for a four sedan.

    https://electrek.co/2019/09/19/tesla-model-s-plaid-time-nurburgring-coming-back/

    Fred Lambert of Electrek is a twit and lacks technical knowhow.  He references a Tesla Tweet stating the Model S can, not did, a 7:20 lap time.  That one word is significant and does not imply that Tesla literally set that time.  Surprised that a lawyer didn’t parse the hell out of that article.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Twitter is having a blast with that "our data indicates..." instead of a real lap time tweet, the responses are hilarious, but I don't know which are more funny, the memes and jokes or the responses from the gullible clueless Tesla minions 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/tesla/status/1174740201421377537?ref_url=https%3a%2f%2felectrek.co%2f2019%2f09%2f19%2ftesla-model-s-p...


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    CGX car nut:
    nberry:

    Tesla is in fact claiming the record for a four sedan.

    https://electrek.co/2019/09/19/tesla-model-s-plaid-time-nurburgring-coming-back/

    Fred Lambert of Electrek is a twit and lacks technical knowhow.  He references a Tesla Tweet stating the Model S can, not did, a 7:20 lap time.  That one word is significant and does not imply that Tesla literally set that time.  Surprised that a lawyer didn’t parse the hell out of that article.  

    Read the first paragraph of the article slowly out loud so that your massive brain can absorb and understand the meaning of the paragraph.Smiley 

     


    --

    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I nberry:
    CGX car nut:
    nberry:

    Tesla is in fact claiming the record for a four sedan.

    https://electrek.co/2019/09/19/tesla-model-s-plaid-time-nurburgring-coming-back/

    Fred Lambert of Electrek is a twit and lacks technical knowhow.  He references a Tesla Tweet stating the Model S can, not did, a 7:20 lap time.  That one word is significant and does not imply that Tesla literally set that time.  Surprised that a lawyer didn’t parse the hell out of that article.  

    Read the first paragraph of the article slowly out loud so that your massive brain can absorb and understand the meaning of the paragraph.Smiley 

     

    Read this selection from the linked article:

    ”Now Tesla confirmed that its own data shows that the “Model S Plaid” can achieve a 7:20 time:

    Data from our track tests indicates that Model S Plaid can achieve 7:20 at the Nürburgring. 

    With some improvements, 7:05 may be possible when Model S returns next month.

    — Tesla (@Tesla) September 19, 2019

     

    Tesla probably cannot say that it “achieved” the record time because Nürburgring doesn’t allow official times outside of specific racing sessions.”

    That statement is where I take umbrage.  It is unsubstantiated and mere noise.   My brain is probably smaller than the most but with more gyri and sulci.

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    The whole Tesla fan base believes the fictitious laptime because they want it to be true. That’s probably what Musk wanted. Fortunately there will be the Sport Auto test.

    It reminds me of Lotus’ 3-Eleven laptime, which was also only “calculated” but advertised with a video clip where it passed a GT3 RS (that was on a cool down lap or driven by a rookie). The fan base went viral.


    --

    2018 White 911 GT3


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    CGX car nut:
     

    Read this selection from the linked article:

    ”Now Tesla confirmed that its own data shows that the “Model S Plaid” can achieve a 7:20 time:

    Data from our track tests indicates that Model S Plaid can achieve 7:20 at the Nürburgring. 

    With some improvements, 7:05 may be possible when Model S returns next month.

    — Tesla (@Tesla) September 19, 2019

     

    Tesla probably cannot say that it “achieved” the record time because Nürburgring doesn’t allow official times outside of specific racing sessions.”

    That statement is where I take umbrage.  It is unsubstantiated and mere noise.   My brain is probably smaller than the most but with more gyri and sulci.

     

    Their statement probably means they could not finish a single lap and create an artificial time based on segment times or theoretical times. A fake as typical for Tesla. They lie all the time.


     
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