Crown

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trip said:
Sorry , overeacted a bit, needed to get my morning cup of coffee. Your post just reminded me of so many people blasting the 997tt for slow ring times and how it was only a little faster than the 996tt. These cars are incredibly fast and are not designed specifically for the fastest lap times. They are meant to be driven on road and track.

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MKSGR said:
Porsches used to be designed for optimum performance and track times in the past. Today, this no longer applies. It is essential that this is critizied on boards like Rennteam. If Porsche shall not refocus their cars will just be crappy life style products at some stage

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fritz said:What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.

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chuckd said:
Sad to say it, but Porsche is starting to lose its edge. The competition is getting tougher. 2008-2009 will be interesting for cars since the Nissan GT-R, M3 CSL, Audi RS8, Supercharged z06 will be coming out.

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fritz said:

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MKSGR said:
Porsches used to be designed for optimum performance and track times in the past. Today, this no longer applies. It is essential that this is critizied on boards like Rennteam. If Porsche shall not refocus their cars will just be crappy life style products at some stage

I often wonder if the myth about Porsches in the past having performance so far superior to all other contemporary cars circulates among people who are just too young to know that it was not the case?

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fritz said:

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MKSGR said:
What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.

Well, I have thought it through enough to base my own buying decisions on these thoughts

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MKSGR said:

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fritz said:

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MKSGR said:
Porsches used to be designed for optimum performance and track times in the past. Today, this no longer applies. It is essential that this is critizied on boards like Rennteam. If Porsche shall not refocus their cars will just be crappy life style products at some stage

I often wonder if the myth about Porsches in the past having performance so far superior to all other contemporary cars circulates among people who are just too young to know that it was not the case?

Agreed, it is a huge advantage to have some people on board who can relate about the pre-world war period based on own experiences

P.S.: Just compare Ferrari or Lamborghini today to what these companies were 5, 10 or even 15 years ago. Unlike Porsche the Italian manufactureres are in a different league today

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STRADALE said:

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fritz said:What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.

Wow! You read my mind! Well said.

I'm no Walter Rohl but when stacked up against good sports car drivers, compared to most people I know I'm better. I'm really growing tired of the constant negativity and the belly aching. The growns of people you could just tell never had these cars at 50% nevermind 90% and they're complaining and crying about performance or styling. And the negativity and just overall bitching seems to get people to follow along like sheep, it becomes cooler to cry about this and suddenly instead of thinking for themelves the belly aching apparently becomes the safe position or side to be on. I've never much cared to be in the majority or pile on just because that's what everyone else is saying so it just gets so boring and tiresome you want to slap some of these people (not really but a soft backhand bitch slap would be good) out of their moaning. It's a freakin Porsche Turbo/GT2 whatever a car w/ over 500 ft lbs of torque and 99.9% of the population would dream to own. I mean I was buying used Trans Am's not too long ago (okay so I was 18 yrs old but still) to be able to own cars like this I still feel like I'm a dream and dont want to wake up, I feel luckier than hell so when I read all this boo whoo this boooo whoo that it's like you want to shake the guy and yell in his face "wake up you spoiled jaded brat!!" Poor me, the spoiler is too big, boo whooo the wheels aren't the right shape, OMG there's too much stitching on the dash.... Geeeeezzz. I just don't get it. I'm not a fan of BMW but I don't hang out and spend all my time on BMW boards just to complain and bitch about the way those cars look wtf would make people do that? If you're not here because you love these cars what the hell are you here for to vent??????? Yeah, I know if you can't complain here about sports cars where are you going to do it, it's just seems to have turned into a complain-a-thon lately about such stupid stuff.. Whoooppsss went off there for a minute. Sorry. Okay, I'm good. LoL!!

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STRADALE said:

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fritz said:What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.

Wow! You read my mind! Well said.

I'm no Walter Rohl but when stacked up against good sports car drivers, compared to most people I know I'm better. I'm really growing tired of the constant negativity and the belly aching. The growns of people you could just tell never had these cars at 50% nevermind 90% and they're complaining and crying about performance or styling. And the negativity and just overall bitching seems to get people to follow along like sheep, it becomes cooler to cry about this and suddenly instead of thinking for themelves the belly aching apparently becomes the safe position or side to be on. I've never much cared to be in the majority or pile on just because that's what everyone else is saying so it just gets so boring and tiresome you want to slap some of these people (not really but a soft backhand bitch slap would be good) out of their moaning. It's a freakin Porsche Turbo/GT2 whatever a car w/ over 500 ft lbs of torque and 99.9% of the population would dream to own. I mean I was buying used Trans Am's not too long ago (okay so I was 18 yrs old but still) to be able to own cars like this I still feel like I'm a dream and dont want to wake up, I feel luckier than hell so when I read all this boo whoo this boooo whoo that it's like you want to shake the guy and yell in his face "wake up you spoiled jaded brat!!" Poor me, the spoiler is too big, boo whooo the wheels aren't the right shape, OMG there's too much stitching on the dash.... Geeeeezzz. I just don't get it. I'm not a fan of BMW but I don't hang out and spend all my time on BMW boards just to complain and bitch about the way those cars look wtf would make people do that? If you're not here because you love these cars what the hell are you here for to vent??????? Yeah, I know if you can't complain here about sports cars where are you going to do it, it's just seems to have turned into a complain-a-thon lately about such stupid stuff.. Whoooppsss went off there for a minute. Sorry. Okay, I'm good. LoL!!

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MKSGR said:

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fritz said:

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MKSGR said:
What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.

Well, I have thought it through enough to base my own buying decisions on these thoughts

Only started buying interesting new cars in past <10 yrs....so, perhaps too young to know these "good ole days" from an ownership/driving perspective, but, from what my elders tell me, P/F from 10+ yrs ago were like the slide rule/typewriter&white-out/rotary-dial phone, etc....gruesome stuff indeed....

Agree....Internet has created an unprecedented public forum for uninformed, resource-constrained people to whine about styling or post silly "kill"/public road-racing stories (presumably before jail or maybe from a prison cell somewhere ).....

But would argue, pre-rennteam, mfrs never had much direct feedback from sophisticated buyers/drivers....

Archaic car magazines have always been fairly worthless in terms of a valid perspective (vs what a jaded owner/driver may actually observe in daily, amateur driving on various public, urban roads...and, after calc'g cost of ownership upon trade-in, determine own "net" enjoyment value derived from car )....mfrs (via ad revs) have always underwritten the meager paychecks of auto journalists...and they don't hand out those journalist jobs to just anyone....

Automotive tech/safety/perf/daily-useability has dramatically increased in past 5 yrs ; overall advances are laudable, but any glaring lack of advances, e.g., P's Luddite gearboxes/F's dubious passive safety, needs to also be observed/criticized....

Competition is great for the consumer....if a mfr seems to lag in delivering innovation, driving enjoyment and value, a savvy consumer simply will purchase a car from the mfr(s) that is/are producing the best products....ultimately, mkt (esp savvy, frequent buyers) will determine (by sales and profitability) which mfrs are producing the best overall product for custs....and forums like rennteam are a great resource for mfrs' executives/engineers/marketers to better understand what many actual buyers are concluding re: their products...and those of direct competitors...

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fritz said:

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MKSGR said:

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fritz said:

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MKSGR said:
Porsches used to be designed for optimum performance and track times in the past. Today, this no longer applies. It is essential that this is critizied on boards like Rennteam. If Porsche shall not refocus their cars will just be crappy life style products at some stage

I often wonder if the myth about Porsches in the past having performance so far superior to all other contemporary cars circulates among people who are just too young to know that it was not the case?

Agreed, it is a huge advantage to have some people on board who can relate about the pre-world war period based on own experiences

P.S.: Just compare Ferrari or Lamborghini today to what these companies were 5, 10 or even 15 years ago. Unlike Porsche the Italian manufactureres are in a different league today

If Ferrari and Lamborghini had existed as brands pre-war then I sure as hell would not be the one to remember them but I do remember that there was such a car as a Lamborghini Miura before that brand get prostituted for a couple of decades.
I doubt that many people thought of the Porsche 911 as being in the same class as the contemporary Ferrari and Maserati models when the Italiens managed to get things right. It's just that in that era Italien supercars were a little too "exotic" for the German market, so it had to be satisfied with Alfa Romeos.

I won't even mention the 300SL.

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WBH said:
....and forums like rennteam are a great resource for mfrs' executives/engineers/marketers to better understand what many actual buyers are concluding re: their products...and those of direct competitors...

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WBH said:

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MKSGR said:
Agree....Internet has created an unprecedented public forum for uninformed,

The Internet is also an excellent platform for the informed to inform and influence the uninformed

Thus, the Internet is a huge threat to those car manufacturers trying to mislead uninformed buyers. Inadequate product developments are much more difficult to hide nowadays

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MKSGR said:
Just one example (not from the world-war period but more recent ): I still have a magazine test (dated 1993 or so) comparing 993TT with the then top ranking Ferrari 512M (!). The 993TT literally killed the Ferrari. I have another track test where the predecessor of the 993TT dominated the 512TR (predecessor of 512M).

Now look at what Porsche offers today: a 997TT with crappy PTM, mediocre PASM, old gear-box and performance below some of those Italian (and even US) competitors which were not even close to Porsche's perfection 5 or 10 years ago

I am really annoyed. Porsche is just plain average today

I would have loved to buy the 997TT before the first infos of the car were announced. Today, I am glad I did not buy it. My intution was right. I am afraid the same might happen in case of the GT2 (although I still hope for good GT2 test results).

If Ruf did not exist I would not buy any Porsche cars at all as the Italians offer better performing cars today

Zuffenhausen needs to wake up. The only way to make this happen is to complain as much as possible about their recent product news

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fritz said:
... but professionals like those are aware of the "noise-to-signal ratios" involved in information sources like clinics or the internet. They would apply their own "plausibility check" to what they hear and would filter out much of the content, leaving just the things they wanted to hear in the first place anyway.

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W8MM said:
Web info can be very interesting and even entertaining. But, in the end, it's all about making the cash register ring. If one sells the goods, it's hard to get upset by disappointing web chatter. If the merchandise sits around with no takers, that gets people's attention. Web-derived nuances and attitudes don't make as big an impression as actual cash. That's the real signal in the noise of a market.

Customers and potential customers that natter about on web forums are often motivated by a desire to get the latest information. It's a form of entertainment. The total appetite for "new and better" generally exceeds the ability of reality to supply it. If the flow of upbeat information is not fast enough or good enough to satiate absolutely everybody, a vacuum is created that sucks disappointment into the void.

Then starts the bitching and moaning. Its like a bunch of kids on a sugar high that want more, more and more sweet stuff until they crash in the most disagreeable way. Except, one can't merely send ones customers to bed and hide the candy from them.

From a manufacturer's point of view, trying to deliver more and more goodies to keep a smaller and smaller portion of a customer base satisfied is a fool's errand. It's expensive and tends to distract from the core mission. A business plan looking for long-term sustainability has to try the hardest for the biggest portion of its customers.

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fritz said:

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W8MM said:
Web info can be very interesting and even entertaining. But, in the end, it's all about making the cash register ring. If one sells the goods, it's hard to get upset by disappointing web chatter. If the merchandise sits around with no takers, that gets people's attention. Web-derived nuances and attitudes don't make as big an impression as actual cash. That's the real signal in the noise of a market.

Customers and potential customers that natter about on web forums are often motivated by a desire to get the latest information. It's a form of entertainment. The total appetite for "new and better" generally exceeds the ability of reality to supply it. If the flow of upbeat information is not fast enough or good enough to satiate absolutely everybody, a vacuum is created that sucks disappointment into the void.

Then starts the bitching and moaning. Its like a bunch of kids on a sugar high that want more, more and more sweet stuff until they crash in the most disagreeable way. Except, one can't merely send ones customers to bed and hide the candy from them.

From a manufacturer's point of view, trying to deliver more and more goodies to keep a smaller and smaller portion of a customer base satisfied is a fool's errand. It's expensive and tends to distract from the core mission. A business plan looking for long-term sustainability has to try the hardest for the biggest portion of its customers.

When you are talking about a commercial enterprise, as a opposed to "art-for-art's-sake", it has got to be tough to argue against well-documented financial success sustained over several years, as experienced by Porsche.

But that will not stop some car enthusiasts thinking that indulging their individual wishes should be a car manufacturer's core mission.

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Nickoz said:
I'm not wedded to the company. If there's a better car for me from another manufacturer when it comes time to trade my TT I'll buy it and not shed any tears for Porsche.

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MKSGR said:

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Nickoz said:
I'm not wedded to the company. If there's a better car for me from another manufacturer when it comes time to trade my TT I'll buy it and not shed any tears for Porsche.

You actually confirm my point

You are pragmatic Porsche buyer (like, probably, the majority of today's Porsche customers). You are not too focused on excellent performance. You just want daily usability some speed and some fun at a reasonable price.

The thing is: your demand profile can be easily met by several OEMs. In 2 years time you will probably find many alternatives (based on what you are looking for) to buying a Porsche.

Good for you - bad for Porsche. In such environment Porsche will always be second compared to the big ones (Audi, BMW, MB) and the best (Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.)

This is what I called "USP dilution" in my previous post.

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trip said:

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MKSGR said:

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Nickoz said:
I'm not wedded to the company. If there's a better car for me from another manufacturer when it comes time to trade my TT I'll buy it and not shed any tears for Porsche.

You actually confirm my point

You are pragmatic Porsche buyer (like, probably, the majority of today's Porsche customers). You are not too focused on excellent performance. You just want daily usability some speed and some fun at a reasonable price.

The thing is: your demand profile can be easily met by several OEMs. In 2 years time you will probably find many alternatives (based on what you are looking for) to buying a Porsche.

Good for you - bad for Porsche. In such environment Porsche will always be second compared to the big ones (Audi, BMW, MB) and the best (Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.)

This is what I called "USP dilution" in my previous post.

Seprerating porsche from "the best (ferrari/lamborghini)" seems rather opinionated. When I think of the best I picture Porsche/Ferrari in terms of overall enineering, performance, and quality.