Crown

Board: Other Sports Cars Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    MKW:
     

    Owners of these cars whose performwnce will be emasculated by installing new ECU programming will demand VW  buy backs globally ...no different than everyone here with a theoretical 991.2 3l turbo if Porsche had to do the same a year after you owned it due to emissions hnky panky and the result was 100 fewer horsepower ...you would own basically a lump of coal in terms of resale market !

    If the neutered engines have the same performance specs as initially advertised by VW they'd have no recourse on that, but may have argument about being duped into thinking they were being greener than they actually were. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bluelines:
    apias:

    What it could mean, is that diesel just is not a viable fuel for the type of engines automakers want to put in cars.

    I doubt very much they are using the same software. If they were, VW would have instantly fingered the producer of the software as to blame.

    These VW cars use Bosch engine management software. Off the shelf from Bosch, parameterized by VW to detect emission tests. No use to fingerpoint Bosch since the software simply does what VW has configured it to do...

    Well, regardless, once it's parameterized, it's effectively a different software, a different system, capable of good or evil, depending on how the manufacturer sets the parameters. 

    (Is it really a complete software or is it more of an SDK? Just out of curiosity, do you have a link to a description of how it works?)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bluelines:
    apias:

    What it could mean, is that diesel just is not a viable fuel for the type of engines automakers want to put in cars.

    I doubt very much they are using the same software. If they were, VW would have instantly fingered the producer of the software as to blame.

    These VW cars use Bosch engine management software. Off the shelf from Bosch, parameterized by VW to detect emission tests. No use to fingerpoint Bosch since the software simply does what VW has configured it to do...

    What?? Why would Bosch provide this ability?  This implicates Bosch.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    MKW:
    AJ:
    Very interesting but troubling times. I sometimes have the notion that this current trend of turbocharged motors is the tail wagging the dog. Turbocharging was quite popular in the 80s then disappeared as motors had to become more efficient. Now a decade or two later, almost all vehicles are being turbocharged regardless of class. Cheap power, but cleaner and more fuel efficient? Maybe for the test cycle, but in the real world?

    I have some  friends who whose prev Audis had gas V6s but opted for more EPA  " fuel efficient " 2L gasoline turbos when time came to upgrade but who got the same or worse real DD mileage , unless cars were driven with so light a throttle that they endangered themselves or others in the flow of traffic. 

    Part of the emissions " official drive cycle " game all the manufacturers have figured out and played with to " move the metal " and of which the end consumer was/is inconsequential 

    This is a very good point.  Where is the line drawn between writing emissions control software to yield emissions requirements, requiring the driver to "baby" the throttle and doing so which detects an emission test cycle?  One manufacturer may claim that their emissions control was meeting requirements, as long as the customer was "babying" the throttle, which also happens to coincide with an emissions test cycle application of the throttle.

    Is it any different than claiming your car gets 60 MPG, (as long as you drive 50 MPH, and not adjust your throttle position)?

    Maybe a new emissions test cycle calling for more variations of throttle and steering application needs to be written?

    The manufacturers may indeed know how to game the system, but are they really, truly, breaking the rules?


    --

     

    2005 997S Blk/Blk

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:
    bluelines:
    apias:

    What it could mean, is that diesel just is not a viable fuel for the type of engines automakers want to put in cars.

    I doubt very much they are using the same software. If they were, VW would have instantly fingered the producer of the software as to blame.

    These VW cars use Bosch engine management software. Off the shelf from Bosch, parameterized by VW to detect emission tests. No use to fingerpoint Bosch since the software simply does what VW has configured it to do...

    Well, regardless, once it's parameterized, it's effectively a different software, a different system, capable of good or evil, depending on how the manufacturer sets the parameters. 

    (Is it really a complete software or is it more of an SDK? Just out of curiosity, do you have a link to a description of how it works?)

    I read an article, but it is in Swedish Smiley I guess it won't help. I assume it is more like an SDK with an event-driven language... "Given this input, do this". 


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I'm not certain this is entirely accurate. I've been looking into it and everything I've seen indicates that Bosch provides components, but auto manufacturers write the software that controls them. For example:

    Bosch, the German car parts company, supplies components to VW, including fuel injection and exhaust treatment systems that reduce emissions. But people familiar with the cars said VW writes the software that deploys the equipment.

    -- http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ac6742b2-611d-11e5-a28b-50226830d644.html

    Bosch itself has said it:

    "develops injection and exhaust-gas treatment systems that can reduce emissions in every driving situation,” the Stuttgart, Germany, company added that “responsibility for calibrating and integrating the components supplied by Bosch into the system as a whole lies with VW."

    -- http://www.wsj.com/articles/auto-software-in-focus-after-volkswagen-flap-1442945494


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:
    bluelines:
    apias:

    What it could mean, is that diesel just is not a viable fuel for the type of engines automakers want to put in cars.

    I doubt very much they are using the same software. If they were, VW would have instantly fingered the producer of the software as to blame.

    These VW cars use Bosch engine management software. Off the shelf from Bosch, parameterized by VW to detect emission tests. No use to fingerpoint Bosch since the software simply does what VW has configured it to do...

    What?? Why would Bosch provide this ability?  This implicates Bosch.

    No. That does not implicate Bosch. VW set up the software to behave a certain way given a certain input. 


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bluelines:
     

    I read an article, but it is in Swedish Smiley I guess it won't help. I assume it is more like an SDK with an event-driven language... "Given this input, do this". 

    That sounds more like what I've been reading on this.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    As I understand, Bosch provides the software components for most parts of the car. Not only the engine, but the traction control, stability control, brakes, sensors, etc. I guess some things work out if the box, some things are configured depending on the car, some things are connected and given conditions how to behave. Hence it should not be rocket science to enable a configured low emission mode pending steering and wheels (i.e. to detect if the car is in an emission test).


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Correct, it shouldn't be rocket science.

    And I apologize for misquoting you earlier.


    --

     

    2005 997S Blk/Blk

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:

    ...I apologize for misquoting you earlier.

    No problem - JUST DONT DO IT AGAIN!

    Joking. Smiley

    Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Not exactly a preferred source, but: Volkswagen Scandal Opens Door to Possible Fiat Takeover


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    vtrader:

    The California emissions standard has always been stricter than the EPA's requirement. And before Whoopsy makes his comment, I remember how bad smog was in Los Angeles growing up where your eyes would constantly water and burn from the smog. We use to have tons of smog alert days, now that is history.

     

    when I was in college in LA in the 70s , if you looked east from the west side of LA towards downtown or Glendale/ Pasadena , the sky was always DARK BROWN , M-F , year round . Two or three days a year, on a suny weekend day after rain , people were all pointing out to each other how they could see the nearby San Gabriel Mtns , only 10 miles to the north . You can see those mountains every day now and the sky , thoough hazy white in the east on very hot still air days is no longer the color of mud

    the most significant change , no matter  where you live , is something those under 40 yrs old don't even think about : if you have followed a really old car ( built before 1968 ) you  notice its stinky strong  exhaust ..imagine every single car and truck on the road smelling like that at a time when air conditioning was still a factory option so your windows were open to suck it all in .  That was the way it was even into the mid 70s ! 

    I remember as a kid how putrid the whole neighborhood smelled every morning when all the cars started up cold ..the absoluute worst time  of each day ! 

     

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    11 million VW diesel engines in how many countries with so many fines, law suit claims, damage to dealers, brand trust lost, what a mega disaster. Where does Winterkorn plan to move to ? the moon?


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    EPA Expands VW Diesel Probe To Audi, Porsche V-6s; All Diesels To Be Tested

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100167_epa-expands-vw-diesel-probe-to-audi-porsche-v-6s-all-diesels-to-be-tested


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    "VW has in three days lost the entire value of the Peugeot car company twice over. It is a significant loss. Is it vulnerable? I would say in the short term there will be definitely be more than ripples - perhaps massive, massive issues to face - but it's probably too big a car company to fail. There are too many jobs, too many economies around the world, depending on Volkswagen's success. So I think there will be some support quietly in the background"

    Jim Holder, editorial director at Haymarket Automotive


    --

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    apias:
    Lars997:

    The share price just dropped underneath 100,- € - lowest low 95,51.... angelheartmail

    I think the board needs to meet today, not wait till Friday, and Winterkorn has to go whether he was responsible or not, to try and stop the bleeding. I can't believe they put this meeting off this long. 

    I've never understood the reasoning behind wanting to find a scapegoat regardless of actual culpability when things go wrong. It makes a mockery of real justice. To sack someone who is not guilty of direct involvement to stop the bleeding of the company is no different than a Mayan human sacrifice, and society should have moved on from there by now. 

    1.Winterkorn is the boss, he has the responsibility over all his people, so he has to go (and he did). This doesn't mean that he is the one who needs to go to prison or the one who has to face criminal charges but negligence is also punishable, so...

    2. The real culprit(s) need to be found, no doubt about it. He/she or they are facing prison time and a hefty fine, also very likely a personal liability if VW sends their lawyers after them (and I am pretty sure they will). It will take time though and it also needs to be clarified if the software engineers and their superiors were working on behalf of a direct order from their superiors, which I think they did. A simple software engineer or engineer doesn't do this stuff by his own, he found the "solution" but the green light comes from his superior or the superior of his superior.

    3. There may be some human sacrifice on behalf of VW but actually, I'm not so sure about it anymore. This is a huge scandal with international and political implications. Eventually, a governmental investigation committee will be created, which is a good thing because a third party gets involved, making it harder for VW to find a scapegoat fast and try to cover everything else up. It won't happen, I am pretty sure about this.

    Unfortunately, I also think that VW is done here. It will be very difficult for them to recover from this mess. I am not even talking about the business per se, people will still buy Audi and VW because the products aren't bad and most people couldn't care less about emissions, sad but true, even if the outrage is huge right now. This may actually be a good chance to buy a VW or Audi at a more attractive price because Audi/VW dealers are quite scared right now, at least over here in Germany. 

    Long story short: VW won't really recover from this, ever. Which brings another good point to the table: Could it be in the interest of the other brands within the VW Group to re-group and even get more independence, financially and from the decision-making process? VW will never achieve their goal to become the number one car maker in the world, so maybe it is time to re-think the strategy and concentrate on their core markets and products? Just saying.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    image.jpeg


    --

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    The VW Group will have to saved financially by the German government. The financial burden of this huge fiasco will keep multiplying and it won't just go away and no private investor will want to venture into this company and take enormous risks..

    The 6-7 billion EUR (half year's profit) which VW have set aside for the scandal appear too little to any reasonable person. Many more will be required.

    VW is too big for Germany in terms of jobs and prestige to be left alone. After Greece the German taxpayers will now be obliged to bail-out VW. I don't know if this will go down very well politically.

    I am very disappointed with Germans which I held in higher esteem. Not so much because of their fraudulent methods  but because they got caught by the Americans.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    It will be a game of musical management chairs until the decisive VW full board meeting tomorrow...

    If Porsche CEO Müller gets the nod as future VW group CEO, Porsche R&D head Hatz could be in line as his successor as Porche CEO. The latter move may depend on Hatz's potential involvement in the scandal as former senior exec in the power-train divison.

    Audi boss Stadler is a candidate for the CFO job to be vacated by current CFO Pötsch, who will move up to the Chairman role on the supervisory board but remain as CFO of holding company Porsche SE.

    The new VW brand CEO Diess, former BMW exec board member, could be earmarked as future VW group CEO following Müller's retirement (he is 62).

    Plan B could involve giving the VW group CEO job to Pötsch for now, until Diess has had a chance to prove himself over the next 2-3 years and under the radar of the scandal's fall-out.  


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    BMW may be the next culprit...just stay tuned. angry


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Sad but true...the stock market is rife with rumours about BMW following a report that a diesel powered X3 SUV substantantially exceeded Euro 6 emission limits in a recent test...the stock price is off more than 5 % this morning...


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    Does that surprise anyone here? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Things are getting ugly:

    Audi CEO Hackenberg and Porsche CEO Wolfgang Hatz also have to go... Both were responsible for development.

    Hatz leaving Porsche is a huge blow for Porsche in my opinion.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    Does that surprise anyone here? Smiley

    Of course it does, VW is a respected car manufacturer of high repute building top quality cars in the environmentally conscious Germany. That's why I purchased a VW Group product....the stress and guilt I now have driving such an environmentally and health  damaging car when I was sold the opposite.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley

    By VW they probably mean a number or all of the Group companies, including Porsche.

    Anyway, if the VW Group with all their technology cannot attain the targets set by governments IMO no one could.

    We cannot have our cake and eat it too. Meaning that we cannot have favourable PS and performance, low fuel consumption and low emissions all on the same vehicle. The future of the high performance vehicle will become even more expensive given that the manufacturers' figures won't be taken for granted from now on but will have to be independently tested and verified in real world situations.

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:
    RC:
    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    Does that surprise anyone here? Smiley

    Of course it does, VW is a respected car manufacturer of high repute building top quality cars in the environmentally conscious Germany. That's why I purchased a VW Group product....the stress and guilt I now have driving such an environmentally and health  damaging car when I was sold the opposite.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    I am contemplating burning all my four VW-Konzern cars in protest Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley

    By VW they probably mean a number or all of the Group companies, including Porsche.

    Anyway, if the VW Group with all their technology cannot attain the targets set by governments IMO no one could.

    I think that the point is that VW could have attained the emissions targets, but some people chose to cut corners (and costs) by not equipping engines to achieve performance and drivability targets whist at the same time fulfilling the legal emission requirements. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    RC:
    dreamcar:

    The German transport ministry have just announced that VW has also admitted cheating the European emission tests.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    Does that surprise anyone here? Smiley

    Of course it does, VW is a respected car manufacturer of high repute building top quality cars in the environmentally conscious Germany. That's why I purchased a VW Group product....the stress and guilt I now have driving such an environmentally and health  damaging car when I was sold the opposite.....Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    I am contemplating burning all my four VW-Konzern cars in protest Smiley

    That'll help the environment!   Smiley


    --

    fritz


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part I) Thread Closed 9/24/20 12:47 AM
    watt
    606726 2849
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/30/20 9:03 AM
    rhino
     
     
     
     
     
    373260 1279
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 6/8/21 7:15 PM
    JR-550
    89343 1087
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 5/12/21 3:30 PM
    WhoopsyM
    47013 344
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    36275 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/19/20 6:12 PM
    Leawood911
    34145 380
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 6/12/21 9:43 PM
    watt
    18611 384
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    5153 29
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 7/27/20 2:13 AM
    DJM48
    575214 5257
    Porsche Cayman GT4 5/4/21 4:46 PM
    Topspeed
    430655 3586
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 4/25/21 4:04 PM
    Topspeed
    368383 3916
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 5/27/21 6:14 PM
    Topspeed
    368265 3495
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 4/28/21 12:26 PM
    W8MM
    329900 3252
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/8/20 7:51 PM
    DJM48
    311529 2646
    Porsche Tesla Roadster 9/23/20 8:22 PM
    bluelines
    240675 4279
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 2/28/21 8:05 PM
    Topspeed
    232244 1542
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    162590 1379
    Others Alfa Romeo 4C 9/23/20 10:22 AM
    RCA
    138911 792
    Porsche 992 GT3 6/15/21 10:38 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    134226 2546
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    111033 1225
    McLaren F1 2/25/21 11:33 AM
    RCA
    77827 207
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 5/19/21 5:19 PM
    Leawood911
    75593 1167
    AMG AMG GT R 11/19/20 11:47 PM
    Topspeed
    66090 819
    Lambo Aventador and SV 4/20/21 3:21 PM
    CGX car nut
    65204 683
    Porsche 991 Speedster 9/3/20 4:29 PM
    Topspeed
    61160 878
    Porsche Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan 11/23/20 6:10 PM
    Topspeed
    45628 596
    Others Bugatti Chiron 6/9/21 6:51 AM
    Jean
    37644 479
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    34691 615
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 5/30/21 9:51 PM
    waiting for PDK
    33910 522
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 3/21/21 5:01 PM
    Topspeed
    29336 385
    270 items found, displaying 1 to 30.