Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 991 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    reginos:
    Gnil:

    Every person I know who is interested on a 991 TT is only looking at the Turbo S .

     

    The S models are a very clever marketing technique on behalf of PAG.  It should be taught in business schools.

    When the 996 Carrera came out there was just one engine of 300 HP and everybody was happy. Then with the 997, suddenly 325 HP was not adequate because the "S model" existed and everybody wanted 355 HP or even the X51 381 HP and they were willing to pay much extra for the top model. The entry model hardly sold relative to the S and Porsche cashed in on this strategy.

    The story is continued with the 997.2, 991 and now with the Turbo. You start to become interested for a car selling at 160.000 EUR and eventually you end up paying over 200.000 EUR, and you feel happy that you got a bargain too because it is an all inclusive price.

    It is not enough to make good products, but to know how to promote them and to make money. Well done Porsche kiss


    --

    "Form follows function"

    This... this is genius. Smiley

    Interestingly enough, I have a fascination with Porsche's base models [except the base Cayenne due to its lack of a proper Porsche engine; if I wanted a VW VR6, I'd spring for a VW]. I always find them more than adequate for real world driving, they're fun to work hard and extract the power from and they're not what I'd call short-changed when compared to their higher-output counterparts. If I were in the market for a 911 for example, I'd only look at a base Carrera without the need for an S, GT3 or Turbo. I can understand the allure and ego boost attached to having the more powerful model but for me, I'd rather just sit back and admire the brilliance of Porsche's marketing.

    rulesdontapply


    --

    2008 Porsche Boxster S PDE2
    2012 Porsche Cayenne S


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    Rossi:
    nberry:

    Why do you think Porsche opted to introduce both models at the same time? Could it be they wanted to gage the market as to which model attracted more customers and why? I don't believe 997TT owners decided to move up to the 997TTS. THat market segment involved a different buyer quite possibly Ferrari  McLaren and Lambo buyers.

    Now with both models offered at the same time Porsche will get some idea which model attracts the largest buyer segment. More power with bells and whistles or a basic no nonsense TT?


    I bet the S will outsell the standard Turbo by far! 9 out of 10 buyers will opt for the Turbo S.

    For me, this would make sense but my dealer for example has three Turbo orders but only one Turbo S order (me). I also followed a discussion on a German car forum where some of the people interested in ordering one, opted for the Turbo because they didn't want PCCB. I also think that these people still have a tuning of their Turbo in mind, which is going to be pretty difficult (if done properly).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    I cannot really add a lot, the most important issue is that the Turbo S should have been differentiated more, a special turbo, nice engine bay, some gimmicks you don't get on the regular Turbo, special interior options. Now it is just an option package. Similar with the 50 years celebration car: why not give it the X51-engine? Or at least symbolically add a different air-intake and give it 408 horsepower? If you make something special... make it special!

    What I would like to see is that you can tweak the 4WD system on the turbo. For example that you can choose that maximum 20% goes to the front wheels etc.

     


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    bws:

    What I would like to see is that you can tweak the 4WD system on the turbo. For example that you can choose that maximum 20% goes to the front wheels etc.

    Wouldn't this be potentially dangerous in inexperienced hands and Porsche ending up with legal issues following all sorts of accidents?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    Don't see the fundamental difference with switching off ESP, sports modes, changing the diff setting on an audi RS etcetera. So I suspect that legally there would be no problem, as long as there is a warning in the owners manual. 


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    bws:

    I cannot really add a lot, the most important issue is that the Turbo S should have been differentiated more, a special turbo, nice engine bay, some gimmicks you don't get on the regular Turbo, special interior options. Now it is just an option package. Similar with the 50 years celebration car: why not give it the X51-engine? Or at least symbolically add a different air-intake and give it 408 horsepower? If you make something special... make it special!

    What I would like to see is that you can tweak the 4WD system on the turbo. For example that you can choose that maximum 20% goes to the front wheels etc.

     

    What for? This doesn't really make sense, unless you want to participate at a rally event. Smiley

    I did professional rally racing and even I wouldn't want (or use) this function. So how many customers would want this? 1%? Less? Smiley

    I think that pre-defined setup settings for the PASM/PTM would make more sense, like different programs called "Race", "Sport", "Street", "Rain" and "Winter". This would make much more sense in my opinion. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    RC:
    bws:

    I cannot really add a lot, the most important issue is that the Turbo S should have been differentiated more, a special turbo, nice engine bay, some gimmicks you don't get on the regular Turbo, special interior options. Now it is just an option package. Similar with the 50 years celebration car: why not give it the X51-engine? Or at least symbolically add a different air-intake and give it 408 horsepower? If you make something special... make it special!

    What I would like to see is that you can tweak the 4WD system on the turbo. For example that you can choose that maximum 20% goes to the front wheels etc.

     

    What for? This doesn't really make sense, unless you want to participate at a rally event. Smiley

    I did professional rally racing and even I wouldn't want (or use) this function. So how many customers would want this? 1%? Less? Smiley

    I think that pre-defined setup settings for the PASM/PTM would make more sense, like different programs called "Race", "Sport", "Street", "Rain" and "Winter". This would make much more sense in my opinion. 

    I might have expressed myself unclear by mentioning a percentage, but such modes which influence the 4WD-system was exactly what I meant ;) 


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    RC:
    Rossi:
    nberry:

    Why do you think Porsche opted to introduce both models at the same time? Could it be they wanted to gage the market as to which model attracted more customers and why? I don't believe 997TT owners decided to move up to the 997TTS. THat market segment involved a different buyer quite possibly Ferrari  McLaren and Lambo buyers.

    Now with both models offered at the same time Porsche will get some idea which model attracts the largest buyer segment. More power with bells and whistles or a basic no nonsense TT?


    I bet the S will outsell the standard Turbo by far! 9 out of 10 buyers will opt for the Turbo S.

    For me, this would make sense but my dealer for example has three Turbo orders but only one Turbo S order (me). I also followed a discussion on a German car forum where some of the people interested in ordering one, opted for the Turbo because they didn't want PCCB.

    I have a feeling that it has to do more with price, than not wanting PCCB's.  Why would you not choose PCCB's over the standard brakes.  PCCB's have been the most reliable item on my un-reliable 997S.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    reginos:
    Gnil:

    Every person I know who is interested on a 991 TT is only looking at the Turbo S .

     

    The S models are a very clever marketing technique on behalf of PAG.  It should be taught in business schools.

    When the 996 Carrera came out there was just one engine of 300 HP and everybody was happy. Then with the 997, suddenly 325 HP was not adequate because the "S model" existed and everybody wanted 355 HP or even the X51 381 HP and they were willing to pay much extra for the top model. The entry model hardly sold relative to the S and Porsche cashed in on this strategy.

    The story is continued with the 997.2, 991 and now with the Turbo. You start to become interested for a car selling at 160.000 EUR and eventually you end up paying over 200.000 EUR, and you feel happy that you got a bargain too because it is an all inclusive price.

    It is not enough to make good products, but to know how to promote them and to make money. Well done Porsche kiss

    For this generation (991), yes. For previous generations (997/996/etc), waiting until the last couple years of the generation to introduce the Turbo S, was, IMHO, stupid.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    SoCal Alan:
     

    I have a feeling that it has to do more with price, than not wanting PCCB's.  Why would you not choose PCCB's over the standard brakes.  PCCB's have been the most reliable item on my un-reliable 997S.

    I think this is a mentality thing. Why pay for something you don't want/don't believe in? I also know a couple of Turbo drivers who drive quite normally on the Autobahn because they want to keep fuel consumption low. Smiley I mean c'mon, you don't hold back with such a car, especially if it is legal to drive fast but apparently I have a different mentality. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    I really liked my 997 turbo s cab Except for the weight.  3000 pounds like a 991 s, a scud, a strad are somewhat agile. At 3500 pounds its a junior hippo, and this car weighs more

    reduce weight to 3200

    get rid of pane exhaust tips

    increase power over 600

    delete fixed tail, have mobile air foil like a regular 991s

    make noise tunnel for exhaust a deleteable item. I like my turbo s quiet so the cops cant hear me drill it, and i use thr burmeister from malibu to beverly hill when i go to the office


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    it should be more customizable - people love in these days everything limited or "tailor-made" - I mean being able to for example  "delete weight" - maybe even going that far in ordering light doors (carbon) , hood , choose a titan exhaust (that would get u money the tuners currently get) , rear window in PC, various stage of tune in the engine -  - or being able to order classic options for a current model.

    For the turbo S I would want a option of massively less weight - shorter gearing option (PDK-Drag for 10k indecision)  with a top speed of 250 - but 0-200 in 8 Sec...


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    BjoernB:

    it should be more customizable - people love in these days everything limited or "tailor-made" - I mean being able to for example  "delete weight" - maybe even going that far in ordering light doors (carbon) , hood , choose a titan exhaust (that would get u money the tuners currently get) , rear window in PC, various stage of tune in the engine -  - or being able to order classic options for a current model.

    For the turbo S I would want a option of massively less weight - shorter gearing option (PDK-Drag for 10k indecision)  with a top speed of 250 - but 0-200 in 8 Sec...

    Shorter PDK gearing option? What about emissions? Smiley This won't happen.

    Less weight? I agree but I don't know how many people would order this stuff for lowering weight by 50-60 kg only. Weight isn't that important on the Turbo/Turbo S (well, I mean it in a sense that not every kg is important since Porsche could adapt the weight/power ratio by raising the power), I even ordered the 18-way sport seats plus (heaviest option) instead of the sport bucket seats (available end of this year) and...please don't judge me, I even ordered ventilated seats. It is really good in summers (if we get any Smiley) to walk out of the car without a "wet" back. The seat ventilation adds weight too, so I guess by choosing the 18-way seats and the seat ventilation, I added at least 25kg compared to the sport bucket seat option (which will btw. be available with heating too).

    Carbon doors or hood? Well...what about crash regulations? (pedestrian protection or side impact protection). The body of the 991 is already made of almost 50% aluminum, which is quite good for sports car with such an excellent rigidity. I am pretty sure that Porsche could reduce the base weight of the 991 Turbo/Turbo S by let's say 50kg but at what cost? The new 911 Turbo S is already almost 13% more expensive than the "old" one.

    Various engine tuning stages? Well...the next stage would be the...960 (or GT2/GT2RS). Smiley

    I understand what you mean but I think that Turbo/Turbo S customers want more power and don't care too much about saving 10kg here or there. I also would add some sort of GT or RS package as an option, which could include lighter rims, a different chassis setup, maybe cup tires or at least a tire choice (from the "available" of course), a sportier PDK setup, permanent(!) overboost, a louder exhaust and maybe larger intercoolers. This wouldn't cost Porsche too much (production/development cost) since they already worked with various options during development and they could sell it for 9k or so, this would be a no-brainer for Turbo S customers. Wanna add 20 horses more? Well...add another 5k. Smiley

    Yes, people want options but Porsche needs to be careful, so that customers at some point don't ask themselves: "Shouldn't this be standard on a car like the 911 Turbo S?". 

     

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    What I tried to say was basically a way to get a car more suited to the person's driving style - u want acceleration ? here you go ! u want comfort and wintercapability ? here is the set up ? u want a easy to drive track-car ? another option..... - as to the emissions - that is going into the "porsche pot" so no harm there


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    BjoernB:

    What I tried to say was basically a way to get a car more suited to the person's driving style - u want acceleration ? here you go ! u want comfort and wintercapability ? here is the set up ? u want a easy to drive track-car ? another option..... - as to the emissions - that is going into the "porsche pot" so no harm there

    I understood very well what you meant but I'm afraid Porsche is already too big and it would cost a fortune to adapt to every customer need. They need to make compromises and I'm afraid the customers too (to some point).

    Regarding emissions, Porsche is really under pressure here. Look at the Panamera engine downsizing strategy, not even sure if customers will accept it.

    Just imagine what happens if Europe is going to be ruled by coalitions of leftists and greens, then emissions will be a top priority in the EU parliament and especially smaller companies like Porsche would come (and already are) under huge pressure to lower fuel consumption. There is also a lot of pressure to change the fuel consumption certification process, so car manufacturers cannot use the well known "tricks" to keep their fuel consumption, on paper, low. Or do you really think that you can enjoy a 991 Turbo S at a fuel consumption of a combined 9.7 liters / 100 km only? Or can you really achieve 7.7 l / 100 km in this car? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    Lots of cars have carbon hood and doors, that shouldn't be a problem and should be starting to trickle down to normal cars anyways.

    The changes I'd like to see are: 1) many more colours (I'd like it to be like Ferrari, Aston etc. which have the back catalogue of colours available). 2) More interior colour options. 3) Shorter gearing. 7th should be the top speed gear. I don't need to go over 250-275 even on the fastest tracks. The speed gains everywhere else would more than make up for it. Sure you would lose a little on the gas mileage but not a lot in real world. 4) A CS version. Carbon doors, hood, roof, bumpers and front quarter panels. Light weight battery, less sound deadening, carbon buckets, thinner carpet and door panels, thinner glass, radio and AC delete options.

    Years ago we had a 1989 Carrera that came from the factory with a sunroof delete (very hard to get in North America at the time), no rear seat backs and “airport gears”. It only went about 125 mph but my god was it fast up to there! I still don’t know how the dealer managed to get it into the county as a new car. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    Mithras:

    Lots of cars have carbon hood and doors, that shouldn't be a problem and should be starting to trickle down to normal cars anyways.

    Depends on cars and their crash and pedestrian protection safety. Smiley

    The changes I'd like to see are: 1) many more colours (I'd like it to be like Ferrari, Aston etc. which have the back catalogue of colours available).

    You can get any color you want (color to sample option but it takes over 6 months to complete the "order" which is quite long...).

    2) More interior colour options.

    Same as color to sample, Exclusive department makes it happen but it prolongs your delivery time.

    3) Shorter gearing. 7th should be the top speed gear. I don't need to go over 250-275 even on the fastest tracks. The speed gains everywhere else would more than make up for it. Sure you would lose a little on the gas mileage but not a lot in real world.

    Not possible since Porsche is already a lot under pressure regarding future environmental laws.

    4) A CS version. Carbon doors, hood, roof, bumpers and front quarter panels. Light weight battery, less sound deadening, carbon buckets, thinner carpet and door panels, thinner glass, radio and AC delete options.

    This is called GT3 or GT3 RS. Not interesting for Turbo customers, look at the limited GT2 and GT2 RS sales figures.

    Years ago we had a 1989 Carrera that came from the factory with a sunroof delete (very hard to get in North America at the time), no rear seat backs and “airport gears”. It only went about 125 mph but my god was it fast up to there! I still don’t know how the dealer managed to get it into the county as a new car. 

    Again...not interesting for the typical Turbo customer.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    You asked what would I want... That's what I would want!

    Sure you can get almost any colour you want. And wait 6+ months, spend close to $20K extra for interior and exterior and have nothing to show for it when you re-sell (or have to take a bigger hit). I think a lot of potential buyers would like more choice and lower costs. On a Bentley or Aston, Ferrari, Rolls Royce etc. you have dozens of colours to choose from, often at no extra cost for most of them. Same goes for interior. The paint and leather isn’t more expensive in green instead of black… Plus Porsche has a wonderful back catalouge of paints.

    As for the lighter car, well there seems to be a lot of people here begging for one (same as a lot of people here and everywhere else I see/talk to) that would have liked a manual. You can call them 1% all you like but they are pretty vocal! I think it’s a bigger number than you are giving credit for.

    As for the lower gearing. I think you’re well and truly stuck in a Germany is the whole world mentality. It isn’t. In my province, if I get caught going 150kph on a highway I lose the car for 7 days, get a min $3,000 fine, probably lose insurance (or at least cheap insurance) for years. I simply don’t care how fast the top speed is. There is almost no track that I go to that has a straight where I would get much past 270kph. Lower gearing would make the car hugely faster in the real world. I also don’t care if I lose 1ltr/100km out of the deal. Make it an option and you probably don’t run afoul of the enviro police.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    Mithras:

    You asked what would I want... That's what I would want!

    I also asked to be "reasonable". Smiley I want a flying Turbo but I guess I don't have my pilot license yet. Smiley

    Sure you can get almost any colour you want. And wait 6+ months, spend close to $20K extra for interior and exterior and have nothing to show for it when you re-sell (or have to take a bigger hit). I think a lot of potential buyers would like more choice and lower costs. On a Bentley or Aston, Ferrari, Rolls Royce etc. you have dozens of colours to choose from, often at no extra cost for most of them. Same goes for interior. The paint and leather isn’t more expensive in green instead of black… Plus Porsche has a wonderful back catalouge of paints.

    From my experience, the competition asks a lot of money for almost every extra option and I do not consider Bentley, Aston Martin or Rolls Royce to be a direct competitor. 

    As for the lighter car, well there seems to be a lot of people here begging for one (same as a lot of people here and everywhere else I see/talk to) that would have liked a manual. You can call them 1% all you like but they are pretty vocal! I think it’s a bigger number than you are giving credit for.

    1%? Not important. I once had a chat with a guy at Porsche who was responsible for quality management. I made a serious complaint about throttle response on the Cayenne Turbo (955) and he told me that these complaints are up to 3% and this means they do not count. Period. Well...I don't say I am happy about this but 1% or 3%? Who cares?!

    As for the lower gearing. I think you’re well and truly stuck in a Germany is the whole world mentality. It isn’t.

    You don't seem to understand. This is not about Vmax but about environmental laws in the EU which are getting more and more complicated (and strict). Fuel consumption needs to be lowered, even if on paper only and this cannot happen with shorter gear ratios and not even manual anymore.

    In my province, if I get caught going 150kph on a highway I lose the car for 7 days, get a min $3,000 fine, probably lose insurance (or at least cheap insurance) for years. I simply don’t care how fast the top speed is.

    You'd be surprised that I do not care much about top speed either, it doesn't really matter for me if a car drives 320 or 310 kph or maybe 330. I do want the car to go at least 300 kph though since most drivers, even those who can, usually get afraid to drive faster than 270 or 280. Smiley

    There is almost no track that I go to that has a straight where I would get much past 270kph. Lower gearing would make the car hugely faster in the real world. I also don’t care if I lose 1ltr/100km out of the deal. Make it an option and you probably don’t run afoul of the enviro police.

    I do not get the 991 Turbo S for the track and I would be very surprised if anyone would actually do. This would be dumb. The right track car would be the GT3, much more fun than the Turbo S on the track and probably a bigger challenge too. Some nice driver ed events, yes, I can see them in a Turbo S but serious track racing? Not really.

    This is not about any "environmental" police (do you actually read the news?) but about laws and certification of new cars. It is getting more and more difficult for car manufacturers to achieve the required CO2 output/fuel consumption and if the certification process rules change (right now car manufacturers use certain "tricks" to achieve the "necessary" CO2 output), this can be a huge issue for manufacturers like Porsche. Don't underestimate this.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    why is a gearing to 250 for example producing more CO2 than a gearing for 310 ? Wouldn't that mean that cars with a high top speed produce lesser because of long gearing ? I don't think so....- at what speed is CO2 measured ? I would say there is very very little difference....


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    BjoernB:

    why is a gearing to 250 for example producing more CO2 than a gearing for 310 ? Wouldn't that mean that cars with a high top speed produce lesser because of long gearing ? I don't think so....- at what speed is CO2 measured ? I would say there is very very little difference....

    To give you an example: The 991 GT3 has an ECE fuel consumption (combined) of 12.4 l / 100 km. The 991 Turbo S only 9.7 l / 100 km. This is a huge difference for a car manufacturer and it may also explain why Porsche radically said good-bye to manual, I doubt that the performance argument is the only one. GT3 has a "real" driving 7th gear while the 991 Turbo S reaches the top speed in the 6th gear (7th gear is for fuel efficiency reasons only) as far as I understood.

    Also interesting: The new 991 GT3 does not fulfill the EU6 emissions certification, it is still EU5, while the Turbo S is EU6 already, despite the 85 additional horses.

    CO2 output on the GT3 is 289 g/km, while it is only 227 g/km for the Turbo S. See the difference? Huge.

    Interesting: After September 1st, 2015, no new car can be registered in Europe with a license plate without meeting EU6 certification. So if someone in Europe decides to get a GT3 now and he waits until after Sept 1st 2015 to register the car...bye bye registration. Very strict. Porsche has basically to change certification of the GT3 engine until Sept 1st 2015, otherwise they cannot sell the car anymore. Which is interesting because this could mean that there will be some sort of a facelift/engine update after or shortly before that date.

    The fact that the 991 Turbo S engine fulfills EU6 already, could actually mean that this engine will be around for a while.

    I am actually pretty curious how Ferrari, without the usage of turbos or hybrid technology, will meet the new EU6 standards and maybe even stricter environmental laws. Same of course applies to McLaren and others. Actually, I think it is almost impossible without using turbos and hybrids but maybe Ferrari surprises us. Smiley

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    No, I still don't understand. You put an extra gear in there for fuel efficiency and CO2. I'm fine with top speed being in 6th gear (6 are more than enough) and have a long long 7th. I would just like shorter gears 1 through 6. As it is both 6th and 7th are overdrives... The gap between 2nd and 3rd is massive right now and that has nothing to do with emissions or gas mileage. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    Mithras:

    No, I still don't understand. You put an extra gear in there for fuel efficiency and CO2. I'm fine with top speed being in 6th gear (6 are more than enough) and have a long long 7th. I would just like shorter gears 1 through 6. As it is both 6th and 7th are overdrives... The gap between 2nd and 3rd is massive right now and that has nothing to do with emissions or gas mileage. 

    So you basically want Porsche to make the cars slower? Smiley Does this make sense to you? Especially nowadays, when "family" cars like the new Audi RS6, the new M5 or the latest E63 have a top speed of 305 kph (over 190 mph)? The 991 Turbo S is in my opinion the perfect Autobahn car, the top speed is high enough to satisfy most customers and of course the somehow "limited" top speed (318 kph or 199 mph) has also advantages for Porsche since they do not have to spend more money for tires, aerodynamics, etc. development/production cost. Every additional kph/mph in that speed range creates issues regarding tires, aerodynamics, cooling, etc., so keeping the speed lower, actually saves development/production cost and of course leaves some "air" left for future improvements.

    Also look at McLaren for example: The MP4-12C is a very fast car with a top speed which will never be "needed" in most regions. So why doesn't McLaren provide a shorter gear ratio and thus a slower top speed? I'm no engineer but I guess there is more into it than meets the eye and according to engineers (not necessarily only Porsche) I've met and spoken to over the various years, adapting fuel consumption/CO2 values to new laws is a real pain in the ass. I take their word for it.

    Like I said before, I'm no engineer but things aren't that simple (anymore).

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    RC:


    I am actually pretty curious how Ferrari, without the usage of turbos or hybrid technology, will meet the new EU6 standards and maybe even stricter environmental laws. Same of course applies to McLaren and others. Actually, I think it is almost impossible without using turbos and hybrids but maybe Ferrari surprises us. Smiley

    I am not 100% sure, but limited production manufacturers do have to fully comply with these regulations. Depending on their output volumes they could even be totally exempt.

    I remember reading that the highest cut-off point is 10.000 units per year. One of the reasons I believe for Ferrari's self imposed production limit. If by producing a few thousand more you automatically have to invest to meet certain environmental rules, you can make more profit by producing less.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    I meant to write "do not have to fully comply with these regulations" frown


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    New Lamborghini Cabrera will have NA 5.2L V10 with more then 600ps and will fullfill EU6. It will be equiped with 7 speed DCT.


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    reginos:

    I meant to write "do not have to fully comply with these regulations" frown

    I got it, don't worry. Smiley

    I don't know, the EU6 standard is valid for all car manufacturers as far as I know. I am pretty sure that Ferrari is going to be able to fulfill EU6 in 2015 but what about EU7 or EU8 later on? If they don't want to use turbo engines or hybrid technology...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    KresoF1:

    New Lamborghini Cabrera will have NA 5.2L V10 with more then 600ps and will fullfill EU6. It will be equiped with 7 speed DCT.

    It would pretty stupid to put a car on the market in 2014 which doesn't fulfill the 2015 emissions laws. Smiley

    I didn't say it is impossible to fulfill EU6 with N/A engines, I just said it gets more and more difficult. I also think that at some point, Lamborghini will use a turbo charged and/or a hybrid technology for their cars, sports cars and SUV.

    I am very surprised to see the new GT3 fulfill EU5 only but maybe the certification process for EU5 wasn't ready yet and it will be re-certified along the production until 2015.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    RC:
    reginos:

    I meant to write "do not have to fully comply with these regulations" frown

    I got it, don't worry. Smiley

    I don't know, the EU6 standard is valid for all car manufacturers as far as I know. I am pretty sure that Ferrari is going to be able to fulfill EU6 in 2015 but what about EU7 or EU8 later on? If they don't want to use turbo engines or hybrid technology...

    This is from the European Commission website. It seems that there is leeway for small-volume manufacturers.

    Pools acting jointly

    Manufacturers can group together to form a pool which can act jointly in meeting the emissions target. In forming a pool, manufacturers must respect the rules of competition law and the information that they exchange should be limited to average specific emissions of CO2, their specific emissions targets, and their total number of vehicles registered.

    Targets for smaller manufacturers

    Independent manufacturers which sell fewer than 10,000 vehicles per year and which cannot or do not wish to join a pool can propose their own emissions reduction target which is subject to approval by the Commission. The Commission decides on the basis of a set of agreed criteria which include the manufacturer's emissions reduction potential.

    Manufacturers selling between 10,000 and 300,000 cars per year can apply for a fixed target of a 25% reduction from their 2007 average emissions.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New 991 Turbo/Turbo S - If you could change them...what would you want?

    I suppose Ferrari could join a pool with Fiat?  yes

    Ferrari should be happy that they aren't a German company. Over here, Porsche is already under pressure and they are lucky they do a good job by advertising their "green" technology as much as possible. I always wondered why their advertising over here has been so defensive, "innocent", calm and often concentrated on green technology and fuel consumption. Now I understand why. It would be a PR disaster for Porsche to advertise huge power and/or performance figures instead. Especially the 918 seems to have a good impact on their reputation, same goes to the Hybrid Panamera, even if it doesn't really seem to sell too well.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part I) Thread Closed 9/24/20 12:47 AM
    watt
    629526 2849
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/30/20 9:03 AM
    rhino
     
     
     
     
     
    389379 1279
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 7/4/21 12:06 PM
    nberry
    91487 1094
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 7/28/21 4:07 PM
    pgouveia
    49378 354
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    37369 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/19/20 6:12 PM
    Leawood911
    34878 380
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 7/30/21 10:05 AM
    Porker
    21569 464
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    5737 29
    Porsche Cayman GT4 5/4/21 4:46 PM
    Topspeed
    446350 3586
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 6/25/21 2:56 PM
    the-missile
    373545 3506
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 6/22/21 5:42 PM
    Topspeed
    373217 3917
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 4/28/21 12:26 PM
    W8MM
    335886 3252
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/8/20 7:51 PM
    DJM48
    312668 2646
    Porsche Tesla Roadster 9/23/20 8:22 PM
    bluelines
    278614 4279
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 7/20/21 3:10 PM
    Topspeed
    239261 1567
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    163587 1379
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/30/21 7:06 PM
    Topspeed
    149510 2838
    Others Alfa Romeo 4C 9/23/20 10:22 AM
    RCA
    139600 792
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    113238 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/30/21 4:07 PM
    WhoopsyM
    96581 735
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 7/5/21 4:30 PM
    BjoernB
    80014 1221
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    78566 209
    AMG AMG GT R 7/8/21 3:07 PM
    CGX car nut
    67294 824
    Lambo Aventador and SV 7/10/21 1:17 AM
    4trac
    67112 697
    Porsche 991 Speedster 9/3/20 4:29 PM
    Topspeed
    64215 878
    Porsche Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan 11/23/20 6:10 PM
    Topspeed
    46704 596
    Others Bugatti Chiron 7/22/21 6:55 PM
    Topspeed
    38412 480
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/24/21 6:30 PM
    Porker
    35205 531
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    35184 615
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    29965 394
    269 items found, displaying 1 to 30.