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    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    IMO it's not the death of Manual, but the death of the torque converter in real sports cars.Porsche is the last one to use them in their cars because they don't want to develop a real semi-manual(too expensive????), but most of the other true sport cars makers have done it.

    Torque converter is obsolete and will always be because it looses more power than a normal clutch; so any top transmission will use a real clutch and not one of these oily things, even if the concept is well enhanced.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    What you failed to mention is the other anachronism Porsche is clinging to. The rear engine set up. It has been past its usefulness for years yet Porsche continues it because it has an avid base of customers who have not moved on technologically. Clearly Porsche can and does engineer a car which will perform better than the antiquated rear engine.

    I suspect they are waiting for the right time to jettison this relic from the past.



    "Avid base" that has "not moved on"? That could be the understatement of the year around here.

    In the thread about the car writer who had a favourable impression of the Cayman one of the posters here tried to tell me there is no such thing as a mid-engine car with 50/50 weight distribution, that 50/50 balance only existed on front engine cars, and that rear weighted--even in the modern all-wheel drive era--was superior regardless.

    I didn't even respond. How can you argue with someone who is that clueless? 911's do something to the brain I guess.

    For the poster in question, by the way, a mid engine car is, by definition, one with the engine between the centerline of the axels. It can be in front of, or behind, the cockpit. A front engine car has the engine over the front axel.

    Regarding Porsche's own mid-engine design, test driver Walter Rohrl had this to say about the Cayman:
    "If it is a very twisty road, I believe yes (the Cayman is quicker than the 911). In second and third-gear corners then I feel it is more precise - it is so, so competent."

    The 911 remains king in Porsche's lineup and with its current engine layout because hords of fans still buy them and redesign and retooling cost a fortune.

    When even rennteam posters believe only front engine cars, not mid-engine, can achieve a 50/50 weight balance and think Walter Rohrl doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm sure it will be a long time before Porsche needs to worry about changing the 911's basic layout.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    faterikcartman said:
    In the thread about the car writer who had a favourable impression of the Cayman one of the posters here tried to tell me there is no such thing as a mid-engine car with 50/50 weight distribution, that 50/50 balance only existed on front engine cars, and that rear weighted--even in the modern all-wheel drive era--was superior regardless.



    Pssst..You'd better check your facts before badmouthing a guy (Carlos) who really knows what's talking about. Otherwise you'll just come across like an uninformed jerk.
    ALL the good sportscars are rear-weighted. All racecars are also rearweighted. Rear weight bias IS superior.

    Why don't YOU tell us a mid-engined car with 50/50 weight balance?
    And lemme guess, you're a cayman fan? (which also has a rear weight bias, btw - 55% rear/45% front)

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    nberry said:I suspect they are waiting for the right time to jettison this relic from the past.


    nick,
    surely you're old enougth to remember when they did try to jettison the 911. it just kept selling even with the new models they brought out.
    beefed up boxsters and caymans could possibly take down the 911 now but not until they get the horse power.

    btw how much is the bet on the cgt resale value?

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    A 50 50 weight bias as the handling "ideal" is a popular myth probably based upon "50 50" sounding logical, "fair" or "even." This myth was started by automobile journalists.

    Show me a non production based mid engine race car that has the "magical" a 50-50 weight balance. None do. All of them have a rear weight bias for traction and handling reasons.

    Why? Simple. Its about weight transfer when accellerating and braking to better control momentum from that. That is also why there are NO modern front mid engine purpose built race cars in open unlimited prototype class racing. Seen any F1 cars lately with perfect 50/50 weight bias?No.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Lets remember that Porsche sells cars in Europe as well, not only in the US and here if Porsche decides to sell only auto-boxes they are instantly shaving off a part of the market without any mayor benefit



    Actually... Porsche sells more tiptronic equipped cars in Europe [perhaps even in Germany] than in the US. It is difficult to find a tip car in the US.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    There is no way they would only offer a tip vs PDK transmission. The PDK does everything the tip does and why should it be so much more expensive? It's been in numerous Audi and VWs for years now and has a great reputation and is no more expensive than a normal auto.

    When I drove an Audi TT with DSG (their name for PDK) I have to admit that I spent most of the time driving in auto mode and when I wanted to drive fast, I put it into sport auto mode. The paddles were fun, but the sport auto mode was quicker. Even the Stig on BBC's Top Gear drove this car in the sport auto mode as you never get a pre-select error (which it has to be said you can get on the manual mode).

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    ON the topic of manual vs tip, I guess you can look at the AMV8, only manual, as it is touted as a fun sports car.

    I rather have a fun car to drive than the highest performing car that feels like a Playstation, just me...

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    Quote:
    CF said:
    I give up.
    Why do I even divulge information which you dont seem to appreciate and understand.



    What a childish attitude you have. In your eyes, Porsche can do no wrong!



    Dont stink up the joint with personal accusations.

    For most of the people here English is a second language with vernacular and nuances they do not know perfectly.

    So take a chill pill.



    Ronny was pretty harsh in making his point I agree. But I also agree with the point he is making. I was very surprised to read CF's "I give up" post. It made me feel like someone was telling us that no discussion on the matter was possible. CF may be right about Porsche's intent to ditch manual trannies, but surely we don't all have to like the idea? I actually agree with Carlos. Doing away with manual gearboxes would not go down well in Europe where a lot of us do like to shift manually. I've driven a lot of different transmissions: manual of course, but also BMW's SMG in an M3 and Audi's DSG. Both of those are great but IMO, they don't give the same satisfaction as a manual. Also, on the Ferraris I have tried, the manual box was not as nice to use as the F1 box. Maybe that's why they are so popular with Ferari owners. But BMW's 6 manual in the M3 is certainly as nice to use as the SMG...

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Lets remember that Porsche sells cars in Europe as well, not only in the US and here if Porsche decides to sell only auto-boxes they are instantly shaving off a part of the market without any mayor benefit. A manual box is not hard to make, or develop, they are not expensive and they will have to offer io as an option since they are many people who cannot think of a real sportcar that does not allow you the pleasure and challenge of a clutch and stick. Not to mention the image they would get

    It doesn't matter how good the PDK and nay future auto-tranny is, there is still not clutch and manual engament of the transmission, that to many sportcar enthusiasts is a very challenging, leasurable and integral part of the sportcar driving experience.

    And for racecars you have to fit what gives the most performance period, but for a street car you go with what ever gives you more pleasure to drive, and let me tell you a driver with experience driving a manual is just as fast on the streets and mountain roads with a manual than with any auto.

    If Porsche does not give the manal as an option I would bve looking else were into my REAL sportcar, its just that important. Poseurs driving to starbucks or stoplight racers are not the only buyers of Porsches. And poeple with legitimate reasons to buy an auto (people with tough communtes, back problems, confort oriented, etc) are not 100% of the market.


    you are right carlos ,but the main problem is that when porsche was a small manufacturer ,90% of the customers were sports oriented like you and me,and at the time 90% of sales were manual ,these days tiptronic sales count for 80% of total sales ,and IMO this number will grow ,specially after the tt performance figures.the entire philosophy at porsche changed :it was an exclusive supercar(more with ferrari and lamborghini league),it has become an everyday ,affordable (boxster,cayman cayenne),sports car mass manufacturer ,it has its pros and cons...
    i agree with cf ,manual days are counted,and for the last warriors of manual like us ,instead of loosing us as customers they will do their best to convince us of tip,pdk by better performance

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    CF said:
    I give up.
    Why do I even divulge information which you dont seem to appreciate and understand.



    Don't give up.

    People do understand the impact of the changes to the Turbo. Liking them is another matter.

    Not all users are technology driven. Some prefer more skill based individual and visceral driving dynamics instead of
    depending on lines of code.





    I echo Jim's comments here and above-don't give up, this is a very important thread. Porsche CAN and SHOULD make the 911Turbo (997-998-999?) with MORE POWER, and LESS WEIGHT, after all, they have been doing this since day 1, just too incrementally slowly....

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Look what happened when BMW launched the new E60 M5 with only the SMG tranny. The vocal American BMW enthusiasts forced them to develop a manual tranny and now it will be released sometime in the near future. Let it be said that the M5 is not even a sportscar, yet enough people feel it should have a manual option available.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    icon said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:I suspect they are waiting for the right time to jettison this relic from the past.


    nick,
    surely you're old enougth to remember when they did try to jettison the 911. it just kept selling even with the new models they brought out.
    beefed up boxsters and caymans could possibly take down the 911 now but not until they get the horse power.

    btw how much is the bet on the cgt resale value?



    Give the Boxster and Cayman 350 or more hp and the 911 is kaput save for the TT!

    Who has a bet on the CGT? BTW here is the latest FWIW

    From Richard Sloan of Sloan Cars - http://www.sloancars.com/

    << The C GT are doing $310 to $335 at the auctions the market is still falling. Any insurance carrier will insure the car as long as the driver has a clean record. Liberty Mutual and Progressive have no issues insuring them. You write the check and they will deliver. >>

    FYI ...

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    but, again, why not offer PDK or manual rather than Tiptronic vs. PDK? Does the Tip do something that you don't think PDK will be capable of?



    The point is: the Tiptronic (speaking of the 997 Turbo version) does something, that the manual isn't capable of. And as soon as some of you guys will start to understand this, it will be to late.

    You don't listen and so don't others: I was ONLY referring to the advantages of the NEW Tiptronic version in the NEW 997 Turbo with the NEW VTG technology. I never said that someone should buy a 997 Carrera with Tiptronic, although it's Tip is much better than on the previous 996 models.

    Or to give you guys a last hint (and I'm sure that I'm going to be in trouble but I'm fed up with repeating myself): the 997 Turbo gets PDK in around 18 months. The Tiptronic S is faster than manual. The whole shifting process is an integral part of the networked electronics design of the 997 Turbo. The PDK will have a similar setup... And if you guys still didn't get the point, I'm

    No, don't even bother to ask. Maybe ask yourself something else: why does someone like me go for Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo?!

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    RC said:
    No, don't even bother to ask. Maybe ask yourself something else: why does someone like me go for Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo?!



    Because you love speed. Enough said.

    BTW, I still contend that if there is a reason to doubt Tiptronic, it will because of how it changes the driving experience. It all depends how well the software is written and driver preference. Performance is only part of it.

    - Justin

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    No, don't even bother to ask. Maybe ask yourself something else: why does someone like me go for Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo?!



    Because you love speed. Enough said.


    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    RC said:



    Maybe ask yourself something else: why does someone like me go for Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo?!



    In fact one thing that make me think is why you go with tip..why??

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    RC, you simply love Porsche too much! And you trust them too much also!
    The fact that you drive Cayenne Turbo(TIP) and you wife have Boxster S(TIP) speak for itself... From first final data about new Turbo my guess was that you will go for TIP.
    Enjoy it! Each of us has its own choice...
    My personal one is manual with LSD but, that's me.
    I want to control the car as far as possible... And that is only possilbe with manual. TIP may be faster in straight line and if old lady in new Turbo(TIP) overtake me in straight line I will be happy for her! But, as good as TIP is, my guess is that small AI inside the blackbox will kill some of driving pleasures, specially on twisty roads...
    Again just my opinion...

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Porsche will be the king again (AS NOW IT IS NOT) when is going to produce cars with PDK..
    everything else now... (Tiptronic S or Manual) is old technology and dont help the image of Porsche..
    On one hand i am happy that they didnt make it this time... (As their basic target was to produce new models to EARN MORE MONEY) that to make their cars even better...

    GT3 RS should had PDK (WTF they wait for?)
    997TT should also had PDK... (The King is Dead?? Or it became AUTOMATIC ??? )

    Finaly i have to add, that i cant think of a WORST INVESTMENT of buying now a GT3 or 997TT either it is a Tiptronic or Manual..
    When Porsche realise how far behind they are and produce FINALY the PDK you wont know where to sell your cars...
    And noone will want to buy an old technology car...
    (The famous law of Demand and Supply)

    Porsche gave to its competitors... (Lambo and Ferrari) the best chance to earn market share...

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Very well said, Ferrari had the F1 transmission since the f355! Porsche should have had the PDK or similar a similar system years ago, fitting their sporting profile.

    I'm very surprised they brought out the tiptronic with only 5 gears! Even a Ford Falcon family sedan in Australia comes with a 6 speed auto!

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    For me the 355 was the last good Ferrari. I still have to drive the 430, but counting that F430 probably has one of the worst manual gearboxes, F1 is the only option.

    Of course new models are faster, grip more, produce better times. But from the emotional and handling point of view just looking and driving the 355 is the best Ferreri have made.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    Aisxos said:
    Porsche will be the king again (AS NOW IT IS NOT) when is going to produce cars with PDK..
    everything else now... (Tiptronic S or Manual) is old technology and dont help the image of Porsche..
    On one hand i am happy that they didnt make it this time... (As their basic target was to produce new models to EARN MORE MONEY) that to make their cars even better...

    GT3 RS should had PDK (WTF they wait for?)
    997TT should also had PDK... (The King is Dead?? Or it became AUTOMATIC ??? )

    Finaly i have to add, that i cant think of a WORST INVESTMENT of buying now a GT3 or 997TT either it is a Tiptronic or Manual..
    When Porsche realise how far behind they are and produce FINALY the PDK you wont know where to sell your cars...
    And noone will want to buy an old technology car...
    (The famous law of Demand and Supply)

    Porsche gave to its competitors... (Lambo and Ferrari) the best chance to earn market share...



    I agree its very disappointing that PDK is not available at launch from an emotional point of view . However, I think we should all reserve judgement till we have actually driven the car. Until then its all pure conjecture.I plan do that and then decide whether to just sit it out until PDK arrives. Before the manual lovers (of which I am one) flame me , let me add that this is purely a practicality driven decision because of daily London driving with a 3 year old in the back. As for Tip resale values once PDK come out you may well be right, but knowing Porsche, I suspect that PDK will be priced well above Tip .

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Yes I love conspiracies and I am admittedly stirring the pot....

    What is preventing Porsche from installing a PDK tranny and calling it an improved Tiptronic? It *could* explain a few things....

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    crayphile said:
    Quote:
    Aisxos said:
    Porsche will be the king again (AS NOW IT IS NOT) when is going to produce cars with PDK..
    everything else now... (Tiptronic S or Manual) is old technology and dont help the image of Porsche..
    On one hand i am happy that they didnt make it this time... (As their basic target was to produce new models to EARN MORE MONEY) that to make their cars even better...

    GT3 RS should had PDK (WTF they wait for?)
    997TT should also had PDK... (The King is Dead?? Or it became AUTOMATIC ??? )

    Finaly i have to add, that i cant think of a WORST INVESTMENT of buying now a GT3 or 997TT either it is a Tiptronic or Manual..
    When Porsche realise how far behind they are and produce FINALY the PDK you wont know where to sell your cars...
    And noone will want to buy an old technology car...
    (The famous law of Demand and Supply)

    Porsche gave to its competitors... (Lambo and Ferrari) the best chance to earn market share...



    I agree its very disappointing that PDK is not available at launch from an emotional point of view . However, I think we should all reserve judgement till we have actually driven the car. Until then its all pure conjecture.I plan do that and then decide whether to just sit it out until PDK arrives. Before the manual lovers (of which I am one) flame me , let me add that this is purely a practicality driven decision because of daily London driving with a 3 year old in the back. As for Tip resale values once PDK come out you may well be right, but knowing Porsche, I suspect that PDK will be priced well above Tip .



    There are other cars that are better suited for 3 year olds in the back seat. That's great that Porsche can pull it off however I don't think it is something they should be thinking about when designing a high end sports car. Auto (tip) has no place in the TT. It should've been PDK or manual only.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    cookieguy1 said:
    Yes I love conspiracies and I am admittedly stirring the pot....

    What is preventing Porsche from installing a PDK tranny and calling it an improved Tiptronic? It *could* explain a few things....



    I honestly could care less what they call it as long as it doesn't include the goofy buttons on the steering wheel. It sucks.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    Branimir said: ... My personal one is manual with LSD but, that's me. I want to control the car as far as possible... And that is only possilbe with manual. TIP may be faster in straight line and if old lady in new Turbo(TIP) overtake me in straight line I will be happy for her! But, as good as TIP is, my guess is that small AI inside the blackbox will kill some of driving pleasures, specially on twisty roads...
    Again just my opinion...



    Have you ever driven a tip? Unless you are an exceptional driver AND (IMPORTANT) you do not care about trashing your clutch/transmission doing super aggressive shift changes, you will never shift as quickly as a Tip-S (in manual mode). The only exception (by a small amount) is launch, but once the car is launched, shifts withn the 2nd to 6th gear are faster made by a tip which in that range does not use the torque converter.

    DISCLAIMER: I do drive a 6-speed, but maybe not for much longer. My comment above is just an unbiased observation of reality.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    A 50 50 weight bias as the handling "ideal" is a popular myth probably based upon "50 50" sounding logical, "fair" or "even." This myth was started by automobile journalists.

    Show me a non production based mid engine race car that has the "magical" a 50-50 weight balance. None do. All of them have a rear weight bias for traction and handling reasons.

    Why? Simple. Its about weight transfer when accellerating and braking to better control momentum from that. That is also why there are NO modern front mid engine purpose built race cars in open unlimited prototype class racing. Seen any F1 cars lately with perfect 50/50 weight bias?No.




    Damn good post...right on the money.

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    YES! I did! Now, did you drive SL55AMG? Well, I did and despite awsome power and torque I was not impressed with autobox... And this AMG autobox is way better then TIP in 997, IMO. I think it is very strange that Porsche is telling to all of us that autobox(TIP S) is the future for sportscars... Only Mercedes-AMG is using autoboxes, all other competitors(Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW-M, Corvette etc.) are using sequential or normal manual gearboxes.
    Do you really think that 5gear autobox in the future of sportscars? What will happened with TIP when(and IF) Porsche introduces PDK for Turbo? Regarding PDK only other sportcar that is using DSG type gearbox is Bugatti Veyron-7speed version. And you really did not understand my statement...

    Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Branimir said: ... My personal one is manual with LSD but, that's me. I want to control the car as far as possible... And that is only possilbe with manual. TIP may be faster in straight line and if old lady in new Turbo(TIP) overtake me in straight line I will be happy for her! But, as good as TIP is, my guess is that small AI inside the blackbox will kill some of driving pleasures, specially on twisty roads...
    Again just my opinion...



    Have you ever driven a tip? Unless you are an exceptional driver AND (IMPORTANT) you do not care about trashing your clutch/transmission doing super aggressive shift changes, you will never shift as quickly as a Tip-S (in manual mode). The only exception (by a small amount) is launch, but once the car is launched, shifts withn the 2nd to 6th gear are faster made by a tip which in that range does not use the torque converter.

    DISCLAIMER: I do drive a 6-speed, but maybe not for much longer. My comment above is just an unbiased observation of reality.



    Why do people think if you change fast you trash the clutch.
    I can downchange reasonably faster than the Tip doing heel-toe (so result faster and smoother changes). Upchange is about the same with much better sound from the engine.

    But even if the Tip was way faster, that is not, many of us would sacrifice the "computer always changes perfect" for that little extra "involment". Because no matter how you see it, you wont feel any difference in performance unless you use a stopwatch.

    NO MATTER how you paint it, there is nothing better on an Auto/PDK/SMG/F1 comparing to a manual, except the typical "made your life easy" reasons:
    - No clutch during town
    - No miss shifts
    - Easier to get the performance of the car...

    But in the end a Porsche is a challenging car and you should enjoy and learn to use it, from learning its weight distribution to learning how to work the gearchange to get that perfect shift (smooth and fast).

    Many people prefer to let others do their job, but this is no reason to think the manuals are over.

    A 997 TT is not a straight line dragster.

    Re: Future of Porsche - PDMS - (In my opinion)

    Its cool that Porsche has developed the 997TT tiptronic to eliminate throttle/turbo lag for takeoff and optimized its shifting by networking with AWD and PASM. It is a huge step beyond a standard 997's Tiptronic! Quicker, faster. More dynamic!

    But! I am waiting for Porsches news about their next big advance- networking the 997TT's Tiptronics system directly with the drivers brain! PDMS - Porsche Driver Management System. A simple RFID implant chip like used on pets(!)would provide a data link between car systems and drivers neurological systems!

    No only could a Porsche then sense your identity, unlock the doors and start automatically, but once behind the wheel and going down the road, PDMS could also prompt the driver with mild electrical shocks to speed up, slow down, turn here or brake there!

    Information about future models could also be downloaded directly to the owners brain!

    Bring it on!


     
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