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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Next gen hybrid (Lambo)? If it sounds OK, why not? I wouldn't get a turbo charged car though, not as a weekend fun car. Unless I could have several different cars at the same time.

    My wife wants the 992 Turbo S (I actually think she is going to go for the 992 Carrera GTS instead because it is cheaper) and this would be a nice addition to the Performante. devil


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHOuenVXPig

     

    Nice electric "Defender" indecision



    Re: Tesla Roadster

    What?!?  No partial differential equations?   

    Overall, a fairly simplistic yet effective analysis and video highlighting the issues of poor energy densities associated with BEVs when compared with hydro-carbon fueled vehicles.  This distinction is often overlooked by the strident BEV enthusiast as well as policy promulgators.  

    Besides greater energy densities, liquid fuels are infinitely more portable than current electrical storage systems and one need look no further than what happened at various Supercharger locations in California this past Thanksgiving weekend when Tesla needed to roll out additional charging units.  https://thegrayzone.com/2019/01/08/new-documents-reveal-a-covert-british-military-intelligence-smear-machine-meddling-in-american-politics/ 

    Returning to lithium-ion energy densities increasing around 2% annually, it will take over 40 years for that battery pack to have the equivalent energy density of a liter of gasoline or diesel fuel.  Of course, there are physical limitations on battery chemistries that limit energy densities.  Inherent in the increases in energy densities is the risks of storing large amounts of energy within small confines.  This is already problematic with the number of EV-related battery fires and the reason why Porsche and Audi battery packs weigh around 750 kilos; it takes an incredible amount of armor plating to protect the battery pack as well as the added weight of environmental support system to keep the chemical reactions in cells at a productive temperature.  

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    This is all good and well but no model 3 has caught fire. Range is fine. Super chargers can fill it up at mad rate of 1000 miles + per hour but home charging is 98% of the charging being done - much now by solar is gen.  There is nothing to stop the revolution. Resistance is futile but cute to watch.   EV Tech will see huge increases with substantial improvements in the very near future - but it is already exceeding the promise of ice. 40 dog years At best . Filling up with gas is already something really odd and old fashioned for many of us. Right now. 
    Fears of battery problems and the like, while well intentioned, are mostly based on lack of understanding the tech. By comparison gasoline is in many ways far more dangerous.  Capital will quickly be diverted to build out the tech and that 40 years will shrink by a lot. 
    And yes. Porsche and Audi battery packs are heavy. Their motors are also not very efficient. Time will tell if their engineering is reliable in the long term but all these attempts help shape the industry and drive progress. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    For a diesel truck, range is 1000 miles per 5 minutes or so. Even gasoline cars are like 500 miles per 5 minutes...

    Just saying.

    And battery EV is just one of the many future transportation options, happens to be Tesla's only business and VAG's only bet.

    Hydrogen fuel cell EV is still in it's infancy, just like battery powered one was, but for mass conversion it's so much easier to implement. Doesn't take much to convert existing gas pumps to hydrogen pumps, and there is no extra drain on the highly stressed already electric grid, fill up time is on par with gasoline also. Oh, and there is no need to use child labour to mine lithium or 3rd dictators dictating the terms to the rare earth minerals needed for lithium batteries. And hydrogen is the most abundant substance in the universe, it will never runs out..........

    Funny how these future propulsion alternatives are playing out just like the BetaMax vs VHS. Could battery EV be the BetaMax of this generation? Perhaps. Japanese are one of the most clever manufacturers, and none of the Japanese car makers are committing 100% to battery EV. 

    Some might argue they are late to the boat, but could it be that they knew something beforehand? Toyota is the first to introduce hybrid cars, they KNOW electric drivetrain, it would have been so much easier for them to go straight to battery powered EV, but they don't. 

    The next few decades will be fun to watch the blood bath in the car business.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    For a diesel truck, range is 1000 miles per 5 minutes or so. Even gasoline cars are like 500 miles per 5 minutes...

    Just saying.

    And battery EV is just one of the many future transportation options, happens to be Tesla's only business and VAG's only bet.

    Hydrogen fuel cell EV is still in it's infancy, just like battery powered one was, but for mass conversion it's so much easier to implement. Doesn't take much to convert existing gas pumps to hydrogen pumps, and there is no extra drain on the highly stressed already electric grid, fill up time is on par with gasoline also. Oh, and there is no need to use child labour to mine lithium or 3rd dictators dictating the terms to the rare earth minerals needed for lithium batteries. And hydrogen is the most abundant substance in the universe, it will never runs out..........

    Funny how these future propulsion alternatives are playing out just like the BetaMax vs VHS. Could battery EV be the BetaMax of this generation? Perhaps. Japanese are one of the most clever manufacturers, and none of the Japanese car makers are committing 100% to battery EV. 

    Some might argue they are late to the boat, but could it be that they knew something beforehand? Toyota is the first to introduce hybrid cars, they KNOW electric drivetrain, it would have been so much easier for them to go straight to battery powered EV, but they don't. 

    The next few decades will be fun to watch the blood bath in the car business.

     

    Smiley Smiley It could be "fun", true but buying a car is a huge risk nowadays, especially when buying a regular car (not a high end sportscar) or an EV. Met a guy at my Lambo dealer yesterday, he just bought a new Urus but he came in a Tesla X and switches to a Taycan Turbo S next year. I asked him if he bought the Taycan and he said "no way, I am leasing it, even if it is friggin' expensive to do so". He doesn't want to worry about the value of the car in a couple of years. This guy has a small car collection, so money isn't really an issue for him. 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    You can’t actually compare as filling time with battery charging. While superchargers are fast and will continue to improve the reality is that you never have to go to another gas station.  Most charging is done at home and a couple hours at night gives you a full tank each day when you leave. This saves an amazing amount of time not to mention it costs a whole bunch less. Then there is hydrogen.  Either way the motor will be electric.  Gasoline is done.  It only serves cars but electricity serves everything else not to mention the impact of gas to the environment. Electric power can come from any number of sources. Most likely new gen nuclear. 
    I get that charging at home is simpler than if living in an apartment but let’s face facts. Even people in apartments have electricity and there is no way that apartment dwellers will not be able to plug in eventually all over the place. There are more plugs than gas stations.  The next few years will be amazing to behold. As a car guy I’m totally excited. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:

    You can’t actually compare as filling time with battery charging. While superchargers are fast and will continue to improve the reality is that you never have to go to another gas station.  Most charging is done at home and a couple hours at night gives you a full tank each day when you leave. This saves an amazing amount of time not to mention it costs a whole bunch less. Then there is hydrogen.  Either way the motor will be electric.  Gasoline is done.  It only serves cars but electricity serves everything else not to mention the impact of gas to the environment. Electric power can come from any number of sources. Most likely new gen nuclear. 
    I get that charging at home is simpler than if living in an apartment but let’s face facts. Even people in apartments have electricity and there is no way that apartment dwellers will not be able to plug in eventually all over the place. There are more plugs than gas stations.  The next few years will be amazing to behold. As a car guy I’m totally excited. 

    Yeah, try to charge a Taycan Turbo S at your wall outlet at home...2.3 kW per hour, this is going to be fun. Smiley

    Or a Tesla S/X P100D...do the math. A couple of hours? You're kidding, right?!

    Also, you don't seem to be aware of the implications to the electricity grid, especially in the US where infrastructure in some regions hasn't been upgraded since the 50s or 60s. Smiley

    Hydrogen? Yes, this would be indeed a good solution but I blame Tesla for basically annihilating a hydrogen fuel future. I doubt that hydrogen will have a breakthrough but from a usability and practicality point of view, it would be great.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Even when I can charge the e-Tron at home at night, I still drive it like a normal car, i.e. I only plug it in when it's near empty, which is like every 3 weeks. 

    The Panamera however gets charged up almost every night as I used it like a EV car in the city daily, so even the limited range of the hybrid is already more than enough for me. I get the bonus of that superb engine when I am out of the city in the hybrid smiley Man, what a beast of a car.


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    Even when I can charge the e-Tron at home at night, I still drive it like a normal car, i.e. I only plug it in when it's near empty, which is like every 3 weeks. 

    The Panamera however gets charged up almost every night as I used it like a EV car in the city daily, so even the limited range of the hybrid is already more than enough for me. I get the bonus of that superb engine when I am out of the city in the hybrid smiley Man, what a beast of a car.

    Hybrid... Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    This doesn't happen to a hybrid...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7755753/Chaos-California-Tesla-drivers-stranded-hours-half-mile-long-line-charge.html


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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    Leawood911:

    You can’t actually compare as filling time with battery charging. While superchargers are fast and will continue to improve the reality is that you never have to go to another gas station.  Most charging is done at home and a couple hours at night gives you a full tank each day when you leave. This saves an amazing amount of time not to mention it costs a whole bunch less. Then there is hydrogen.  Either way the motor will be electric.  Gasoline is done.  It only serves cars but electricity serves everything else not to mention the impact of gas to the environment. Electric power can come from any number of sources. Most likely new gen nuclear. 
    I get that charging at home is simpler than if living in an apartment but let’s face facts. Even people in apartments have electricity and there is no way that apartment dwellers will not be able to plug in eventually all over the place. There are more plugs than gas stations.  The next few years will be amazing to behold. As a car guy I’m totally excited. 

    Yeah, try to charge a Taycan Turbo S at your wall outlet at home...2.3 kW per hour, this is going to be fun. Smiley

    Or a Tesla S/X P100D...do the math. A couple of hours? You're kidding, right?!

    Also, you don't seem to be aware of the implications to the electricity grid, especially in the US where infrastructure in some regions hasn't been upgraded since the 50s or 60s. Smiley

    Hydrogen? Yes, this would be indeed a good solution but I blame Tesla for basically annihilating a hydrogen fuel future. I doubt that hydrogen will have a breakthrough but from a usability and practicality point of view, it would be great.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     

    RC. My home charger adds 48 miles per hour to the battery. 220 volt 50 amp. My commute to work is 8 miles total if I come home for lunch so at best I only need a ten minute charge per day at home. At any rate if I sleep for six hours I can totally top of an empty battery at home.   Once you understand this you will also understand why gasoline is dead in the US for most of us. 
    Thinking that Tesla owners will use 110 volt outlets is perhaps comforting for ICE fans but not really a thing. 
    Your notion of our neighborhoods not being able to supply reliable 100amp power anytime we want it is just silly. This is not Nigeria. 
    Hydrogen would be a good source to produce electricity to power a battery in home but installing that into a car is foolish.  You would not put a refinery into a car. Just think about it. Putting hydrogen into a car would be declaring battery advancement dead in the water. Not ready to assume that.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood, one word, weight.

    Battery EV needs to carry the heavy battery, hydrogen fuel cell don't. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The future of battery tech and issues like weight and charging looks bright. It is this which drives the chances of hydrogen. The market will rule as always. Not perfect of course which explains the gasoline detour we have suffered. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:

    The future of battery tech and issues like weight and charging looks bright. It is this which drives the chances of hydrogen. The market will rule as always. Not perfect of course which explains the gasoline detour we have suffered. 

    Of course, it was only a century of misguided, market anomalies and stupid consumers.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    As long as we continue to have excess capacity on the electrical grid during the overnight hours, then adding a bunch of BEV cars charging overnight is actually saving an unnecessary waste from continuing. yes

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Gladstone:

    As long as we continue to have excess capacity on the electrical grid during the overnight hours, then adding a bunch of BEV cars charging overnight is actually saving an unnecessary waste from continuing. yes

     

    Maybe in the US but things look different in Germany. With nuclear power shut down, our electrical grid relies a lot on imports and on very cold nights, the electrical grid over here works at it's max capacity.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    Gladstone:

    As long as we continue to have excess capacity on the electrical grid during the overnight hours, then adding a bunch of BEV cars charging overnight is actually saving an unnecessary waste from continuing. yes

     

    Maybe in the US but things look different in Germany. With nuclear power shut down, our electrical grid relies a lot on imports and on very cold nights, the electrical grid over here works at it's max capacity.

    Speaking of misguided decisions 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:

    The future of battery tech and issues like weight and charging looks bright. It is this which drives the chances of hydrogen. The market will rule as always. Not perfect of course which explains the gasoline detour we have suffered. 

    Of course, it was only a century of misguided, market anomalies and stupid consumers.  

    Or maybe the power of money behind big oil?  Follow the money. You sound as though this is not possible. Are you inferring that electricity to power cars is going backwards or that gasoline should continue the way it is?  I’m trying to understand your comment.  Sometimes people don’t do the most logical thing. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:
    RC:
    Gladstone:

    As long as we continue to have excess capacity on the electrical grid during the overnight hours, then adding a bunch of BEV cars charging overnight is actually saving an unnecessary waste from continuing. yes

     

    Maybe in the US but things look different in Germany. With nuclear power shut down, our electrical grid relies a lot on imports and on very cold nights, the electrical grid over here works at it's max capacity.

    Speaking of misguided decisions 

    I won't argue here, it was a pretty irrational decision based on the events in Fukushima. In retrospect, it may have been a good decision because it pushed alternative energy sources but in the end, this whole alternative energy concept for Germany kind of failed and we are in dangerous waters now, being dependent on neighbors and other countries like Russia and energy prices are going up. This is definitely no way to promote EVs in Germany but maybe there will be incentives, so EVs will get the opportunity to charge at a lower cost but I kind of doubt it.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    Leawood911:
    RC:
    Gladstone:

    As long as we continue to have excess capacity on the electrical grid during the overnight hours, then adding a bunch of BEV cars charging overnight is actually saving an unnecessary waste from continuing. yes

     

    Maybe in the US but things look different in Germany. With nuclear power shut down, our electrical grid relies a lot on imports and on very cold nights, the electrical grid over here works at it's max capacity.

    Speaking of misguided decisions 

    I won't argue here, it was a pretty irrational decision based on the events in Fukushima. In retrospect, it may have been a good decision because it pushed alternative energy sources but in the end, this whole alternative energy concept for Germany kind of failed and we are in dangerous waters now, being dependent on neighbors and other countries like Russia and energy prices are going up. This is definitely no way to promote EVs in Germany but maybe there will be incentives, so EVs will get the opportunity to charge at a lower cost but I kind of doubt it.

    Perhaps the plan was to make you dependent on Russia all along.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I'm not too much into conspiracy theories, especially since Merkel and Putin certainly don't get along very well (especially after that dog incident, which caused a lot of diplomatic "turmoil" behind the curtains) but it really sucks. Germany imported in 2019 electricity/energy from France, Denmark and Switzerland (no kidding). In 2018, Germany actually exported more energy than it imported but this has changed.

    The last nuclear power stations in Germany will be shut down in 2022 and funny enough, with EVs on the rise, electricity consumption will certainly rise over the next couple of years.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:
    RC:
    Gladstone:

    As long as we continue to have excess capacity on the electrical grid during the overnight hours, then adding a bunch of BEV cars charging overnight is actually saving an unnecessary waste from continuing. yes

     

    Maybe in the US but things look different in Germany. With nuclear power shut down, our electrical grid relies a lot on imports and on very cold nights, the electrical grid over here works at it's max capacity.

    Speaking of misguided decisions 

    Yep Germany going off nuclear was just silly. Drive west of Dusseldorf and you will see open pit mines for brown coal which are like 5km long and the.n Endless smoke from the coal fuelled power stations . Hmm, not great progress at all....


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    It was a populist decisión made by weak politicians for their own short term gain after the Fukushima incident.

    In Spain we went a similar route in the last decade, populist socialist governments bet heavily in renewables when they are not even close yet to being cost effective and the electric bill for families has skyrocketed in the last years, while the big energy companies made a killing from it.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:

    The future of battery tech and issues like weight and charging looks bright. It is this which drives the chances of hydrogen. The market will rule as always. Not perfect of course which explains the gasoline detour we have suffered. 

    Of course, it was only a century of misguided, market anomalies and stupid consumers.  

    Or maybe the power of money behind big oil?  Follow the money. You sound as though this is not possible. Are you inferring that electricity to power cars is going backwards or that gasoline should continue the way it is?  I’m trying to understand your comment.  Sometimes people don’t do the most logical thing. 

     

    Last I checked there are still plenty of gas fired power plants around. Big Oil still wins. They don't care if cars are powered by gasoline or electricity, either way people are still paying them.

    With the decline of nuclear plants and the push back against coal fired ones, gas power plants are gaining importance.

    On a side note, I just realized my province, while producing 100% of it's power from hydro electric, and we are producing more than we needed, aren't actually powered 100% from our own clean electricity. It would seems our electric company EXPORTED most of our green electricity to states like California and IMPORT most of our electricity from coal plants in Wyoming, Nebraska, Montana etc. Smiley

     

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    It was a populist decisión made by weak politicians for their own short term gain after the Fukushima incident.

    In Spain we went a similar route in the last decade, populist socialist governments bet heavily in renewables when they are not even close yet to being cost effective and the electric bill for families has skyrocketed in the last years, while the big energy companies made a killing from it.

    In the New York City area where I live, the government is shutting down the nuclear power plant that provides 25% of New York City's electric power. They are planning to use renewal energy sources to replace this electric generating capacity. Our electric bills will increase substantially.


    --

    2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    bobr:
    Carlos from Spain:

    It was a populist decisión made by weak politicians for their own short term gain after the Fukushima incident.

    In Spain we went a similar route in the last decade, populist socialist governments bet heavily in renewables when they are not even close yet to being cost effective and the electric bill for families has skyrocketed in the last years, while the big energy companies made a killing from it.

    In the New York City area where I live, the government is shutting down the nuclear power plant that provides 25% of New York City's electric power. They are planning to use renewal energy sources to replace this electric generating capacity. Our electric bills will increase substantially.

     

    You mean they are cutting of the Hudson River to build a hydroelectric dam? Smiley


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    bobr:
    Carlos from Spain:

    It was a populist decisión made by weak politicians for their own short term gain after the Fukushima incident.

    In Spain we went a similar route in the last decade, populist socialist governments bet heavily in renewables when they are not even close yet to being cost effective and the electric bill for families has skyrocketed in the last years, while the big energy companies made a killing from it.

    In the New York City area where I live, the government is shutting down the nuclear power plant that provides 25% of New York City's electric power. They are planning to use renewal energy sources to replace this electric generating capacity. Our electric bills will increase substantially.

     

    You mean they are cutting of the Hudson River to build a hydroelectric dam? Smiley

    Hydroelectric facilities are seen as bad by the hardcore environmentalist.  Therefore, renewal/sustainable sources are wind and solar. The regulators hike utility rates so the utility companies and the environmentalists can crow about renewal sources reaching cost parity with other, more dirty, generating facilities.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    On a side note, I just realized my province, while producing 100% of it's power from hydro electric, and we are producing more than we needed, aren't actually powered 100% from our own clean electricity. It would seems our electric company EXPORTED most of our green electricity to states like California and IMPORT most of our electricity from coal plants in Wyoming, Nebraska, Montana etc. Smiley

    In a business, wouldn't that just be classed as a good arbitrage deal? Since almost certainly CA paid more for BC green megawatts than the midwest sells their dirtier megawatts for...


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    2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2019 Porsche 911 Turbo


     
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