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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    I assume you believe I do not know what I am talking about?Smiley

    So after the appropriate break in period I take my new 991GT3 to a local track for a fun day. As I am doing my first lap and revving the car to 8500 rpm's, due to a software malfunction the DFI fails and the car breaks down. It is towed from the track to my dealer. Will Porsche cover the repair? Smiley What do you think US courts would say?Smiley

    My prediction would be Porsche would cover the repairs without hesitation. It is all about reasonableness and dealer relationships. Again, don't get too hung up on warranty language. The language is there for Porsche to have an out should there be evidence of abuse while tracking. Without the disclaimer, Porsche is essentially insuring against the mechanical breakdown of the car under circumstances beyond the limits of the car. That would be stupid on their part.Smiley

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Not at all.  My first remark was generic.  I used your post because it was short and addressed the issues quite well.  If all posts were qualitatively on par with yours, it would be great!

    Most of us on this forum, I believe, are experienced, mature drivers, with some kind of passion and the financial means to back it up.  However, one must not be blinded by this passion to the point of erecting Porsche (or any other make for that matter) to deity, a trend I have perceived from time to time on the forum.

    The warranty question is related to this point above in so far as we ought to keep our consumer instincts alert.  The greater the passion, the easier it is for us to be taken for a ride and made to swallow risks and costs which ought not to be borne by the customer.

    This said, I find that US buyers are faring better than their (continental) European equivalents.  US prices are lower than in Europe.  UK prices are also more favorable than on the continent, not to mention warranty conditions (3 years vs 2 years).  Some US customers also know how to fight: the lawsuit against the first 930 turbo which made Porsche to pull the car out of the US market (unheard of in Europe), suits regarding Carrera GTs and certainly many others which are not publicized.

    Going back to your example, I do not know how the case would fare before US courts.  In the US, local state laws have to be taken into consideration, so there are many variables.  What we can note is that customers are better off in the US that in Europe thanks to more favorable rules of evidence and to discovery (mediocre at best in continental Europe).  In addition, there is always the specter of a class action in the US. … although regarding GT3s the class would be quite small!  Downside of the elite!  Smiley

    This forum is probably not the right place to build an advocacy group regarding customer warranty claims.  Yet, is it not appropriate to share information and experience about warranty issues and how they were handled?  This is why I suggested a specific topic on the forum to address these points, if it does not already exist.

    I know for a fact that, in Europe at least, the manufacturer fights warranty claims and the customer must persevere to hope to achieve something.  I have always bought my Porsches new, but each of them has had its problems (electrical, body, interior), some minor, others more substantial.  Not all of them were taken care of or completely taken care of by the manufacturer.

    When I did my review of the Owners’ manual yesterday to draft my post, I was surprised that, on a subject as important as the warranty disclaimer, it was at times poorly written, not specific enough and ambiguous.

    Therefore, on the impact of track use on the warranty, who know what the outcome would be?  Technically, the documentation is such that Porsche has a way out.  However, for commercial considerations, will they fight?  I do not know.  I would be very surprised if they resisted mending a breakdown of some part even if it can be related to track use, if this track use was not racing, if track use was respectful of the car as any reasonable person ought to be in the first place, and if the car subject to due (i.e., more frequent than in case of road use only) maintenance.  I do not think they would win the fight in such circumstances as track use of the car is so prominently put forward in their communication.

    In the end, it boils down to trust in the brand and distribution.  Porsche is successful certainly in great part because people (like me) trust it to deliver excellent products and stand behind them.

    A side note regarding the breaking-in period, since you mention the break in in your post.  It is interesting to note that the US manuals contain recommendations on the breaking-in, but not the European manuals.  It is related to the above?

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I do not disagree with what you wrote. 

    Bottom line is establish a good relationship with your dealer and don't expect Porsche to honor a warranty when there is evidence the car exceeded its reasonable limits. FWIW, I am aware of Porsche dealerships sponsoring track events and encourage membership in local Porsche clubs which organize "drivers education" sessions at a track.

    FWIW, I don't recall Ferrari having similar language in their warranty. However, not many Ferrari owners track their cars.

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    I attending a Porsche function over a year ago and t/w a 997GT3 owner and his wife. They were discussing a trip they took from San Diego to LA and back. The wife was complaining about the harshness of the ride and said both of them had a headache ride that far in the car.

    I understand that it is a performance car but if it cannot be used comfortably for daily use I may be making a mistake. I know with the 997.2TT it was fine to drive but once it went into sport mode the car became much stiffer and had a harsher ride. That is fine for short duration but to use it regularly would not be a fun car to drive on streets. I assume that the GT3 with the sport button does the same though maybe not as comfortable which I can live with. I just don't want a bouncy ride feeling every imperfection on the road.

    Its way too rough for you, get a Case of tylenol pm and a cadillac


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    You may be right but I will not know until I own it.Smiley

    The Cadillac would be a great car if I lived in NZ.Smiley


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Just thought I would post this interesting comment (Re: RSR) from an interveiw with Hartmut Kristen (head of Porsche Motorsport):

    “To a certain degree, the car is more complicated than the 911 GT1 98,” he says when asked about the 911’s most recent Le Mans win. “But you know, with the 911 GT1, we had more freedom from the regulations. With the GTE car you have to stick much closer to the production car and when you look at the performance that you can get from a car like that it’s not that far away from what you could get 15 years ago with the GT1 car. So that overall shows the performance development that you see in GT cars and that you see with the 911. This is definitely very impressive.” - Daily Sports Car -


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Spyderidol:

    Just thought I would post this interesting comment (Re: RSR) from an interveiw with Hartmut Kristen (head of Porsche Motorsport):

    “To a certain degree, the car is more complicated than the 911 GT1 98,” he says when asked about the 911’s most recent Le Mans win. “But you know, with the 911 GT1, we had more freedom from the regulations. With the GTE car you have to stick much closer to the production car and when you look at the performance that you can get from a car like that it’s not that far away from what you could get 15 years ago with the GT1 car. So that overall shows the performance development that you see in GT cars and that you see with the 911. This is definitely very impressive.” - Daily Sports Car -

    Hi Spyderidol,

    Thanks...I wanted to come back to you anyway..its now official that the 991 RSR will use the 997 RSR engine. Fine with that..and I hope they both win in its class this year in Le Mans.

    However, the fact that the new racing engine is not in the RSR is a "disillusion for me"...I expected this to happen...but I still dont get it what Porsche is doing there..


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    savvy:
    Spyderidol:
    The Cup car has also undergone (and is still undergoing) extensive testing. The Cup car has many parts that are the same as the road version of the car (as many as the previous 997 based Cup car had in common with its 997 road car cousin).


    Come on, cut the BS. What Cup parts are identical to road car? See, this is more of the inch-deep/mile-wide kind of comment that has no basis in fact. Porsche marketing has you guys so brainwashed it is pathetic. Name me any specific functional parts (non-cosmetic) that are the same part number between 2010+ Cup and GT3? Here, I will throw you a bone, one part, brake caliper.

    I have always admired the effort you've put into your cars and their modification and certainly respect your opinion, but I believe that, in this case, you try to make a point for the sake of it. I guess you are fully aware that some parts have different requirements in terms of safety, technology and homologation and therefore are different. and this accounts for both sides, racers as well as regular customers that drive the car on the street would not be happy with a solution that tries to cover both bases. Given your past experience, I am very sure that you are aware of it.

    That is not to say that there are some issues that would need correction, such as the CL wheel hubs, but show me any production car in significant numbers that (successfully) drives in various race classes with minor modifications that is more related to its production version.

    By the way, I never understood why you didn't go the direct route and purchased a Cup car but chose to modify the existing 3.8 to such an extent.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GTlover:

    However, the fact that the new racing engine is not in the RSR is a "disillusion for me"...I expected this to happen...but I still dont get it what Porsche is doing there..

    Maybe it is very simple... engineering ressources. I doubt that any serious racer at Porsche would want to use the old engine if they could employ the new one which comes with some serious advantages (weight savings, fuel efficiency). 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    ...and, I suppose, reliability (especially at Le Mans). There must be an awful amount of testing to be done on the new engine before offering it to clients.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Ferdie:
    GTlover:

    However, the fact that the new racing engine is not in the RSR is a "disillusion for me"...I expected this to happen...but I still dont get it what Porsche is doing there..

    Maybe it is very simple... engineering ressources. I doubt that any serious racer at Porsche would want to use the old engine if they could employ the new one which comes with some serious advantages (weight savings, fuel efficiency). 

    Isn't it just a simple question of timing?  The base engine for the RSR is that of the 991 GT3, which will not be delivered to the first customers until late 2013. Wouldn't that rule out homologation for use in the 2013 racing season, enforcing the use of the "old" engine until next year?    Smiley


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    fritz


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Yes, this is also an issue (although) I'm sure Porsche could have got a waiver if they really wanted to.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    From the NY auto show. WSJ interviews the President of Porsche NA.

    http://live.wsj.com/video/porsche-ce...E-33D223FE4D7E

    He claims 10% of the 911's sold in US in 2014 will be GT3's.

    FWIW, after viewing the 991 Turbo, I have no doubt I made the right decision to buy the GT3.  It has so much more flare and Porsche elegance. 


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    fritz:
    Ferdie:
    GTlover:

    However, the fact that the new racing engine is not in the RSR is a "disillusion for me"...I expected this to happen...but I still dont get it what Porsche is doing there..

    Maybe it is very simple... engineering ressources. I doubt that any serious racer at Porsche would want to use the old engine if they could employ the new one which comes with some serious advantages (weight savings, fuel efficiency). 

    Isn't it just a simple question of timing?  The base engine for the RSR is that of the 991 GT3, which will not be delivered to the first customers until late 2013. Wouldn't that rule out homologation for use in the 2013 racing season, enforcing the use of the "old" engine until next year?    Smiley

    good point..I would/could agree to your all your arguments execpt one: in modern development cycles, you cannot change engine fundamentals so easily in a short time..supplier depedence, contracts etc..so what Im trying to say: Porsche had years to get all this ready..and now they are missing 1 year..? They have done many great things in the past..and for the first time the couldnt develop a new engine in time - which is supposed to be used in racing - its main purpose etc (as said before..its lighter)...this is what I cannot believe..


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    What do you guys think, are we getting manual in GT3 RS? I already heard that PDK is 100% planned for GT2 & GT2RS.


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    All my automotive & motorcycle renders in full resolution: www.milannoartworks.deviantart.com
    My renders are free for using & sharing, as long as my credits are untouched.

    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GTlover:
    fritz:
    Ferdie:
    GTlover:

    However, the fact that the new racing engine is not in the RSR is a "disillusion for me"...I expected this to happen...but I still dont get it what Porsche is doing there..

    Maybe it is very simple... engineering ressources. I doubt that any serious racer at Porsche would want to use the old engine if they could employ the new one which comes with some serious advantages (weight savings, fuel efficiency). 

    Isn't it just a simple question of timing?  The base engine for the RSR is that of the 991 GT3, which will not be delivered to the first customers until late 2013. Wouldn't that rule out homologation for use in the 2013 racing season, enforcing the use of the "old" engine until next year?    Smiley

    good point..I would/could agree to your all your arguments execpt one: in modern development cycles, you cannot change engine fundamentals so easily in a short time..supplier depedence, contracts etc..so what Im trying to say: Porsche had years to get all this ready..and now they are missing 1 year..? They have done many great things in the past..and for the first time the couldnt develop a new engine in time - which is supposed to be used in racing - its main purpose etc (as said before..its lighter)...this is what I cannot believe..

    I am very familiar with "modern development cycles" and their consequences, which is exactly why I think that what I suggested is so plausible. The development and market introduction timing of the GT3 is dependant on those of the 991 base model, and could not simply have been moved forward by a year just to enable the GT3's engine to be adapted and used in the  RSR in 2013. 
    The fact hat this scenario looks less than ideal in terms of long term planning might be explained by the rumour we heard after the takeover by VW that a decision had been made to delay the 991's introduction, which would have had undesired consequences all along the 911 range, including the racing derivatives. 
    But this is all pure speculation.


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    fritz


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Milanno:

    What do you guys think, are we getting manual in GT3 RS? I already heard that PDK is 100% planned for GT2 & GT2RS.

    Nothing to ''think'' about. Already confirmed by Porsche - NO manual gearbox for GT3RS. 

    Find the article on Autocar.co.uk.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Can anyone tell me this (pardon for asking a second time) - what is the speed of the new GT3 in each gear?

    Given the high RPM I would be curious how this 9K redline translates into speed for each gear.  Key acceleration figures like 0-60mph, 0-200kph etc are impacted by where shift points lie (less so now with the PDK, I understand).

    I have looked all over the web and can't seem to find the specs for this.  Thanks in advance.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Milanno:

    What do you guys think, are we getting manual in GT3 RS? I already heard that PDK is 100% planned for GT2 & GT2RS.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Porsche has already announced that the GT3 RS will have PDK (already mentioned further up – plse see my post of March 21, 2013).   Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Porsche Cayman GT3 under consideration says Andreas Preuninger...

    (28 March 2013)

    The chief engineer of the all-new 991-generation Porsche 911 GT3 has confirmed that producing a hardcore, GT3-style version of the mid-engined Cayman is “under discussion”.
     
    Speaking at the official public reveal of the 911 GT3, Andreas Preuninger asked rhetorically “[with Cayman] can we emulate the success of the GT3?"
     
    “Maybe, I don’t see why not...”
     
    Preuninger confessed that testing has been conducted for a more track-focused, hardcore Cayman model but reinforced that a final decision had not yet been made.
     
    When pushed further about the likelihood of it appearing, however, the engineering boss smiled and said that “I like mid-engined cars..."
     
    “Nothing more needs to be said.”
     
    It would appear almost a certainty that Porsche will introduce a more expensive version of the Cayman, which currently tops out in road-based Cayman S PDK guise. While the car could be badged GTS – that moniker is currently reserved for 911 models late in their life cycle, and the Panamera and Cayenne – that nameplate would suggest a road-biased Cayman model.
     
    How far up the GT chain Porsche would go is unclear – whether it would choose GT2, GT3, or GT3 RS for the Cayman, and whether it would produce a breed of high-priced flagship variants.
     
    With the 911 GT3 now available with a PDK transmission only, the Cayman may exist as an opportunity to re-capture GT loyalists who value simplicity and do-it-yourself transmission shifting...
     

    Porsche Cayman GT3 under consideration -- Article Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    If the new mid engine car is the size of a Cayman but with a much more powerful engine I believe it will fail. Its foot print needs to be much larger to attract buyers willing to pay $150,000 and up for the car. Recognizing with size comes weight, it is a small price to pay to give the car road presence other than being a Cayman.


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Why so surprised??!! Cayman R rings the bell?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Porsche Cars North America on the New 911 GT3...

    Porsche-991-GT3_WSJ-PCNA-video.jpg

    "Detlev von Platen, president and CEO of Porsche Cars North America, talks to the Wall Street Journal at the 2013 New York International Auto Show about the forthcoming Porsche 911 GT3, the limited edition..."

    Porsche Cars North America on the New 911 GT3 -- Video Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    dxpetrov:

    Why so surprised??!! Cayman R rings the bell?

    Cayman R was more in the lines of a 997GTS and has nothing to do with a GT3 (same engine and tranny as regular Cayman, no aerokit, not track focused, etc), if this Cayman GT is built it will be much more radical departure from the Cayman model range.

    I personally don't see it happening, the motorsport section will want to build it but the pencil pushing bean counters won't allow it IMO, which is unfortunate.

    But if they do build it, pricing would be its key as nick points out, because if its really a GT3 version, the engine, suspension, S-PDK, etc will raise the price significantly over the other Cayman versions and if its too close to the GT3, it will flop, since "most" people would go for a GT3 since it carries all the image both from it being a 911 and also from the pedigree the GT3 has aquired over the years. And being based on a Cayman, even though it will handle incredibly, it won't have the "exclusiveness" appeal for the poseurs to justify the pricetag for them.


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Carlos from Spain:

    Cayman R was more in the lines of a 997GTS and has nothing to do with a GT3 (same engine and tranny as regular Cayman, no aerokit, not track focused, etc), if this Cayman GT is built it will be much more radical departure from the Cayman model range.

    I personally don't see it happening, the motorsport section will want to build it but the pencil pushing bean counters won't allow it IMO, which is unfortunate.

    But if they do build it, pricing would be its key as nick points out, because if its really a GT3 version, the engine, suspension, S-PDK, etc will raise the price significantly over the other Cayman versions and if its too close to the GT3, it will flop, since "most" people would go for a GT3 since it carries all the image both from it being a 911 and also from the pedigree the GT3 has aquired over the years. And being based on a Cayman, even though it will handle incredibly, it won't have the "exclusiveness" appeal for the poseurs to justify the price tag for them.

    Hey Carlos -- I think that you may be pleasantly surprised when they unveil the full Cayman model range...

    For example, you will recall that historically Audi, as a policy, would only build one RS model at any point in time.

    Given the popularity of RS models, Audi development chief Wolfgang Dürheimer has confirmed expansion plans -- with the range of future RS models to include RS3, RS4, RS5, RS6, RS7, TT RS, RS Q3, etc.

    The senior management team at Porsche have apparently acknowledged that the new Cayman range needs to have a genuine "halo" model -- so let's hope Andreas Preuninger is given the green light...

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    As a matter of fact this is a photoshop I did ... 8 years ago! angry

     

    Cayman-GT3.jpg


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Porsche Cars North America on the New 911 GT3... (HD version)

    "Detlev von Platen, president and CEO of Porsche Cars North America, talks to the Wall Street Journal at the 2013 New York International Auto Show about the forthcoming Porsche 911 GT3, the limited edition..."

    Porsche Cars North America on the New 911 GT3 -- Video Link (HD)

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    From the NY auto show. WSJ interviews the President of Porsche NA.

    http://live.wsj.com/video/porsche-ce...E-33D223FE4D7E

    He claims 10% of the 911's sold in US in 2014 will be GT3's.

    FWIW, after viewing the 991 Turbo, I have no doubt I made the right decision to buy the GT3.  It has so much more flare and Porsche elegance. 


    --

    ++++++++++++++++++++

    "10% of the 911's sold in US in 2014 will be GT3's":  On this one, Detlev is out of his mind!  Will be a fraction of that.

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Video of Porsche sport car director for US on the GT3. Some interesting facts.

    http://vimeo.com/62978196


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    Video of Porsche sport car director for US on the GT3. Some interesting facts.

    http://vimeo.com/62978196

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Thanks.  Notice how he EMPHASIZES the daily use aspect to the car. That is why they probably are predicting 10% of all 2014 911 sales in US will be GT3's.kiss


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