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    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I read the same version. However, I was surprised with his time of 7.59 for the 599. Maybe, it is not the type of car WR is accustomed to driving around the Ring.


    By that you mean huge overweight luxury touring car?

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Nick, I don't think that it was a record attempt - just some "normal" testing during the so-called Industry Days.
    WR recently said in another interview: I'm only putting my helmet on if I'm aiming at a laptime < 8 min.
    Do you really believe WR doesn't know how to drive a Ferrari ? (or any other car for that matter)

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Nick, I don't think that it was a record attempt - just some "normal" testing during the so-called Industry Days.
    WR recently said in another interview: I'm only putting my helmet on if I'm aiming at a laptime < 8 min.
    Do you really believe WR doesn't know how to drive a Ferrari ? (or any other car for that matter)



    When compared to a Porsche, other cars (particularly front end) would pose a greater challenge for him. My belief has always been performance is related to familiarity of the venue and product. To believe he would as good in something unfamiliar to him compared to something he is very familiar is not credible or logical.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I read the same version. However, I was surprised with his time of 7.59 for the 599. Maybe, it is not the type of car WR is accustomed to driving around the Ring.


    By that you mean huge overweight luxury touring car?



    Grant call it what you want, but if the 7.47 time is correct, it is faster than the 997GT3RS (7.48) around the Ring. If you want to compare acceleration, it is no contest. The RS would be miles behind.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Grant call it what you want, but if the 7.47 time is correct, it is faster than the 997GT3RS (7.48) around the Ring. If you want to compare acceleration, it is no contest. The RS would be miles behind.


    A Veyron and a Nissan GT-R may also be faster than an RS, but I assure you they are not nearly as fun to drive (and no I am not the guy who puts performance numbers above all else)

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    When compared to a Porsche, other cars (particularly front end) would pose a greater challenge for him.



    LoL - did you know that he did win the World Rallye championship with an Italian front end car ?

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I read the same version. However, I was surprised with his time of 7.59 for the 599. Maybe, it is not the type of car WR is accustomed to driving around the Ring.

    I have seen 7.47 for the 599 but not sure who posted it.



    HvS of SportAuto did a 7.47. Thus, WR should be at least as quick as HvS...

    P.S.: A Porsche test driver told me that Porsche test drivers did 7.42 in the 599.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    When compared to a Porsche, other cars (particularly front end) would pose a greater challenge for him.



    LoL - did you know that he did win the World Rallye championship with an Italian front end car ?



    No kidding!

    Nick, do you even know who WR is? anybody who reads you might be led to believe you would be so clueless to think that WR is just a test driver who's experience is limited to Porsches ... when that is only a minuscule and late part of his amazing career and wealth of experience. I suggest you read up on him first and them you will see how after what he has driven, on what surfaces, under what circumstances and conditions, and how he drove them... driving a front engined street car on his backyard (Nring) is not going to be a problem or something new, that is like saying that a go-kart is going to pose a challenge to an F1 driver...

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:


    P.S.: A Porsche test driver told me that Porsche test drivers did 7.42 in the 599.






    7:42 compared to Hvs time of 7:47 and WR of 7:59, HvS and WR sound like they are past their prime.

    The lap of 7:42 should have been achieved by HvS or WR, after all they are supposed to be the ring masters.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    When compared to a Porsche, other cars (particularly front end) would pose a greater challenge for him.



    LoL - did you know that he did win the World Rallye championship with an Italian front end car ?



    No kidding!

    Nick, do you even know who WR is? anybody who reads you might be led to believe you would be so clueless to think that WR is just a test driver who's experience is limited to Porsches ... when that is only a minuscule and late part of his amazing career and wealth of experience. I suggest you read up on him first and them you will see how after what he has driven, on what surfaces, under what circumstances and conditions, and how he drove them... driving a front engined street car on his backyard (Nring) is not going to be a problem or something new, that is like saying that a go-kart is going to pose a challenge to an F1 driver...



    Carlos I am very familiar with WR. Because he drove rally cars YEARS AGO does not make him the top driver of front engine cars today. He spends all his time in rear engine cars. To say that he WAS good in dirt/uneven pavement circuits in front ehgine cars makes him an expert in today's front engine cars is think narrowly and illogically.

    Put WR in a Porsche driving the Ring and there is nobody better. Don't try to extrapolate that fact to performance driving in other type of cars.

    Show me one record he holds involving other cars on the Ring other than Porsche, NADA.

    Answer this question and we can put this argument to rest. Who would be faster around the Ring in a Porsche; MS or WR? Be careful how you answer.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    nberry said: Because he drove rally cars YEARS AGO does not make him the top driver of front engine cars today. He spends all his time in rear engine cars.


    Not true, Nick! Walter has spend much time lately on the Ring in the new Panamera prototypes (not to mention Cayennes, in case those count too)...

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos I am very familiar with WR. Because he drove rally cars YEARS AGO does not make him the top driver of front engine cars today. He spends all his time in rear engine cars. To say that he WAS good in dirt/uneven pavement circuits in front ehgine cars makes him an expert in today's front engine cars is think narrowly and illogically.

    Put WR in a Porsche driving the Ring and there is nobody better. Don't try to extrapolate that fact to performance driving in other type of cars.

    Show me one record he holds involving other cars on the Ring other than Porsche, NADA.



    So now you need a record to be able to drive a front-engined street car fast? and on a track you know inside and out like few people on the planet do? don't make me laugh.

    That almost sounds as narrow thining and illogical as saying that it would be any type challenge for someone like WR to drive a front-engine car and on the Ring. That pretty much closed the argument a while back already.

    Shows me that you are not familiar with WR, nor his achivements and abilities up until present day... oh wait, after being a legend and still actively working on developing high-performance cars like the CGT, he now forgot how to drive a car and all that experience disappeared, and did so selectively because he forgot how to drive only front engined street cars (known to be the hardest cars to drive to in the world)

    Quote:
    Answer this question and we can put this argument to rest. Who would be faster around the Ring in a Porsche; MS or WR? Be careful how you answer.



    Simple like may things in life, the answer is, it depends. As to being careful with the answer, I wouldn't have to, its not like you would now the answer, or would you claim to do so? its a stupid question that makes no point.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    nberry said: Because he drove rally cars YEARS AGO does not make him the top driver of front engine cars today. He spends all his time in rear engine cars.


    Not true, Nick! Walter has spend much time lately on the Ring in the new Panamera prototypes (not to mention Cayennes, in case those count too)...



    I hope Porsche doesn't hear Nick, otherwise they might fire WR as developer and test driver for the Panamera

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    IMHO - Walters experience at the Ring is his greatest asset and what makes him so quick - there. The type of car he drives makes less of a difference, around THAT track he will be quicker in any equal car against the best drivers.

    It's like a golf pro playing at his home course except of all the tracks I can think of the Ring is the one where experience is the biggest factor by far - given it's complexity.

    Match him against MS at the Ferrrari home test track, in the same 599, and he would not be passing MS! (but maybe Hamilton)

    P.S. I bet MS went to the boys at the factory and had a few extra HP added so this would not happen again! No FIA race stewards on the street or at the Ring! I hope WR is watching out for him next time.

    Lastly, what are the odds that the day Porsche is testing the 599 MS shows up to 'race' WR? It seems impossible unless Ferrari sent him there.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    IMHO - Walters experience at the Ring is his greatest asset and what makes him so quick - there. The type of car he drives makes less of a difference, around THAT track he will be quicker in any equal car against the best drivers.

    It's like a golf pro playing at his home course except of all the tracks I can think of the Ring is the one where experience is the biggest factor by far - given it's complexity.

    Match him against MS at the Ferrrari home test track, in the same 599, and he would not be passing MS! (but maybe Hamilton)

    P.S. I bet MS went to the boys at the factory and had a few extra HP added so this would not happen again! No FIA race stewards on the street or at the Ring! I hope WR is watching out for him next time.

    Lastly, what are the odds that the day Porsche is testing the 599 MS shows up to 'race' WR? It seems impossible unless Ferrari sent him there.



    Bingo. You know performance driving.

    Undoubtedly, WR would be faster in a Porsche around the Ring in a Porsche. He knows the car, the track and the surroundings. All of which contributed to the better performance.

    Now put WR in an F1 car and the result would be different and I don't believe anyone would disagree.

    The answer makes the point that though you may be skilled in one type of driving does not necessarily prove your best in all. But of course Carlos you knew that and were wise not to answer in order to avoid being "hoisted by your own petard" (Hamlet).

    Finally Carlos, point me to a front engine car that WR drove at the Ring which has the fastest time for that car.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    A good driver understands weight transfer, basic physics, and tire grip. Front engined cars, mid engined, rear engined all follow the same principles.

    Anyway, I love this old video of Walter doing the pedal dance in the lethal Audi Quattro of ancient days...

    Makes flappy paddle gearboxes seem sooooooo clinical and boring in comparison

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts29KKhKXds

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    that video is mad...takes a special skill to drive those monsters...

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Because he drove rally cars YEARS AGO does not make him the top driver of front engine cars today. He spends all his time in rear engine cars. To say that he WAS good in dirt/uneven pavement circuits in front ehgine cars makes him an expert in today's front engine cars is think narrowly and illogically.



    That's the biggest bullsh*it I have ever heard from you! The performance on the level of Röhrl or Schumacher is determined by talent, skill and knowledge. Röhrl certainly has the benefit of knowledge regarding the Nordschleife and I actually don't give a sh.. wether he passed Schumacher or not. The only disadvantage he has gained over the years are... exactly the years. Reactions are surely not on par with the ones of a much younger person, therefore there'd be faster drivers in a CarreraGT or, as you suggested, an F1 car. In fact, Sebastien Loeb, four-time consecutive WRC champion if you'd not know, tested the `06 Renault F1 car recently. According to his comment, the braking and transversal forces on the neck are one of the most impressin on that car, demanding some adaption to really feel comfortable in such a nimble car. Kovalainen, in return, posted an almost equal time in Loeb's WRC car. Does this make him the better driver? The differences amongst those drivers are marginal if you put them into the very top end of racing cars. A sportscar, even more a GT, will not cause a difference of several seconds amongst these people. I'd predict, whichever professional andsuccessful driver of present and past is placed into a modern car will post times that are of negligible difference. Röhrl's talent, as well in vehicle development, has been widely regarded even prior to his occupation at Porsche.

    With all necessary respect, do you really believe driving up and down in front of Starbucks qualifies you to comment? I wouldn't mind explaining this subject to anybody being seriously interested but I somewhat doubt that in your case!

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to...

    Quote:
    nberry said: Finally Carlos, point me to a front engine car that WR drove at the Ring which has the fastest time for that car.



    Nick, show me a fastest time by Michael Schumacher in the ring with a front engine car? does this mean he can't drive one? only those with records are qualified? what about those that haven't even tried for records but do laps after laps for development?

    You have made a statement and that is that a front engined car (which he has driven, raced, and help develop) could pose a challenge for somwone like WR and out of all places in the ring were he plays with advantage. That is not only a bold statement on your part but also something that you wouldn't have the knoledge to comment on.

    Also you seem to forget that front vs rear engine is only a small part of the equation of a car's dinamics, there is weight-bias, tranny, RWD-FWD-AWD, engine type, tires, LSD's, suspension types, chasis setup, kerb weight, and a long long list of ect that make up the whole equation and to separate sportcars by engine placement as too different entities is rather simplistic to say the least. Furthermore a driver of the likes of WR, MS, etc only need a few laps to learn a track or a car and away they go. Thats what separates the men from the boys.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    " Edited by Ferdie (Fri Dec 21 2007 02:03 PM) "

    Hehe, would be interesting to see the pre-edited version
    Guys - I guess this discussion is completely pointless.
    Why ? Because Nick simply has to criticise WR - finally WR is part of the dark world of Zuffenhausen, simple as that

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..


    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    " Edited by Ferdie (Fri Dec 21 2007 02:03 PM) "

    Hehe, would be interesting to see the pre-edited version
    Guys - I guess this discussion is completely pointless.
    Why ? Because Nick simply has to criticise WR - finally WR is part of the dark world of Zuffenhausen, simple as that



    Not so. He is a legend and rightfully so. But for some reason Europeans want to enshrined him as the permanent god of motorsports. Give him any car and he will outdrive anyone else. Poppycock!

    He is old having spent his last several years developing and driving for one car manufacturer with a very unique configured car. Put him in a Porsche he will beat most. Beyond that you are thinking with your hearts.

    Your right the argument is pointless. Europeans tend to hold on to the past a lot longer than North Americans. Not that it is all bad.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Well I have heared the story from a very good source and it is all true. Fact is the old man who only drives P cars now took one of the fantastic F cars and humiliated a seven time world champion in his "own" car. Granted the track is challenging but Schumi would never use that excuse...

    Think what you want but if you sit next to WR trust me Nick you will either faint or puke...

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Not so. He is a legend and rightfully so. But for some reason Europeans want to enshrined him as the permanent god of motorsports. Give him any car and he will outdrive anyone else. Poppycock!



    generalizations about europeans with a touch of the straw-man rhetorical fallacy...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    He is old having spent his last several years developing and driving for one car manufacturer with a very unique configured car. Put him in a Porsche he will beat most. Beyond that you are thinking with your hearts.




    now making judgements about scenarios you are not quialified or knowledgeable enough about the matter to make...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Your right the argument is pointless. Europeans tend to hold on to the past a lot longer than North Americans. Not that it is all bad.



    more generalisations about europeans but now with an ending touch of sarcasm...


    Great contribution Nick. And you wonder why members are provoked by your posts, call you troll, lash back, etc?

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Carlos, I know you agree with the disgruntled few. That I cannot change. Nor can I change what I know and feel.

    If WR is as good as you all say, why isn't racing for a living?

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, I know you agree with the disgruntled few. That I cannot change. Nor can I change what I know and feel.

    If WR is as good as you all say, why isn't racing for a living?



    You are full of crap. Your arguments about Porsche are often true, but this is regular bullsh*t. So, what makes you qualified to judge the performance of a driver of WR's caliber? Give me a break...

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, I know you agree with the disgruntled few. That I cannot change. Nor can I change what I know and feel.

    If WR is as good as you all say, why isn't racing for a living?


    Well he did race for a while and I beleive he was pretty good at it Why risk your life racing when you can make a lot of money testing Porsche's? Nick this is the stupidest argument I've ever seen you start and thats saying something!

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, I know you agree with the disgruntled few. That I cannot change. Nor can I change what I know and feel.

    If WR is as good as you all say, why isn't racing for a living?


    Well he did race for a while and I beleive he was pretty good at it Why risk your life racing when you can make a lot of money testing Porsche's? Nick this is the stupidest argument I've ever seen you start and thats saying something!



    Trip, reread what you wrote and think about this.

    Kimi makes over $50 million a year for about 15 races a year. Alfonso probably more. MS made over 80 million a year. How much do you think old WR makes a year testing Porsche's?

    No great driver quits racing for fear of injury. They quit because the cannot be competitive.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    trip said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, I know you agree with the disgruntled few. That I cannot change. Nor can I change what I know and feel.

    If WR is as good as you all say, why isn't racing for a living?


    Well he did race for a while and I beleive he was pretty good at it Why risk your life racing when you can make a lot of money testing Porsche's? Nick this is the stupidest argument I've ever seen you start and thats saying something!



    Trip, reread what you wrote and think about this.

    Kimi makes over $50 million a year for about 15 races a year. Alfonso probably more. MS made over 80 million a year. How much do you think old WR makes a year testing Porsche's?

    No great driver quits racing for fear of injury. They quit because the cannot be competitive.



    Nick, the really great ones quit racing because they have nothing left to prove.

    Especially not to themselves.

    Re: "Rally legend Walter Röhrl has just added to..

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