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    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    artur777:

    Price - I see, Cayenne will be as usual more expensive

    Performance - glad to see that Turbo S will be a match if not Turbo

    Perception - I hope it will change in 3-4 years because Cayenne is an outstanding SUV car really


    I don't share these expectation, sorry to say. I see more and more how the puplic acceptance of the SUV's and the Cayenne in particular is going from bad to worse.
    --
    Kind regards, Conny 
    More pics: http://www.dayboox.com/group/Connys%20Galerie
    Porsche 997 Turbo * Porsche Cayenne GTS * BMW X5M
     

    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    RC:
    (...)

    The power figures aren't all accurate either but close, a powerful Diesel is also planned.

    (...)
     

    The diesel is the 3.0 turbo diesel used on current cayenne (with some hp increase) or the 3.0 twin turbo diesel that is expected to be on future Audi models (such as the next Audi A7 and other models)? With a power around 300 hp?



    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    palenimbus:

     The new CTT won't be able to match the XM5? Are you sure about that? The current CTT nearly matches the X5M, the next version must be better.

     

    Are you kidding ? The X5 M is 0.4 seconds faster from 0-200 kph than the current Turbo S and the Turbo (without S) has 50 HP less. Do the math.

    I don't have precise performance figures at hand but as far as I remember, the 500 HP Cayenne Turbo does 0-200 kph in 18.9 seconds.

    From 0-100 kph, the X5 M needs 4.7 seconds while the Turbo needs 5.1 seconds.

    On the track, the X5 M and the Cayenne Turbo S are practically the same beast, which is pretty surprising considering the "age" of the Cayenne Turbo S...two years older. Not bad at all but also maybe not that important since these are SUVs.

    Some new information on the Cayenne Diesel: apparently VW has refused to share some technology requested by Porsche. According to a non disclosed source, VW wants first to "sort out" things with Porsche before they give Porsche more access to VW technology. This could delay a couple of projects.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    RC:

    1. price: well...you know who the winner is here

    2. performance: the Turbo is no real match for the X5 M but close (will be different with the Turbo S)

    3. perception: it takes time, I doubt that the public perception is going to be better with the introduction of a new model, on the contrary

     The price for the 10 model will be higher than for the 09 models but if you take 09 model and take all options the 10 model have as standard then the new cayenne is even cheaper!


    --

    AM
    www.aldo-yachting.de


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

     Well I am between an RRS and the new Cayenne.  Bottom line the interior needs to change radically for my family to chose this car, Land Rover made a giant leap with its latest iteration.

    I would like to add that all these performance numbers and the debate about them is somewhat nonsensical.  No one mag actually likes the X5/6M regardless of its performance, everyone likes the GTS because of the "feeling of performance", i.e. handling.

    So for me personally, I need not more than 400bhp (although will settle with 300 if too expensive), a good sound and handling, and a far better interior.  I would even go for a diesel and get it tuned by RUF if required, as long as the handling was there.

    By the way I think the Panamera interior is perfect for what it is, the exterior on the other hand...


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

     The new Cayenne will have a Panamera-like Dashboard. The interior looks really nice.


    --

    AM
    www.aldo-yachting.de


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    I like the pictures of that brown Cayenne. It seems it is the 6 cylinder front, but I like it better! Seems the car will make it in reality and catch us more as on the first spy pictures!


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    JAG007:

     Well I am between an RRS and the new Cayenne.  Bottom line the interior needs to change radically for my family to chose this car, Land Rover made a giant leap with its latest iteration.

    I would like to add that all these performance numbers and the debate about them is somewhat nonsensical.  No one mag actually likes the X5/6M regardless of its performance, everyone likes the GTS because of the "feeling of performance", i.e. handling.

    So for me personally, I need not more than 400bhp (although will settle with 300 if too expensive), a good sound and handling, and a far better interior.  I would even go for a diesel and get it tuned by RUF if required, as long as the handling was there.

    By the way I think the Panamera interior is perfect for what it is, the exterior on the other hand...

     

    Handling-wise, the X5 M is at par with the current Cayenne Turbo S, the slalom peformance is even slightly better. This could change however with the next generation Cayenne which according to our sources is supposed to set a new benchmark regarding track performance.

    The interior will be very Panamera-like, very classy but don't expect gizmos like the video recording camera of the RRS which is really a nice feature.

    It is still unknown how big the weight reduction on the next gen Cayenne will be. The latest rumor indicates a lesser weight reduction than actually anticipated but we will know soon for sure.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

     Thanks for info, although I would say that "handling" is not a objective account based on timing.  How would you compared the GTS to the Turbo for example, it seems for journalists liked the GTS above all others.

    As for the interior, the cameras a very neat features.  Of all the gadgets I have seen so far, cameras and head up displays are the 2 which I feel are worthwhile compared to the usual stuff.  A friend of mine with children even uses his on board movable camera on his Range Rover to watch over his young kids in the back!


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    JAG007:

     Thanks for info, although I would say that "handling" is not a objective account based on timing.  How would you compared the GTS to the Turbo for example, it seems for journalists liked the GTS above all others.

    Well, I can only judge by hard facts and numbers. With the GTS, Porsche did a marvelous job of creating the illusion of a very sporty Cayenne. While in reality, there wasn't much difference compared to the Turbo/Turbo S handling-wise. The GTS felt more direct and sportier (some people called it less comfortable Smiley) and adding 20 horses more, also helped to maintain that illusion.

    Car journalists usually drive pretty common cars in private life. Of course it depends on their position and the importance of their magazine but usually, driving a Cayenne GTS is a real highlight. They also believe very often the enthusiasm car manufacturers create when putting a new model on the street. Of course car journalists are also biased towards a certain model and I think this is just human.

    For me, the X5 M was the right decision because it offers the best I could get in a very non-spectacular package, exactly what I needed. I know that many car journalists criticized the X5 M for being boring and not too much different (exterior) to the "common" X5. I agree and this is exactly the point why I went for the X5 M. For those who are more into looks, there is the X6 M. Same car, different look. Perfect.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    RC:

    For me, the X5 M was the right decision because it offers the best I could get in a very non-spectacular package, exactly what I needed. I know that many car journalists criticized the X5 M for being boring and not too much different (exterior) to the "common" X5. I agree and this is exactly the point why I went for the X5 M. For those who are more into looks, there is the X6 M. Same car, different look. Perfect.

    I would like to hear from you, how the M-B ML and the Range Rovers are assessed by you personally and by others in Germany. Also do they also have an image problem with the public at large?


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

     

    I can't remember the last time i saw a Range Rover here.


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    RC:
     With the GTS, Porsche did a marvelous job of creating the illusion of a very sporty Cayenne. While in reality, there wasn't much difference compared to the Turbo/Turbo S handling-wise. The GTS felt more direct and sportier (some people called it less comfortable Smiley) and adding 20 horses more, also helped to maintain that illusion.

     

     

    As I changed from the GTS to X5M, I can agree with RC in principle, with one exception:

    The GTS is actually equipped (including PDDC) with an excellent and very stable suspension. For me he had a better handling as the Turbo (but have no clue about the turbo S)  But on the whole I missed the power at the GTS so I preferred  the X5M.


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 
    More pics: http://www.dayboox.com/group/Connys%20Galerie
    Porsche 997 Turbo * Porsche Cayenne GTS * BMW X5M
     

    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    The GTS never made sense to me. Personally, I think that the GTS is a "money milking" machine, nothing more. Of course it is a great Cayenne model and of course it is fun to drive, thats not the point. The point is what one gets for the money on the GTS.

    The GTS needed to have the Turbo engine, same chassis setup and maybe lets say 50-100 kg less weight, using lighter materials. THAT would have been justified. Just my personal opinion.

    The REAL joke is the Cayenne GTS PD3 Edition though: so little car for so much money. Crazy. Reminds me a lot of the 997 Sport Classic.

    Right now, I think that the Porsche 997 GT3 offers the best value for the money.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    palenimbus:

     

    I can't remember the last time i saw a Range Rover here.

    Very wise


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    I see at least one or two Range Rover over here in Bavaria every day, in Munich I could raise the count to 5-6 per day. Mostly Range Rover Sport, latest models. I even know two former Cayenne customers who bought one but one of them sold his 997 C4 Cab for a Bentley Continental GT, so I just think he wanted a different type of car.

    I spot much more Jags, Range Rovers and Aston Martin lately, maybe it is just a co-incidence but maybe people just want something different. I also get the feeling that some Germans prefer these cars because most "regular" people don't have a clue what cars these are. Everybody recognizes a Porsche or a Ferrari but a Jaguar or Aston Martin ?! This can actually be an advantage for the owners.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    RC:

    The GTS never made sense to me. Personally, I think that the GTS is a "money milking" machine, nothing more. Of course it is a great Cayenne model and of course it is fun to drive, thats not the point. The point is what one gets for the money on the GTS.

    The GTS needed to have the Turbo engine, same chassis setup and maybe lets say 50-100 kg less weight, using lighter materials. THAT would have been justified. Just my personal opinion.


     

    Christian, only my opinion:
    when I decided in 2008 on the GTS he made perfect sense for me personally as I not wanted the Turbo and the Turbo S doesn’t exist at that time.

    However, not compared to a Turbo or a form of "GT" in the SUV-class (similar to the 997 GT3 vs. 997 S), but as an REAL alternative to the Cayenne S for the following reasons:

    really very good chassis, tighter suspension and with the PDDC enormous cornering ability.
    Furthermore I like much better the "Turbolike" optics  with the sportpackage incl. lower mouldings  and aluminium trim compared to the Cayenne S even to the standard Turbo.

    A good point as well: the other seat graphic with Alcantara. This seat is really comfortable and provide good lateral support.  The powergain of 20 hp, of course, wasn’t a great deal but not disturbing.

    More essential for me:

    The sticker of the GTS includes some more options which are to pay as an extra  to the Cayenne S.  

    21-inch wheels
    Sport Exhaust System
    Turbo brakes
    Aluminium package
    Sportpackage
     a.s.o.

    The effective surcharge in the GTS is very small compared with the S.
    Therefore the decision was very clear for the GTS and made a lot sense for me. (imho)
     A truly sporty GT-Model, as described by you, would have been a gain for the Cayenne in general, no doubt about, but the GTS should’t play this role at any time.


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 
    More pics: http://www.dayboox.com/group/Connys%20Galerie
    Porsche 997 Turbo * Porsche Cayenne GTS * BMW X5M
     

    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

     Thanks RC,

    My question is do you enjoy the X5M because of the power exclusively?  Not living in Germany the actual power for us in the rest of the world (or nearly!) is not as important as the feeling and handling of the car.  In the UK speeding is the equivalent of being a sexual deviant!

    By the way I meant no disrespect on the X5M comments, I did not realise you had one, if I had I would have been more diplomatic!


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    JAG007:

     Thanks RC,

    My question is do you enjoy the X5M because of the power exclusively?  Not living in Germany the actual power for us in the rest of the world (or nearly!) is not as important as the feeling and handling of the car.  In the UK speeding is the equivalent of being a sexual deviant!

    By the way I meant no disrespect on the X5M comments, I did not realise you had one, if I had I would have been more diplomatic!

     

    Why do you apologize? No need to do that, we are friends over here and friends talk openly about what they think. This is actually a very good thing because it keeps people (incl. ME) thinking and analyzing decisions, very good food for thought. Smiley

    My choice for the X5 M wasn't an emotional one, it was a rational choice. I still like the X5 M a lot (just can't wait to get it in March) but it is somehow a compromise regarding its "understatement" look. Handling-/Performance-wise, the X5 M is no compromise at all, it is at par with the current Cayenne Turbo S and even slightly outruns it up to 200 kph. Not bad for a SUV which costs (counting in rebates, options, etc) aprox. 30000 (!) EUR less than the current Cayenne Turbo S.

    So where is actually the downside going for the X5 M? It is the perfect family car for ME. I even considered a Panamera Turbo but for the very same reasons I sold my Cayenne Turbo S, the Panamera Turbo was a no go for me. Other "options" like the Mercedes C63 AMG were interesting too but I'm not really the type driving a Mercedes or a 2WD sedan. I live in Bavaria and travel often to Austria for skiing, a 4WD family car is almost a must over here.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

     Well the proof will be in the pudding, so roll on March!


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    Well, I already testdrove the X6 M and I really liked it, the X5 M isn't much different, just the look.  


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    Conny997:

    However, not compared to a Turbo or a form of "GT" in the SUV-class (similar to the 997 GT3 vs. 997 S), but as an REAL alternative to the Cayenne S for the following reasons: ....

    Compared to the Cayenne S, this definetely makes sense.

    Since you own a X5 M now and have better comparison now with the Cayenne GTS, you may realize that especially on a heavy SUV, the POWER is actually what counts most. Of course the chassis is important too but what does a sporty chassis help if your car barely moves?! Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    I currently checking to get a Range Rover Sport. I already wanted an SUV last year (Cayenne GTS), but after hearing more and more about the model change I was deciding to wait.

    I had the RRS for couple of days as a test car. Had to admit, that I really was pleased on the drive. The car feels like an S-Class, very relaxing! The handling is great, of course far away from the sportiness of an X5. Anyway - I loved it.

    Regarding publicity - more eyes checked me in that RRS as when I'm driving the 911. Its amazing, how people are looking on you and their eyes have been telling me a story. So to say - yes, there is kind of jealousy going out from this car, too.

    I'm not sure if I will go for the deal, yet - but I really love this car. Anyway - driving to clients it seems, people allow to you to arrive in a decent Sedan, but anything extraordinary like SUV, sports car is a killer for the business. So I'm not sure if I will do that to me - that's why I'm hesitating.

     

     

     


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    RC:
    Conny997:

    However, not compared to a Turbo or a form of "GT" in the SUV-class (similar to the 997 GT3 vs. 997 S), but as an REAL alternative to the Cayenne S for the following reasons: ....

    Compared to the Cayenne S, this definetely makes sense.

    Since you own a X5 M now and have better comparison now with the Cayenne GTS, you may realize that especially on a heavy SUV, the POWER is actually what counts most. Of course the chassis is important too but what does a sporty chassis help if your car barely moves?! Smiley

     

    100% agree, no doubt about.Smiley
    Especially a SUV needs a lot of power, there is no substitute, except with more power..Smiley

    But my point wasn't the expected fact that the X5M is no comparison to the GTS, as the X5M is another class such as the Cayenne Turbo S which isn’t comparable to the GTS either.
    The GTS is more comparable with the Cayenne S, the ML 500 and the X6 4.4i, as for the hp.

    And there it makes a lot of sense, apart from the fact of the new Cayenne 2010.
    I think you got the point...Smiley


     


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 
    More pics: http://www.dayboox.com/group/Connys%20Galerie
    Porsche 997 Turbo * Porsche Cayenne GTS * BMW X5M
     

    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    Lars997:

    I'm not sure if I will go for the deal, yet - but I really love this car. Anyway - driving to clients it seems, people allow to you to arrive in a decent Sedan, but anything extraordinary like SUV, sports car is a killer for the business. So I'm not sure if I will do that to me - that's why I'm hesitating.

    Go to your local BMW dealer and get a quote for a X5 M. You'll be surprised how good his offer will be and I doubt that any of your customers would care about a BMW X5. Smiley

    Two more hints: the BMW X6/X5 LCI (facelift) introduces the new 4.0 l Diesel with 306 HP (this has been already confirmed by a friend, it is 100%). The 4.4 l 408 HP engine also comes to the X5 now and the performance package with 450 HP should also be available. Both cost less than the X5 M if money is important.

    I can imagine that a X5 with 408 or 450 HP is still a lot of fun, especially since nobody actually KNOWS from looking at them how much power these cars have.

    The X5 is a well established SUV in Germany, no danger here.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    Thanks RC - the 306HP diesel is the machine I'm waiting for! Anyway - my wife has a british piece in her heart, so her wish is the RRS. I like the car, too.

    But to be honest - I dont have to rush - I will see what I will do next!

    The X5 might be the best and most complete SUVs on the market anyway. And as you said - its well established in Germany!"


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    Have you seen the X6 M vs. Range Rover Sport video Ron posted in the M forum ? Very interesting, the Range Rover Sport is even much slower than the Cayenne Turbo...without S.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    I have had the RR supercharged for a test, nice car but in my opinion you cannot compare it with the CTT, complete different ride, not as fast, indeed has different qualities.
    --
    2008 Cayenne Turbo - 2007 BMW X5 4.8is (sold) - 2007 Landcruiser Prado - 1997 Wrangler TJ - 1957 LR

    Re: 2011 Cayenne with no camo

    RR without a third row does not make sense...


     
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