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    Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    Just wondering how we stand here. When Porsche offers paddli shifting will you be excited, skeptical or loathsome?

    I got it in my BMW and it is great! Nothing beats the speed and ease of that unit. No regrets about jerking around with arm and leg to have a "feel" for the car. No power loss AND good in "automatic."

    As for the software, the BMW is a TEENY TINY but rough on __some__ edges but they will have that smoothed out by 07 I bet.

    So, are you for or against sequential manual gearboxes if offered on your new 2007 997/S?

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    i am totally for it and don't understand why Porsche hasn't had it sooner. i used to consider a sports car as being only in manual but after driving the Ferrari 360, i have changed my mind forever. at first, i thought it was only offered by companies with F1 experience, such as Ferrari and BMW. but now that Lamborghini has raised the stakes, i can't understand why Porsche doesn't offer it, as well. with the case of the Ferrari, it is a 6 speed in manual or auto mode. with the M3, it is a 5 speed in manual or auto mode. correct me if i am wrong, with the Tiptronic, there is a loss of one gear!

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    I have it on my Audi TT - it is the DSG system which Porsche are going to adopt. If you like paddle shifting on your BMW, wait until you try the DSG - it's absolutely fantastic. The only downside I would say is the fact that it doesn't really feel like driving - more like a Playstation game if I'm honest. So even though I love it, I'm looking forward to getting back to a manual / stick shift when my 997 arrives.

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    Quote:
    Raven said:
    I have it on my Audi TT - it is the DSG system which Porsche are going to adopt.



    Remember that Porsche had the DSG first and then AUDI adpted it while ago . I don't exactly remember but Porsche implemented it on their race cars but DSG never found its way to production cars.
    AUDI used Porsche's DSG desing for their cars.

    If someone can elaborate more.

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    mkultra,

    The M3 is also 6 speed manual and auto as well.

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    Sure, Porsche developed the PDK (dual-clutch sequential) and used it in the 80's on the Group C 956/962 race cars, then shortly after Audi started to use it the as well in race cars. But to give some credit to Audi, they are the first ones to develop it for street cars.

    I will be pleased if the DSG is offered by Porsche, even though I won't be getting one myself if available, the more options for our fellow P-car owners get the better. If it delivers what is promised, a 6 or 7 speed double clutch sequential will be much faster in shifting than BMW, Ferrari and such single clutch sequentials and manual gearboxes, it will weight similarly to a manual unlike the slush-boxes, it will deliver faster acceleration times than any other gerabox incl. manuals or single-clutch sequentials, it will be more confortable and smooth than the single clutch sequentials, and it will also facilitate faster lap times at the track by diverting less concetration from the driver than a manual.

    So why won't I personally get it?... because it takes away part of the pleasure of the driving experience of sportcars for me. Bypassing the shifting is diluting the experience, makes it less challenging, less driver intervention, less things going on in the whole process, less skill that is asked from you, detatches you from a very important part of the car, etc. And what are sportcars cars all about? to some like me it boils down ultimately to "driving" and "fun and pleasure at the wheel" even more than fractions of a second at the track or in a 0-60. I won't jeopardize or trade off a bit of the driving experience for a fraction of better performance. If they invent an electronic mechanism that will steer the car for you around the track with the skill of shummi would you I that too?

    The only time when I happily trade performance or driving feel/experience is when safety is involved such as ABS, PSM, heavier chasis if better crash safety, AWD in some cases, etc.

    But I see it as a GREAT option for people who have stop and go commutes everyday and can't really take advantages of the manual enough to outweight the confort of the DSG, for people who simply don't like, can't use well or never bothered with manual shift, for guys who's wife will also drive it but can't drive a manual, for people with back realated injuries, for people who want the car exclusively for performance, etc. So its a matter of needs and personal situation, the best thing is to be able to choose so I hope it comes out soon for those that want it.

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    i have SMG2 on my M3, and it is a brilliant system,

    fun to drive if one wants involvement, run into traffic on the motorway and slot it into auto, and it becomes nearly seamless, except witout the torque converter loss of a traditional slushbox.

    if the DSG is smoother, but doesnt lose and of the 'soul' of the gearshifting experience, it should be great

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    I'll stay with the manual (similar reasons as Carlos), if they still offer one after a few years

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    at first i was a skeptic too, in regards to fancy technology taking away from the experience, drive and involvement of a sports car. i read everywhere of how F1 gearboxes shaved tenths of seconds off timings. important of course, if your on the track or drag racing from stoplight to stoplight. but i was very surprised how much emotion and fun you can have with these systems as well.

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    I didn't know aisin was developing a DSG type tranny.

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I'll stay with the manual (similar reasons as Carlos), if they still offer one after a few years



    Rest assured Grant, they will, there will always be a demand for it so they will always offer it, it will be easier to see a front engined 911 than a solely auto box 911 . Remember Europe is part of Porsche's and other manufacturer's market, and over here flicking a paddle is not involving or fun (for other yes, to each his own) but not having a manual is reason enough for not buying a sportcar and going to the competition, so they will all offer manuals, especially since its not that big of a deal to do so anyway. Only certain specific models may get solely a sequential gearbox with no manual gearbox such a special editions, etc. Also sequentials are much superior than slush-boxes in sportcars but when it stops being a novelty (it still is relatively recent for the sportcar mass market) a lot of drivers after finnally owning and getting used to the sequentials will return to the manual for its feel and involvement and sequentials will be left for replacing current slush-boxes in current sportcars IMO.

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    Although 360CS, Enzo and M5 have set interesting precedents for F1 only and no tradtl manual option....

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    Yes, but the M5 is a sportsedan, the more "sedan they get, the easier it is to by-pass the manual (look at Audi and Mercs) but the next M3 will still have a manual option I bet and so will the other future sportier BMW models.
    In the case of real sportcars, Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari, etc the main models always have manual option, and only special models may have only sequential, like the Enzo, Stradale, etc.

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    The fact that I couldn't get on the 997S is what drove me to get a F360 instead. I really miss the 2 back seats of the 911 but the paddles are on the Ferrari are just magic. On a track, it's so much nicer to never have to take your hands of the wheel! In the street, it's more debatable whether one should get it or not...
    JM

    Dumb question? Isn't a manual almost an anachronism?

    Okay, guys who insist on the standard tranny over the sequential gear box, are they just holding onto tradition longer?

    I mean you can't win races anymore without paddle shifting, right?

    So "real" reace cars will no longer have manual trannys, so wouldn't it follow that "real" sports cars will also have paddles?

    seems like a stick is almost an anachronism.

    In my M3 with SMG, I have no feelings of loss for a manual. The thrill of lightning quick shifts _more_ than makes up for the "loss" of me feeling "connected" to the car.

    I don't even think "connected" is a meaningful word as it's used here.

    Re: Dumb question? Isn't a manual almost an anachronism?

    A DSG will be in my future, and... all my cars have been stick, but, w/ DSG the reason to have a manual is no longer true. The only reason for a clutch and a stick is that 100 years ago there was no other way to connect an engine to the wheels - and today, indeed, a manual is an anachronism. Later the slushbox came, but it was inneficient and slugish (even though on P-cars the latest TipS, people tell me, is fast and quite efficient). The DSG solves the problem efficiently and with superior performance.

    Re: Dumb question? Isn't a manual almost an anachronism?

    I'm going for the DSG on my 997 Turbo. The 996 Turbo clutch is so overboosted and engages so high that it's not that much " fun " anyway , compared to the GT3 clutch set up, which I like a lot. Last time I drove my friend's GT3, I almost put my foot through the floor stepping on the Turbo clutch afterwards !

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    OMG, you should read the manual vs. SMG threads (all 10,000 of them) on the m5board.com!!!

    Re: Dumb question? Isn't a manual almost an anachronism?

    Let me put it another way. You reach a Y junction with your sportcar, both ways take you to your destination but to the left is a brand new ultra smooth completely straight highway, and to the right is the old winding mountain road with all types of curves, declines and uphills, and constant variations.
    Which road do you take with you sportcar to your destination?
    The highway is quicker like the auto tranny, its and more confortable like the auto. The winding mountain road is older, needs more concentration, its more hard work, demands more skill from you, there are more things going on... like a manual. Does that clear why some people preffer the manual in a sportcar that is used for "pleasure" not solely transportation even though its less "effective"? If I was driving a sedan to and reached the junction I would take the highway but in my 911 I'd take the winding road any day, thats what its for, for me. Nothing to do with tradition. I ride 1000cc sportbikes but a 600cc sportouring bike is more confortable to drive, safer to drive, easier to drive and in many instances its just as fast in the streets, then why do some people preffer the overkill 1000cc sporbike? because the experience is not the same.

    I understand that driving and streets can be very different things in different places. If I were in Orlando for example, were everywere you go its four lanes of straight and flat roads full of SUVs and heavy sedans driving like a herd at the same limit and blocking all the lanes, then I'd probably choose a DSG, but over in my neck of the woods, I'm fortunate enough that a manual is superior.

    A friend of mine just bought an M3, he tried the SMG-II, he said its fantastic, shifts are very quick, fun to play with the paddles, but thats it, after a while its like a playstation driving game, you get bored of it and driving is not as involved, not as challenging, and not connected to the car as than with a manual nor is it faster in street spirited driving in the end. So he got the M3 manual. But thats a personal opinion, others love the SMG-II and never get tired of it and enjoy it.

    Its just a matter of personal preference. I'm not one of those that says sportcars have to be manuals, no, it depends on the person, both have their advantages. Thank god we can choose

    Re: Dumb question? Isn't a manual almost an anachronism?

    Quote:
    ADias said:true. The only reason for a clutch and a stick is that 100 years ago there was no other way to connect an engine to the wheels - and today, indeed, a manual is an anachronism.


    50 years from now, when the cars will have autopilot as an option, and you'll be able to just sit and be driven, will you consider the manual driving an anachronism? After all, there is no other way today to drive a car..

    Maybe the clutch is an anachronism, but being able to control the engine independently from the transmission gives you an extra level of control and freedom

    Re: Dumb question? Isn't a manual almost an anachronism?

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Maybe the clutch is an anachronism, but being able to control the engine independently from the transmission gives you an extra level of control and freedom



    well said!

    Re: Dumb question? Isn't a manual almost an anachronism?

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:true. The only reason for a clutch and a stick is that 100 years ago there was no other way to connect an engine to the wheels - and today, indeed, a manual is an anachronism.


    50 years from now, when the cars will have autopilot as an option, and you'll be able to just sit and be driven, will you consider the manual driving an anachronism? After all, there is no other way today to drive a car..



    Touché...

    There's the same but different brain power involved.

    I'm a total amateur but have had manuals and sports cars all my life, so, just by sheer amount of time spent driving with them, I _do_ know what people are talking about when they say "connected to the car and the road" with a manual.

    After having the SMG in my BMW for a couple of years I find that same connection to the road when I want to get frisky. I mean knowing when the hit the paddles when to brake, when to upshift, it's like a higher power thinking though and I'm able to enjoy another level of the driving fast experience.

    It's not a mindless video game thing by any means. The car does what you tell it to do (lightning fast and rev-matched) and after a while you understand how the software will react to your input and you can get even more out of it.

    It's a "higher order" one-touch make-it-so type of interface and less monkey-arm-leg jamming thing.

    my $.02

    Re: There's the same but different brain power involved.

    Quote:
    MaxErnst said:
    It's not a mindless video game thing by any means. The car does what you tell it to do (lightning fast and rev-matched) and after a while you understand how the software will react to your input and you can get even more out of it.

    It's a "higher order" one-touch make-it-so type of interface and less monkey-arm-leg jamming thing.

    my $.02




    My thinking too.

    Re: There's the same but different brain power involved.

    the SMG2 in my M3 rocks,

    beautiful transition between manual/automatic modes. on the higher modes it shifts so fast it grinds the gears. brilliant device, and a great bridge between manuals and autos.

    but i wouldn't want it to replace manuals all together.

    Re: There's the same but different brain power involved.

    i drove an smg2 for an entire year in my former m3 ,all i can say is that it was a really fabulous experience,i loved it!

    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:


    So why won't I personally get it?... because it takes away part of the pleasure of the driving experience of sportcars for me. Bypassing the shifting is diluting the experience, makes it less challenging, less driver intervention, less things going on in the whole process, less skill that is asked from you, detatches you from a very important part of the car, etc. And what are sportcars cars all about? to some like me it boils down ultimately to "driving" and "fun and pleasure at the wheel" even more than fractions of a second at the track or in a 0-60. I won't jeopardize or trade off a bit of the driving experience for a fraction of better performance.






    I've been thinking about what you say here, Carlos, and I agree now more than I did a few hours ago.

    I think maybe the paddles have more to do with "luxury performance" than , what..., "regular" performance?"

    Like on a long drive you want comfort and not having to jerk around with that clutch and shifter.

    BUT when you want to burn up some road the paddles are a really fabulous way to apply power to the road fast.

    THAT luxurious combination is good.

    Plus maybe there's this other more serene level where you can put your brain power into , the brain power which is left over from not having to pay attention to the foot on the gas, the foot on the clutch, the eye on the tach, it's like you can see the road and what's happening to the car more with this extra brain power. There's a heightened awareness if you want it.

    But I will gladly defer to the opinions of you guys with the track experience since I haven't learned to drive on a track (except one weekend in a BMW course).




    Re: Paddle shifting in 07. Would you buy?

    You are right, paddles are definitively faster on track, if just only for the fact that it requieres less concentration from the brain and the driver can employ more in steering, braking, etc. and so improving his overall driving, like you describe. I even heard that given a powerfull enough car like the 996TT, a lot of people would be faster around track already on a Tiptronic auto than a manual, and the Tip is no were as good as what a double-clucth sequential would be.

     
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