Crown

Journalism in general is a declining art. Now it is all about opinion, leading questions, and opinion...

996FourEss:

Journalism in general is a declining art. Now it is all about opinion, leading questions, and opinion...

That article was originally publish in Car Magazine from the U.K.  That periodical was once one of the finest automotive publications available; however, over the last few years, and with subsequent changes of ownership, the quality of its writing can politely be described as mixed.  A handful of the old regulars remain include Georg Kacher, but the younger writers are content to provide page fillers.  The 992 GT3 article is such an example.  

One of the introduction sentence says what  is probably  happening   '':...   bring the GT3 experience to a wider audience. '''

The whole 911 range is moving .  GT3 will be a super GTS .  

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Porker:

Why does everyone keep saying it's a reveal? It's just a horrible render...

Very good question...fake news at it's best. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

996FourEss:

Journalism in general is a declining art. Now it is all about opinion, leading questions, and opinion...

 You forgot to add money...journalists and their families need to eat too. 

Also, some journalists love to bring in their own political "opinion" lately, even if a friend of mine (he is a well known journalist in Germany) claims that there never have been "neutral" journalists and all of them are biased. I remember however that many journalists in the past had a certain work ethic but apparently, this is...the past. 

In times of social media, it is more important to create headlines and content, the quality doesn't really matter.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Gnil:

The whole 911 range is moving .  GT3 will be a super GTS .  

I think as long as they use the Motorsport NA motor, GT suspension, brakes, and gearboxes, it's quite a bit beyond any GTS...

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

Gnil:

The whole 911 range is moving .  GT3 will be a super GTS .  

I think as long as they use the Motorsport NA motor, GT suspension, brakes, and gearboxes, it's quite a bit beyond any GTS...

I am not worried about efficiency , ( it will be better )  but more about the general feel . I am convinced  the 992 will loose a bit more of it s rawness , become even a bit more complacent then the 991 . 

Just looks at the  992 Carrera , they are feel more GT , even if they are faster and more efficient . 

If the GT3 has a good front end clearance it wil be a perfect DD in it's Touring form . 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

I have yet to drive a 992, so I can’t comment.  But in general you are correct -  newer ones always less raw and less feel.  That’s why having an old 911 is mandatory 

But the Nordschleife is no place for a 50-year old car, imo...

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

The 992 is rubbish, not a fan at all.

jamesdamanuk1:

The 992 is rubbish, not a fan at all.

Question: What makes it rubbish?  Whilst the perception is the 992 is a softer, less tactile 911 compared with the 991, the larger footprint allows Porsche to dial in more complaisant suspension settings with better tire patch control.  This means the 992 can approach the performance limits of the 991 GT3 and still produce an everyday useable ride.  

Quality has been stripped out, it feels cheal nasty and not worth the money. Porsche have become arrogent

Anyone got an update on when the 992 GT3 will be launched? While I am at it what happened to the turbo launch?

Tesla Model S P100d & Model X P90D & 2017 Sept 991.2 GT3. 2019 BMW M850i Convertible. Tesla Model 3 Performance on order. 

Theres talk about the timetable slipping with Turbo at geneva and GT3 at Goodwood. I havent heard anything definative. The last solid information was GT3 at Geneva. If they launch the Turbo in the media before Geneva then its possible that timetable may still hold. It would be unusual to launch their halo MS production car at a third part event like goodwood IMO. I was thinking that may be a place we get a glimpse of the GT4RS but we wont see that until after the GT3 launch. My money is still on Geneva. They have all but launched the Turbo/S with journos around the world having driven final pre production units. The GT3 should be road testing in January arund warmer parts of the world in lightly camo guise so we should see some spy pics emerge soon. If so I guess we are on track..

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2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

Looking forward to hearing more about the 992 GT3 engine... 

...thanks to Thomas Mader, Project Manager GT Road Car Engines at Porsche! 

Sounds like an interesting contribution from Porsche to an academic journal... 

...does anyone on Rennteam have access to this chapter? 

A bit of festive reading about the Porsche GT Engine family with thanks to a friendly Rennteam member! 

Best wishes to all our friends on Rennteam for the festive season! 

Porsche 992 GT3 mule spotted road testing on video...

Video Link: Porsche 992 GT3 mule

Another speculative photoshop of the 2020 Porsche 992 GT3... 

Thanks Boxster Coupe for the tech article. Although it doesnt give much away in detail it confirms what we know, that the MA176 engine had a number of inherent design faults (oiling and valvetrain friction/pressure tollerances) which have been addressed in the new MA177 engine design after extensive motorsports testing. The additional benefits of less parasitic loss (oil pressure) and lower friction with reinforced main components (crank shaft and con rods) is welcome.

I think the 992 GT3 with poetntial front hood S duct and rear goose neck high wing and exposed diffuser will make the car look significantly more motorsport orientated and agressive than the prior 991.2 GT3. I enjoy my manual 991.2 GT3 Clubsport on the track (and for weekend back road blasts) but remain very excited by the new cars significant leap in optics, handling and performance (and I understand them).

The 992 GT3 engine will be evolution not revolution with 4.0L MA177 main architecture and 6 x ITB and GPF as introduced on the speedster. I expect we will see a noticeable bump in mid range torque as we did between 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 but I dont expect the power to headline above 520PS in GT3 iteration. The biggest handling and performance developements will come from aero, track width, tyre patch, tyre improvements and suspension. I dont believe we will see much increase in weight (the current PDK-S 7 speed unit being used, addition of alloy rear quarter panels, composite hood and diffuser, lighter weight front and rear bumpers). Any additional weight will likely be the inevitable result of wider and larger wheels, wider fenders and GPF units.

Look forward to lightly camo units breaking cover for North American road testing early in the New Year!

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2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

macca993:

The 992 GT3 engine will be evolution not revolution with 4.0L MA177 main architecture and 6 x ITB and GPF as introduced on the speedster. I expect we will see a noticeable bump in mid range torque as we did between 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 but I dont expect the power to headline above 520PS in GT3 iteration.

That would be the smallest HP bump ever for a new GT3 generation (and by far the smallest on a percentage basis).  I'm going to guess a bit higher than that (I realize that boxes in Porsche a bit for the next RS and .2, but I still think they will push beyond the specs for the current 991.2 RS with the 992 GT3).

997 added 34PS (9%).  991 added 40PS (9%).  If 992 adds only 20PS, that is only 4%...  If they stay with the 9% bump, that would be 545PS - maybe a bit optimistic at 4.0L (but not entirely impossible with 4.2L if they intend to offer some electrical assistance to 992 RS and 992.2 GT3).  And even with 4.0L, 545hp is not much better specific output than 458 Speciale (if you don't take into account the weaker Italian horses )...

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Hi Grant. I hope you are right and I am wrong,

The engine will be 4.0L of that Im certain. 545bhp makes 550PS and 137.5PS per litre. The 991.2 GT3RS made 130 PS per litre. If memory serves me correct the 458 speciale made 128 bhp/L so roughtly where the 991.2 GT3RS sits.

If we look at the GT family document above it would appear that the most agressive tune of the race engine over the last couple of years was 560PS (140 PS/L) for a limit of around 9250-9450 rpm - RSR & R. I think at these limits the engine was running around 50 hours life cycle and for the less stressed Cup output and redline were reduced but engine life was increased to 100 hrs.

Given Porsche need the 992 GT3 to be road durable I would be very suprised if they went over 132 PS/L. So Im thinking 520 bhp maximum (525PS).

Of course Id love to be wrong. However for this particular generation leap I think you will find that the chassis/tyre/aero upgrades will out match any dispacement or hp upgrades used between pervious generations. We will likely see a 7.00 Ring time on 180 treadwear tyres with this car. Compare that to 991.1 GT3 times of 7.28 and its more of an improvement than even the difference between 991.1 GT3 and 997.2 GT3 Ring times (7.42). 

So the 2020 992 GT3 could be 6.25% faster than the 2013 991.1 GT3 (PDK for PDK). This is DOUBLE the 3% benefit that the 2013 991.1 GT3 had over the 2007 997.1 GT3.

So I guess its maths and how you cut the definition of performance. For outright power/torque Porsche will always be limited by a NA flat six engine compared to its competition. However Porsche are clever at making less go further.

My take on the 992 GT3 is it will be the largest leap in architecture we have seen since the 991.1 GT3 and possibly the most radical from a form factor we have seen since 2000 996 GT3.

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2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

Sorry, I mixed my units.  I meant 545PS as the upper limit.  Speciale was 133ps/L.  I think (hope) we’ll see something more than 520ps...

I like your focus on laptimes rather than ps/tq 

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Yeah it confusing even more so because the interweb has different outputs for the Speciale depending where you look but consensus is you are right it s about 132.6 bhp per Litre. I dont believe thats been matched in a production car before or since but I could be wrong. The speciale also has a 9000 limit as you know...

So if we assume that the 992 GT3 will continue with the 4.0L archietcure and achieve the Speciale P2W ratio then we could be seeing around 532PS. That is possible (525bhp approx). They may need to extend the RPM to 9250 which would also be nice.

I still think the 992 GT3 will be all about chassis/platform rather than engine. The possibilit of a front S duct appeals to me. I think the car would look very agressive with that and the larger rear diffuser and the goose neck style wing we are seeing on the test mules.

In the beginning I thought the test mules rear wing set up looked ugly. Now asfter seeing it for 14 months and also on the GT4RS mule Im starting to like it! Its funny how time and trends change things. I suspect by the time one of these is in our garages it will make the 991.2 look skinny and quaint. But then again I parked a friends 993 in my garage last week and next to the Gt3 it looks very skinny and quaint. I wish cars were still that size/width!

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2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

Think the Speciale engine still holds the record for NA output at 133bhp/litre, it just nipped the 918's 130.2bhp/litre back then.

But the 918's engine still holds the Porsche record for highest output per litre, the 991.2 GT3RS is close at 128.25bhp/litre.

Those numbers check out.

In reality that would mean the best we could reasonably expect without any KERs style involvement is 130bhp per litre or 520bhp - 525PS.

All that beng said I believe the ITB will allow them to torque fill some of the mid range curve perhaps 10-15% higher than the 991.2 GT3 which in my opinion/experience was already noticebaly fatter than i the 991.1 GT3 (again I think around a 10%+ bump in some places).

If the 991.2 GT3 RS is reasonably estimated to be around 7.03 at the Ring on Cup2 (non R comp) with a factory driver then my view is the 992 GT3 will have a realistic chance of posting a 7.00 on Cup2 with the benefit of near 991.2 GT3RS size tyre patch and track, similar power with likely more torque fill, close to equivalent aero and improved damper and chassis management. I also expect the new 255/315 20/21" Michelin Cup2 tyre will be the latest and quickest yet formulation.

This would make the PDK 992 GT2 3.0% quicker at the Ring using Porsche factory drivers, than the outgoing 991.2 GT3 and 6.25% quicker than the 991.1 GT3. In my mind that is the kind of math that the marketing department at Porsche would sign off on...

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2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

A higher max rev band (9200 ish) with an updated PDK ECU and some ratio fettling may also help in achieving a better on track performance outcome for the 992 GT3 if they choose to delve that deep for this iteration. I think however that their development costs for this 992 generation GT3 will be spent on the chassis/aero which they are making significant changes on a new platform. They have afterall already spent development money on the 4.)L ITB GPF engine for the Speedster in the outgoing 991.2 gen car.  I expect the RS version may focus more on the mechanical drivetrain (gearbox, displacement posible hybrid). 

Ive been led to understand they PCCB brakes will be the enlarged and updated version used on the Turbo/S which we will learn more about shortly but its unclear if the steel package will see any attention for the 992.1 GT3. The PCCB is 10-15% larger swept area up front with lighter bell and 10 piston caliper etc. The rear is still a 4 pistone unit...

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2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)

macca993:

In reality that would mean the best we could reasonably expect without any KERs style involvement is 130bhp per litre or 520bhp - 525PS.

Maybe it's unlikely, but I don't see why the 992 GT3's upper performance has to be bounded by older benchmarks in the 918 and 458S.  Sure, it's harder to do with fewer large cylinders.  But, I think the 991.3 RS 4.0L motor is very close technically to the GT3R and RSR motor (details kindly provided a few posts higher in this thread).  No, the race motors don't have OPF's, but they do have catalytic converters and make over the 545hp I claimed as the upper boundary while using air intake restrictors and pump fuel. 

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Interesting discussion guys! 

One question is when we will see a 4.2 litre Porsche motorsport flat-six to homologate the 2019 Porsche 911 RSR...

...any thoughts? 

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Interesting discussion guys! 

One question is when we will see a 4.2 litre Porsche motorsport flat-six to homologate the 2019 Porsche 911 RSR...

People here seem convinced that it’s not coming in the 992 GT3.  I don’t know why it’s not possible.  But if not, I guess it’s coming with 992 RS or 50th Anniversary Carrera RS...

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

I think the 4.2L will be implemented as:

992.1 GT3 = 4.0L 

992.1 RS = 4.2L (RS homologates RSR)

992.2 GT3 = 4.2L (from prior RS)

992.2 RS = 4.2L + mild electrification

Porsche will have no trouble selling every example of the above cars without going “above and beyond” what I laid out above in terms of what they offer for the MSRP.  There will be few other cars available that offer NA engines and a manual option, and none in the same segment: Miata, Camaro (which may die), Mustang.  Corvette won’t offer manual, R8 dies soon (and second gen never offered manual), next gen Huracan won’t offer manual either.

A final point, I believe that the RSR doesn’t have a catalytic converter (not that it matters).  You can see the header configuration in the technical paper above.