Crown

Forum - Thread


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sidicks:
    Leawood911:

    The way you can tell you are in a manual it that it NEVER SHIFTS on its own, when you come to a stop the engine stalls if you don't push in the clutch...

    So the fact that the 991 GT3 PDK-S NEVER shifts on its own when in manual mode is lost on you?  Plus of of course you can stall the PDK-S..

    Now who's foolish?  Smiley

    The key point of course is that IN MANUAL MODE, the gears are directly controlled by the driver 'manually' - this is why people talk about the GT3 in this way - it's totally different than a conventional automatic, which is the key point.

    Smiley Exactly. Also, the difference in shifting speed/reaction of PDK in the GT3 (or even the new Turbo/S) vs. Tiptronic (the TRUE automatic transmission Porsche used in the 997.1 models and earlier) is HUGE, like day and night, both in manual and auto mode.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    sidicks:
    Leawood911:

    The way you can tell you are in a manual it that it NEVER SHIFTS on its own, when you come to a stop the engine stalls if you don't push in the clutch...

    So the fact that the 991 GT3 PDK-S NEVER shifts on its own when in manual mode is lost on you?  Plus of of course you can stall the PDK-S..

    Now who's foolish?  Smiley

    The key point of course is that IN MANUAL MODE, the gears are directly controlled by the driver 'manually' - this is why people talk about the GT3 in this way - it's totally different than a conventional automatic, which is the key point.

    Smiley Exactly. Also, the difference in shifting speed/reaction of PDK in the GT3 (or even the new Turbo/S) vs. Tiptronic (the TRUE automatic transmission Porsche used in the 997.1 models and earlier) is HUGE, like day and night, both in manual and auto mode.

    In Manual Mode the driver does not have direct control of the transmission.  That control still resides with the PDK controller.  

    When a driver depresses a paddle to initiate a gear change, an electronic signal is sent from the paddle switch to the electronic controller for the PDK.  The electronic controller will then only begin the control sequence  for the driver requested gear change only if the request is within an allowable parametric range.  If, for any reason, the allowable parametric range is exceeded because of the requested gear change, the controller for the PDK will not perform the requested gear change.  At all times, the PDK controller, and not the driver maintains direct control of the PDK transmission.  

    If, with a true manual transmission, I downshift to too low of a gear, there is nothing but the exploding engine to stop that from happening.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    In Manual Mode the driver does not have direct control of the transmission.  That control still resides with the PDK controller.  

    When a driver depresses a paddle to initiate a gear change, an electronic signal is sent from the paddle switch to the electronic controller for the PDK.  The electronic controller will then only begin the control sequence  for the driver requested gear change only if the request is within an allowable parametric range.  If, for any reason, the allowable parametric range is exceeded because of the requested gear change, the controller for the PDK will not perform the requested gear change.  At all times, the PDK controller, and not the driver maintains direct control of the PDK transmission.  

    If, with a true manual transmission, I downshift to too low of a gear, there is nothing but the exploding engine to stop that from happening.  

     

    So to be clear, WHEN IN MANUAL MODE, the PDK-S will let you do everything you can do in a manual car APART FROM CHANGES WHICH WOULD DESTROY YOUR ENGINE.

    And you see that as a BAD thing?!

    Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sidicks:
    CGX car nut:
    In Manual Mode the driver does not have direct control of the transmission.  That control still resides with the PDK controller.  

    When a driver depresses a paddle to initiate a gear change, an electronic signal is sent from the paddle switch to the electronic controller for the PDK.  The electronic controller will then only begin the control sequence  for the driver requested gear change only if the request is within an allowable parametric range.  If, for any reason, the allowable parametric range is exceeded because of the requested gear change, the controller for the PDK will not perform the requested gear change.  At all times, the PDK controller, and not the driver maintains direct control of the PDK transmission.  

    If, with a true manual transmission, I downshift to too low of a gear, there is nothing but the exploding engine to stop that from happening.  

     

    So to be clear, WHEN IN MANUAL MODE, the PDK-S will let you do everything you can do in a manual car APART FROM CHANGES WHICH WOULD DESTROY YOUR ENGINE.

    And you see that as a BAD thing?!

    Smiley

    Was that ever stated?  

    The U.S. government, as one has previously provided, has a very specific definition for manual and automatic transmissions, for certification purposes.  The Porsche PDK, in whatever letterized variant, does not meet the exact definition of a manual; consequently, those cars are certified for sale in the United States as being equipped with an automatic transmission.  An example was provided why the PDK is not a manual transmission, in the traditional sense.

    One has yet to drive the new GT3 with the PDK-S box, but having spent much time with the other dual-clutch boxes, there are limitations when compared with a manual transmission.  For example, when leaving a tollbooth on the expressway, it may, depending on the weather, to leave the booth in second gear.  Often times, the tarmac at the tollbooth are oil covered, and when it is cooler and rainy, exhibit low mu conditions.  Hence, to limit wheel slip, even with traction control enable, second gear launches are easier than in first.  Most dual-clutch boxes will overrule this command.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:

    One has yet to drive the new GT3 with the PDK-S box, but having spent much time with the other dual-clutch boxes, there are limitations when compared with a manual transmission.  For example, when leaving a tollbooth on the expressway, it may, depending on the weather, to leave the booth in second gear.  Often times, the tarmac at the tollbooth are oil covered, and when it is cooler and rainy, exhibit low mu conditions.  Hence, to limit wheel slip, even with traction control enable, second gear launches are easier than in first.  Most dual-clutch boxes will overrule this command.

    Is this how the PDK-S gearbox in the 991 GT3 works?

    Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sidicks:
    CGX car nut:

    One has yet to drive the new GT3 with the PDK-S box, but having spent much time with the other dual-clutch boxes, there are limitations when compared with a manual transmission.  For example, when leaving a tollbooth on the expressway, it may, depending on the weather, to leave the booth in second gear.  Often times, the tarmac at the tollbooth are oil covered, and when it is cooler and rainy, exhibit low mu conditions.  Hence, to limit wheel slip, even with traction control enable, second gear launches are easier than in first.  Most dual-clutch boxes will overrule this command.

    Is this how the PDK-S gearbox in the 991 GT3 works?

    Smiley

    So you have driven, over a wide variety of conditions, the new 991 GT3?  If so, congratulations.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    So you have driven, over a wide variety of conditions, the new 991 GT3?  If so, congratulations.

    So in a discussion about the 991 GT3 PDK-S gearbox, you are making your comments based purely on your experience of OTHER gearboxes, totally different to the PDK-S.

    Smiley

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    So you have driven, over a wide variety of conditions, the new 991 GT3?  If so, congratulations.

     

    So you know more about the PDK-S gearbox than Porsche do themselves?  If so, congratulations...

    Smiley

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sidicks:
    CGX car nut:
    So you have driven, over a wide variety of conditions, the new 991 GT3?  If so, congratulations.

    So in a discussion about the 991 GT3 PDK-S gearbox, you are making our comments based purely on your experience of OTHER gearboxes, totally different to the PDK-S.

    Smiley

     

    Does one realize that the PDK-S box is little different from the myriad other dual-clutch gearboxes?

    In principle and in design, dual-clutch gear boxes are much like.  The Porsche PDK-S, and the "S" is nothing more programmatic changes from the normal PDK box, is rather close in design to the Audi S-tronic seven speed transmission found in the longitudinal engined cars. For example, in both the Porsche and Audi designs the input and output shafts share the same face.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    Does one realize that the PDK-S box is little different from the myriad other dual-clutch gearboxes?

    In principle and in design, dual-clutch gear boxes are much like.  The Porsche PDK-S, and the "S" is nothing more programmatic changes from the normal PDK box, is rather close in design to the Audi S-tronic seven speed transmission found in the longitudinal engined cars. For example, in both the Porsche and Audi designs the input and output shafts share the same face.

    So you still maintain you know more about this gearbox than Porsche themselves?!

    Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sidicks:
    CGX car nut:
    Does one realize that the PDK-S box is little different from the myriad other dual-clutch gearboxes?

    In principle and in design, dual-clutch gear boxes are much like.  The Porsche PDK-S, and the "S" is nothing more programmatic changes from the normal PDK box, is rather close in design to the Audi S-tronic seven speed transmission found in the longitudinal engined cars. For example, in both the Porsche and Audi designs the input and output shafts share the same face.

    So you still maintain you know more about this gearbox than Porsche themselves?!

    Smiley

    So now you work for Porsche, since you're attempting to speak for that entity?  

    What I do know is that in the United States, which is, by the way, a significantly larger market for Porsche, than the entire British Empire, has classified the Porsche PDK and the Porsche PDK-S as an automatic transmission.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:

    So now you work for Porsche, since you're attempting to speak for that entity?  

    Hmm, very strange.  It was you who was claiming how the PDK-S gearbox worked (based purely on your experience of other non-PDK-S gearboxes).

    I am simply repeating what Porsche has claimed in it's own literature for the 991 GT3 available to depositors.

    Having designed and marketed the car, Porsche's own comments therefore would appear to hold more weight than yours (unless you can justify otherwise?)

    CGX car nut:

    What I do know is that in the United States, which is, by the way, a significantly larger market for Porsche, than the entire British Empire, has classified the Porsche PDK and the Porsche PDK-S as an automatic transmission.  

    But that is missing the point, as you well know.

    Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sidicks:
    CGX car nut:

    So now you work for Porsche, since you're attempting to speak for that entity?  

    Hmm, very strange.  It was you who was claiming how the PDK-S gearbox worked (based purely on your experience of other non-PDK-S gearboxes).

    I am simply repeating what Porsche has claimed in it's own literature for the 991 GT3 available to depositors.

    Having designed and marketed the car, Porsche's own comments therefore would appear to hold more weight than yours (unless you can justify otherwise?)

    CGX car nut:

    What I do know is that in the United States, which is, by the way, a significantly larger market for Porsche, than the entire British Empire, has classified the Porsche PDK and the Porsche PDK-S as an automatic transmission.  

    But that is missing the point, as you well know.

    Smiley

    Besides the Porsche marketing blurb what differentiates the Porsche dual-clutch transmission, in theory and design, from the competition?  The PDK-S is essentially the normal PDK box with shorter ratios and additional programmed features including the ability to open both clutches via the paddle shifters.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    Besides the Porsche marketing blurb what differentiates the Porsche dual-clutch transmission, in theory and design, from the competition?  The PDK-S is essentially the normal PDK box with shorter ratios and additional programmed features including the ability to open both clutches via the paddle shifters.

    So you're going to continue to claim that, despite Porsche's information to the contrary, IN MANUAL MODE, the PDK-S gearbox will shift gears without your 'permission'?

    Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sidicks:
    CGX car nut:
    Besides the Porsche marketing blurb what differentiates the Porsche dual-clutch transmission, in theory and design, from the competition?  The PDK-S is essentially the normal PDK box with shorter ratios and additional programmed features including the ability to open both clutches via the paddle shifters.

    So you're going to continue to claim that, despite Porsche's information to the contrary, IN MANUAL MODE, the PDK-S gearbox will shift gears without your 'permission'?

    Smiley

    Yes, for example, during braking, even in MANUAL mode, the PDK-S will downshift instead of allowing the car to stall during the deceleration phase, if the RPMs fall below the engine's stall speed.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I haven't driven one fo I don't actually know the question to this (and so not trying to be a smartass) but say you're in manual, in 6th gear on the highway and brake to a stop without shifting or trying to touch the paddles. Will the car stall? will it let you try to drive off from a stop in 6th? will it let you lug and stutter and maybe stall at that point?


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    You were too fast! I was writing while you were posting!


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Mithras:

    You were too fast! I was writing while you were posting!

    100 ms typing speed!


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    sidicks:
    CGX car nut:
    Besides the Porsche marketing blurb what differentiates the Porsche dual-clutch transmission, in theory and design, from the competition?  The PDK-S is essentially the normal PDK box with shorter ratios and additional programmed features including the ability to open both clutches via the paddle shifters.

    So you're going to continue to claim that, despite Porsche's information to the contrary, IN MANUAL MODE, the PDK-S gearbox will shift gears without your 'permission'?

    Smiley

    Yes, for example, during braking, even in MANUAL mode, the PDK-S will downshift instead of allowing the car to stall during the deceleration phase, if the RPMs fall below the engine's stall speed.

    From where did you get this information?

    "According to the product update: “M” without automatic shift functions"

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sidicks:
    CGX car nut:
    sidicks:
    CGX car nut:
    Besides the Porsche marketing blurb what differentiates the Porsche dual-clutch transmission, in theory and design, from the competition?  The PDK-S is essentially the normal PDK box with shorter ratios and additional programmed features including the ability to open both clutches via the paddle shifters.

    So you're going to continue to claim that, despite Porsche's information to the contrary, IN MANUAL MODE, the PDK-S gearbox will shift gears without your 'permission'?

    Smiley

    Yes, for example, during braking, even in MANUAL mode, the PDK-S will downshift instead of allowing the car to stall during the deceleration phase, if the RPMs fall below the engine's stall speed.

    From where did you get this information?

    "According to the product update: “M” without automatic shift functions"

     

     

    No car certified equipped with an automatic for sale in the U.S. would have a program that allowed the engine to stall from too low engine RPMs when under braking.  That marketing statement refers to allowing the driver maintain the same gear up to the "red line" without an automatic up shift. Many dual-clutch transmissions will automatically up shift when the red line is reached even in sport and manual modes.  Note the red line for the gear many not be the same as the red line utilized by the transmission control unit. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I would not wish this forum to descend to the level of the  991 GT3  forum on another site.  Should that forum be somehow given a cathartic it would disappear.  


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    " The way you can tell you are in a manual it that it NEVER SHIFTS on its own, when you come to a stop the engine stalls if you don't push in the clutch.  If it does not have a clutch or it can shift on its own then it is not a manual. "    When you put PDK in Auto mode it shifts on it's own.  What part of NEVER SHIFTS on its own is so hard to understand folks?  It also has no clutch pedal!!  What part of that don't you see?  (A clutch pedal is the third one on the left!)                                               Christ - are you guys seriously trying to make me believe that because PDK has a manual mode it is the same as a manual transmission?  Really?  PDK has an automatic mode too, right? So it the same as an automatic too?  Every auto I have seen gives you some gear selection choices, bla bla.  ON THE OTHER HAND  I have never driven a true manual that has an automatic mode and NO clutch pedal.  Argue all you want that the PDK is better and faster than a manual but then it makes no sense that you consider it a manual as well.  Come on - when comparing it to a true manual you are comparing it to a transmission with a clutch and a shift lever with no automatic mode at all. That what you think is slower and what you are making fun of for being old fashioned.  It can't be both!  Else you would be comparing it to a PDK in manual mode.  Why can't you at least settle on the definition of MANUAL TRANSMISSION. It is Universally understood - except until now in this thread. The US government is not wrong in their definition of manual vs. automatic you have simply lost every last objective bone in your body in promoting the PDK (S or not)  - Can't believe I am taking part in such a silly debate.Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Lets stop this discussion before we become like the other boards.......anymore new tasty video/article links anyone?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Maual VS Automatic  before year 2000 has a very distinctive explaination. 

    Government's definition on both transmissions back in the days doesn't applied to the advanced world of Techology now.

    Why is there a comparsion of the two transmissions?  Each one is to a person's definition on driving thrill.  What Porsche is doing is trying to make "automatic" more attractive than before, and certainly they had done a great job on the PDK and attracted a lot more percentage in their orders.  

    Manual shifters are enjoying the pressing on clutch and throw in the gear....  This could not be replaced by PDK's mechanical advanment.  Pleasure sometimes can not be replaced by percision lightening gear change....   I had a 991S PDK, and loving how fast the gear change and love the way it down shifts which I can never replicated if I drive manual nor anybody.....    However, I do miss that right hand control on the shift nob, but at the same time, I get more pleasure from PDK fast gear change....  

    Porsche is trying to satisfy all of the market in the world, and there are a lot of countries have 99.9% of cars in "automatic".  With the demographic of large auto-tranny acceptance countries, they are obviously putting more money in research for the best of both manual and automatic transmission togther.    It is still an "automatic", but it is much closer to manual as possible transmission.  Suppose you have to drive one and know how good it is to decide if u have that spare room of imagination and let Porsche's PDK inject you are different sense of pleasure....  PDK is now become a "irreplacable" on its own catagory.....  so, its not a manual, nor automatic.... its a PDK.

     

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I am fully with Leawood here - but I don't understand the whole "taking sides" story here - all "we" as manual fans want is the option to choose. We're all aware of the greatness of PDK in these days and it's advantages for those loving to brag about numbers - but the only thing we don't like is that people can't choose in many "modern" cars anymore. No PDK manual whatever will replace the fun for some people handling 3 pedals and a shortshift stick - period.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Yip. We get it. Porsche f*cked up and should have offer MT only or a choice...

    Has anyone seen any new reviews on the web lately. What about new videos?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    u obviously don't....try again sloooowly. wink


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I get why they have had to go with PDK and I am mildly optomistic that this version of PDK may be a semi-automatic that I could live with (Hated my 997.2 C2S PDK, but loved BMW M3 E46 SMG2), for much of the reasons posted above.

    I do think they should have offered MT and PDK as options. That way they could have had the best of both worlds -Keep all the die-hard MT fans happy, and PDK for those fans too. Also they would then be able to use the PDK equipped car for setting those all so important track & lap times and to fend off the army of GTR fans saying "my car is faster than a GT3".


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Let me put it this way:

    Out of 100 potential GT3 customers, less than 10 insist on getting manual (they wouldn't get it with PDK).

    Out of 100 potential GT3 customers, more than 50 wouldn't get the GT3 without PDK.

    So now put yourself in Porsche's (marketing) shoes: What would you do?!

    Exactly. wink

    The above figures are fictional, actually even less than 10% insist on manual (according to what I heard) but offering manual for the GT3 would not only make the GT3 slower (just imagine the reviews...) but Porsche would also make less profit on the GT3 because they would have to buy a small amount of manual transmissions, to develop a different chassis setup WITHOUT the AWS or at least without the electronic diff. (according to various sources, AWS is pretty difficult to setup the way it works now with manual, the electronic diff. would be almost impossible) and so on.

    As somebody responsible for marketing at Porsche, would you do that? I wouldn't.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Let me put it this way:

    1, Out of 100 potential GT3 customers, less than 10 insist on getting manual (they wouldn't get it with PDK).

    2, Out of 100 potential GT3 customers, more than 50 wouldn't get the GT3 without PDK.

    3, So now put yourself in Porsche's (marketing) shoes: What would you do?!

    Exactly. wink

    1, I am not in the 10 and less.

    2, I too would not get it in shift stick form.

    3, The exact same, it's called business.

    lol...


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 10/25/21 12:29 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    500542 1291
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 11/8/21 7:43 PM
    Leawood911
    181341 1154
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 12/5/21 9:31 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    71959 384
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 11/25/21 6:30 PM
    watt
    67393 686
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 11/19/21 6:44 AM
    bluelines
    53383 529
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    49134 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    13489 29
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/18/21 3:28 PM
    RCA
    581 0
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    Topspeed
    474848 3587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/28/21 3:25 AM
    WhoopsyM
    390230 3507
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 11/25/21 12:31 AM
    WhoopsyM
    386433 3949
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/17/21 5:18 PM
    Rossi
    351841 3256
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 10/8/21 11:41 AM
    xpto
    321867 2647
    Porsche 992 GT3 12/5/21 5:41 PM
    WhoopsyM
    281035 3156
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 9/29/21 1:59 AM
    watt
    254981 1587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    169456 1379
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    120158 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/22/21 1:28 AM
    Leawood911
    104581 749
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/4/21 12:36 AM
    Leawood911
    95983 1245
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    83396 209
    Lambo Aventador and SV 8/27/21 2:33 PM
    Topspeed
    74450 698
    AMG AMG GT R 7/8/21 3:07 PM
    CGX car nut
    74342 824
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/3/21 3:53 PM
    Topspeed
    54588 1399
    Others Bugatti Chiron 11/4/21 5:58 AM
    WhoopsyM
    44152 500
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 11/10/21 2:32 PM
    Topspeed
    41406 532
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    40009 615
    Porsche GT4RS 12/3/21 5:15 PM
    Rossi
    38655 713
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 12/5/21 6:03 PM
    WhoopsyM
    34556 1131
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    31241 394
    Ferrari 488 Replacement 4/17/21 8:28 PM
    Rossi
    28060 370
    250 items found, displaying 1 to 30.