Feb 19, 2008 9:08:55 PM
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Ron (Houston)
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Feb 19, 2008 9:17:11 PM
- easy_rider911
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Ron (Houston)
Feb 20, 2008 12:55:17 AM
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Ron (Houston)
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- Reply to: Turbo Al
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
Funny, but somehow I somewhat hope that Pieech wins out.
I personally think if WW leaves Porsche he'd be leaving in grace and with glory while he can, becuase I don't think Porsche will be as profitable as it was at one point in particular during the .com era or few years after. Just my 2 cents.
Feb 20, 2008 1:11:53 AM
- Moogle
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Feb 20, 2008 6:14:19 AM
- Joost
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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
We'll see what happens.
Reasons to be happy to see WW leave:
Cayenne, Panamera, uselees "special editions", 911 not being king of sportscars anymore, too many facelifts, etc.
Reasons to be happy to see him stay:
Porsche might be kept alive as an "independant" car manufacturer.
I know I am taking some shortcuts with the above mentioned, but it's pretty much what I hold him responible for... As I saud, we'll wait and see!
-Joost-
Reasons to be happy to see WW leave:
Cayenne, Panamera, uselees "special editions", 911 not being king of sportscars anymore, too many facelifts, etc.
Reasons to be happy to see him stay:
Porsche might be kept alive as an "independant" car manufacturer.
I know I am taking some shortcuts with the above mentioned, but it's pretty much what I hold him responible for... As I saud, we'll wait and see!
-Joost-
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
As a Porsche owner and enthusiast for many years I credit Wiedeking for many important decisions. However IMO he has been handling the whole VW takeover scenario in an arrogant and clumpsy manner.His bitter confrontation and war of words with the VW workers' council is badly timed and premature. His harsh words scared off politicians who are siting with the many (work force) and trying to re-enact a milder version of the old VW law to protect them against unpopular strategies that WW indicated that will come. This was a big tactical mistake and Piech should pull his ear at least. This management style is too American and rightly or wrongly, cannot be applied in Europe 100% especially in Germany which has a tradition of equalitarianism and worker participation
Coming to cars, in the past Porsche was more engineering driven, true, but financially shaky. The present day mixture is ideal. The Carrera range is much more affordable in real prices than 20 years ago. The entry level cars are much purer than the 924s and 944s. If some people don't like the Panameras and the Cayennes they are not forced to buy them; they can enjoy their GT3s and their GT2s instead.
Coming to cars, in the past Porsche was more engineering driven, true, but financially shaky. The present day mixture is ideal. The Carrera range is much more affordable in real prices than 20 years ago. The entry level cars are much purer than the 924s and 944s. If some people don't like the Panameras and the Cayennes they are not forced to buy them; they can enjoy their GT3s and their GT2s instead.
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
I think he is history. Jigs up! He just got some fat paydays so guess what, it makes it easier to tell him goodbye. Maybe he can introduce cheap LED technology to Rolex for his next trick.
WW rode the sales wave from the dot coom, property boom and financial boom markets. Good for him. Yes he sold many little cars to inexperienced people who never drive fast. Big deal.
Porsches core value is from passion and racing. Without racing wins and without militant edgy aggressive dynamic feelings in the car... it is just another car. And that I think is what Peich is really concerned about, that Porsche risks becoming just another brand of vanilla on shelves full of vanillas.
In the meantime we get 911's that seem oddly underdeveloped,
and a mutant Tatra/Passat called Panamara to be the new ugly sister of the old ugly Cayenne.
We await the next generation 911. It better be ruthless and unbeatable or Porsches real joy will be seen only in history books. And please no more secretary or dead actor special editions.
WW rode the sales wave from the dot coom, property boom and financial boom markets. Good for him. Yes he sold many little cars to inexperienced people who never drive fast. Big deal.
Porsches core value is from passion and racing. Without racing wins and without militant edgy aggressive dynamic feelings in the car... it is just another car. And that I think is what Peich is really concerned about, that Porsche risks becoming just another brand of vanilla on shelves full of vanillas.
In the meantime we get 911's that seem oddly underdeveloped,
and a mutant Tatra/Passat called Panamara to be the new ugly sister of the old ugly Cayenne.
We await the next generation 911. It better be ruthless and unbeatable or Porsches real joy will be seen only in history books. And please no more secretary or dead actor special editions.
Feb 20, 2008 9:17:18 AM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Porsches core value is from passion and racing. Without racing wins and without militant edgy aggressive dynamic feelings in the car... it is just another car. And that I think is what Peich is really concerned about, that Porsche risks becoming just another brand of vanilla on shelves full of vanillas.
The rumors about an argument between Piech and Wiedeking are not new. There have been some press articles on the subject in the German press back in November:
http://www.n-tv.de/881081.html
However, the claimed argument ("pure speculation" as per PAG's spokesman) is not about Porsche's strategy, but about the future VW strategy. It has been reported that W.W. wants to eliminate competition/cannibalization between the brands (example: VW Golf vs. Audi A3), resize SEAT and Skoda to "regional brands" in order to strengthen VW as the core brand + eventually get rid of (financially) underperforming luxury cars
Obviously these ideas are not in line with what Piech did during his time as VW's CEO 
In theory the combination of a car guy (Piech) and a corporate/RoI focussed guy (W.W.) could be a dream team to turn VW into a better performing company, but maybe there is too much ego involved on both sides. Future will tell.
On a side note I'm sure Reitzle would love to get back into the autombile industry: now that Linde has sold his fork lift division while focussing on the boring industrial gas business he might miss products on wheels in his portfolio
Feb 20, 2008 9:39:42 AM
- reginos
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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Porsches core value is from passion and racing. Without racing wins and without militant edgy aggressive dynamic feelings in the car... it is just another car. And that I think is what Peich is really concerned about, that Porsche risks becoming just another brand of vanilla on shelves full of vanillas.
The rumors about an argument between Piech and Wiedeking are not new. There have been some press articles on the subject in the German press back in November:
http://www.n-tv.de/881081.html
However, the claimed argument ("pure speculation" as per PAG's spokesman) is not about Porsche's strategy, but about the future VW strategy. It has been reported that W.W. wants to eliminate competition/cannibalization between the brands (example: VW Golf vs. Audi A3), resize SEAT and Skoda to "regional brands" in order to strengthen VW as the core brand + eventually get rid of (financially) underperforming luxury cars
In theory the combination of a car guy (Piech) and a corporate/RoI focussed guy (W.W.) could be a dream team to turn VW into a better performing company, but maybe there is too much ego involved on both sides. Future will tell.
On a side note I'm sure Reitzle would love to get back into the autombile industry: now that Linde has sold his fork lift division while focussing on the boring industrial gas business he might miss products on wheels in his portfolio
So Porsche-Jeck WW's handling of the VW affair and the aggravation he caused to workers unions and politicians with his hasty statements is playing no role? You are in Deutschland so you know better, Please comment on this aspect too.
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Porsche Jeck, I dont recall WW creating anything for VW. Maybe he said yes to the stupid VW foot operated parking brake that is on the Cayenne? 
If the article Kampf der Giganten is true, WW will lose. Not to worry though, America and GM will welcome him! Here he can solve the Buick vs Pontiac and GMC vs Chevy crisis! :
I think in his heart WW's secret dreamcar is a Cadillac. Sometimes dreams come true!
If the article Kampf der Giganten is true, WW will lose. Not to worry though, America and GM will welcome him! Here he can solve the Buick vs Pontiac and GMC vs Chevy crisis!
:
I think in his heart WW's secret dreamcar is a Cadillac. Sometimes dreams come true!
Feb 20, 2008 11:19:40 AM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
reginos said:
So Porsche-Jeck WW's handling of the VW affair and the aggravation he caused to workers unions and politicians with his hasty statements is playing no role? You are in Deutschland so you know better, Please comment on this aspect too.
Yes, I'm in Germany but I only can refer to what is reported in the press and to what VW's/PAG's spokesmen are saying. It may be discussed controversially whether W.W.'s straight forward approach ("we have to slaughter sacred cows", attempt to reduce the power of VW's workers council/union influence etc.) is clever from a tactical point of view, but I'm sure all this has been done with the consent of the Piech/Porsche families. Given VW's history with massive influence of politicians and unions a re-calibration of the power balance is inevitable anyway after PAG becoming VW's biggest shareholder IMHO.
There are tons of speculations (Piech vs. W.W., Winterkorn vs. W.W.) right now. Hard to say what is the truth and what is a media created soap opera
Though it's not a rumor that PCNA's CEO Peter Schwarzenbauer just has been appointed as AUDI's Chief Sales Officer
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSL1942978620080219
Feb 20, 2008 11:29:54 AM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Porsche Jeck, I dont recall WW creating anything for VW.
Up to now that's true, but it's really to early to judge IMO - the stage hasn't been set yet (too much parameters are unclear yet: open issues re the rights of VW's workers council delegates in the SE's supervisory board, threat of new VW law etc.)
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
America and GM will welcome him! Here he can solve the Buick vs Pontiac and GMC vs Chevy crisis!
LoL - how many decades would take that ? W.W. is not in his thirties anymore
Feb 20, 2008 11:48:15 AM
- Porky Tokyo
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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
WW gets too much credit for us spending money on a product he doesn't love. He loves money and that is quite obvious. Porsche family members have always loved cars. Piech is no exception. I hope they get rid of him. The brand will continue not because of one mans cost cutting but the tradition, technology that has been created over the last 50 odd years.
At any rate, a lot of what WW does was started off by Dr Bez. Who is now doing similar things with Aston. I think he was the real hero in the last decade or two at Porsche. Anways, just my 2 cents worth.
At any rate, a lot of what WW does was started off by Dr Bez. Who is now doing similar things with Aston. I think he was the real hero in the last decade or two at Porsche. Anways, just my 2 cents worth.
Feb 20, 2008 1:41:18 PM
- Spyderidol
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Feb 20, 2008 3:13:24 PM
- racerx
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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Aren't they forgetting Wolfgang Porsche in this mix?
I hope WW goes and someone with a sense of design and Porsche history takes over.
They need a new flagship, updated 928, and an attractive sedan. Redo the panamera body before its released and claim the mule was just a decoy.
I hope WW goes and someone with a sense of design and Porsche history takes over.
They need a new flagship, updated 928, and an attractive sedan. Redo the panamera body before its released and claim the mule was just a decoy.
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
He is a gr8 leader and incredibly smart but he goofed up with the VW deal. I hope that Porsche does not become just another car manufacturer like japanses cars. It will be a shame for Porsche to lose it's heritage. There was a time than a 911 would show up on a street and people would just stare at it. While that's not the case any more I hope Porsche can maintain it's status and a remain a Car With No Substitute. A while back there is an old say; that Porsches backs look better than their front because no one drives in front of porsches but behind them 
Feb 20, 2008 3:59:21 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I think he is history. Jigs up! He just got some fat paydays so guess what, it makes it easier to tell him goodbye. Maybe he can introduce cheap LED technology to Rolex for his next trick.
WW rode the sales wave from the dot coom, property boom and financial boom markets. Good for him. Yes he sold many little cars to inexperienced people who never drive fast. Big deal.
Porsches core value is from passion and racing. Without racing wins and without militant edgy aggressive dynamic feelings in the car... it is just another car. And that I think is what Peich is really concerned about, that Porsche risks becoming just another brand of vanilla on shelves full of vanillas.
In the meantime we get 911's that seem oddly underdeveloped,
and a mutant Tatra/Passat called Panamara to be the new ugly sister of the old ugly Cayenne.
We await the next generation 911. It better be ruthless and unbeatable or Porsches real joy will be seen only in history books. And please no more secretary or dead actor special editions.
Jim, great post!
Feb 20, 2008 6:04:30 PM
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Ron (Houston)
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- Reply to: JimFlat6
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I think he is history. Jigs up! He just got some fat paydays so guess what, it makes it easier to tell him goodbye. Maybe he can introduce cheap LED technology to Rolex for his next trick.
WW rode the sales wave from the dot coom, property boom and financial boom markets. Good for him. Yes he sold many little cars to inexperienced people who never drive fast. Big deal.
Porsches core value is from passion and racing. Without racing wins and without militant edgy aggressive dynamic feelings in the car... it is just another car. And that I think is what Peich is really concerned about, that Porsche risks becoming just another brand of vanilla on shelves full of vanillas.
In the meantime we get 911's that seem oddly underdeveloped,
and a mutant Tatra/Passat called Panamara to be the new ugly sister of the old ugly Cayenne.
We await the next generation 911. It better be ruthless and unbeatable or Porsches real joy will be seen only in history books. And please no more secretary or dead actor special editions.
Well said Jim. If Porsche wasn't being cosidered as under-performer over-priced car I personally wouldn't look into other brands as is the case with many.
And I fully agree enough of worthless special edition crap. Spcial editions are not like Lambo Reventon for god sakes
.
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I think he is history. Jigs up! He just got some fat paydays so guess what, it makes it easier to tell him goodbye. Maybe he can introduce cheap LED technology to Rolex for his next trick.
WW rode the sales wave from the dot coom, property boom and financial boom markets. Good for him. Yes he sold many little cars to inexperienced people who never drive fast. Big deal.
Porsches core value is from passion and racing. Without racing wins and without militant edgy aggressive dynamic feelings in the car... it is just another car. And that I think is what Peich is really concerned about, that Porsche risks becoming just another brand of vanilla on shelves full of vanillas.
In the meantime we get 911's that seem oddly underdeveloped,
and a mutant Tatra/Passat called Panamara to be the new ugly sister of the old ugly Cayenne.
We await the next generation 911. It better be ruthless and unbeatable or Porsches real joy will be seen only in history books. And please no more secretary or dead actor special editions.
Precisely!
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I think he is history. Jigs up! He just got some fat paydays so guess what, it makes it easier to tell him goodbye. Maybe he can introduce cheap LED technology to Rolex for his next trick.
WW rode the sales wave from the dot coom, property boom and financial boom markets. Good for him. Yes he sold many little cars to inexperienced people who never drive fast. Big deal.
Porsches core value is from passion and racing. Without racing wins and without militant edgy aggressive dynamic feelings in the car... it is just another car. And that I think is what Peich is really concerned about, that Porsche risks becoming just another brand of vanilla on shelves full of vanillas.
In the meantime we get 911's that seem oddly underdeveloped,
and a mutant Tatra/Passat called Panamara to be the new ugly sister of the old ugly Cayenne.
We await the next generation 911. It better be ruthless and unbeatable or Porsches real joy will be seen only in history books. And please no more secretary or dead actor special editions.
Precisely!
Jim has a tendency to hit a nail on its head
.
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
We await the next generation 911. It better be ruthless and unbeatable or Porsches real joy will be seen only in history books. And please no more secretary or dead actor special editions.
Maintain the 911's position in Porsche as the flagship model in the following manner: Move up from a flat-6 to a flat-8, keep it behind the rear axle, remove some of the weight-gaining insulation and trinkets and thrill-robbing engineering and electronic c--- such as automated trannies and stability management, and save the GT-ish approach for a front-engined Panamera coupe (but revise the styling as suggested above on the sedan).
Even if they had to widen the tail by a couple of inches, this could fit a flat-8 into a 911's derrier, and in Carrera form could easily boost naturally aspirated power to 500+ HP, and with turbo's could launch the car to 1,000Nm+ torque with typical Porsche reliability.
This would keep Porsche fans like me in the fold craving new 911 Turbo variants, but hold interest for GT niche buyers like WBH/VKSF who could choose a Panamera coupe over a Ferrari 599 or MB AMG SL65.
And save the PC, greenie weenie hybrid gimmickry for the VW models.
Only problem is Jim would then have to change his name.
Re: Porsche boss in danger ?
Al, I have a different idea in mind. I think Porsche needs a radical and innovative new engine. A engine that will bring some magic and produce a mega wow factor.
Why not a compact Turbine? They make a lot of power, run on any liquid that burns and can burn very clean. They have higher thermal efficiency and cleaner hp production than a reciprocating engine. MPG might be less but they sound cool.
There were a couple of turbine race cars in the 60's until they were banned. With todays technology new ones could be very small, efficient and produce a lot of power.
I dont know what they would call a Turbine powered Porsche coupe but fast as hell.
I can't say for sure that a Turbine is the best solution but they need something new, exciting and very soon.
Why not a compact Turbine? They make a lot of power, run on any liquid that burns and can burn very clean. They have higher thermal efficiency and cleaner hp production than a reciprocating engine. MPG might be less but they sound cool.
There were a couple of turbine race cars in the 60's until they were banned. With todays technology new ones could be very small, efficient and produce a lot of power.
I dont know what they would call a Turbine powered Porsche coupe but fast as hell.
I can't say for sure that a Turbine is the best solution but they need something new, exciting and very soon.
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