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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    Tim:
    Leawood911:

    Forget about it. That is a simple problem.  Drive a Tesla. It keeps track of ten times the interactions you describe. And it never rests and is always on the lookout. Even with autopilot deactivated it would jump in and react if there was a vehicle in your path. It uses the concept of drivable space. For actual information into how they solve problems like the one above check out their last investor video where they describe the hardware, software and how the AI learns based on all the miles the fleet has driven.  It is remarkable and as a software developer I get it. To think a human can track as many possible outcomes and decision points is just silly. It will only keep getting better. 
    I totally get that the automakers who can’t do this - yet - as well as Tesla claim it is difficult. It is. But to think everyone needs to be in an autonomous car is silly. There are still pedestrians and bikes as well as weather and tons of natural hazards.  The car will still be millions of calculations ahead in all these scenarios than a person. 
    Drove 10 hours back on i70 yesterday. At night the wind from the north made staying on the road quite difficult for everyone around me. Without autopilot it would have been a long night keeping the car going in its lane. Instead I just turned the system on and it allowed me to pay extra attention to those other hazards. The car fought the wind and turns effortlessly. Most impressive at 85 mph.  The car is especially useful in the fog when a human would not even see a car. The Tesla even sees when a car ahead in traffic is stopped long before a human would be able to see it with the other car in the way. 
    Expect close to a ten fold increase in safety according to the insurance institute. That is due to active safety which is always on standby. It also makes you a better driver, if you don’t use your turn signal all the time you will soon get tired of the system reminding you - love that. 

    Out of curiosity - how does a Tesla with the latest software react in the scenario mentioned above? This is a pretty common scenario, right... .


     

     

    Teslas on autopilot just drive straight over the pot holes, they don't react to them as they can't see them. Many have damaged rims as a result.

    Autopilot are programmed to stay within the white lines. 

    I don’t think he was talking about the pot holes. The car will avoid all obstacles unless they pose no danger. A pothole poses no danger to life. Most humans hit them especially in traffic when there is no choice.  Some things are better solved by street maintenance.  Are we waiting forever for full autonomy?  A better issue is something like do you hit a dog or pedestrians when forced to choose. These are much better problems if you want to illustrate the problem of autonomy. 
    As the Tesla is sitting or driving it is tracking all moving and stationary objects. It is constantly making ballistic calculations for each object depending on its speed and direction of travel. If it senses something entering or about to enter your open space it will take evasive action based on all available choices.  These are millions if not billions of decisions per second. After many hours of driving no human can match the number of things it is watching out for.  Priceless and included in the cars price. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Gladstone:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:
    Leawood911:

    Again -  confusion seems to exist between what a driving aid is vs level 5 autonomy.

    I will trust my experience over these well intentioned articles which focus on total autonomy. Ask why insurers rate the Tesla so much safer?  Silly to argue it is not. Minds throws the whole legitimacy of the author out the window. 

    Leawood, we know you like the technology, so I sincerely encourage you to read the article again and try to understand the Waymo experience...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    Waymo uses data and testing to make decisions. Five years ago, they let employees try out the tech for a few weeks. What Waymo found was extremely troubling. At first, users were nervous and didn't trust the car.  However, that quickly reversed and they came to trust the car too much. It's very hard for humans to pay attention when not making decisions. Waymo found that users simply were not able to take over control of the car in a reliable fashion. When partial autonomy failed, it became dangerous because the human was not prepared to take over control...

    ...you may be making the same mistake as those Waymo employees using partial autonomy — you trust your car too much! Smiley

    Smiley  The idea of Leawood actually really blindly trusting the car is some really funny stuff. How often in Europe do you take a drive in excess of 2,000km and only stop the absolute minimum number of times for a very quick fuel stop ?  Leawood has a history of taking such drives multiple times per year and I have been along on a number of these to see that he never used cruise control. I would feel confident with a driving history of that sort, that he is still closely monitoring the auto pilot while possibly improving his intake of every event within visual range fore and aft

    I guess if the system allows the mind to wonder, it would be a question of whether your thoughts are still focused on all the information you can take in from your surroundings or are you going to try and read a book while driving.

    Well put. I would never trust the system as long as I’m in the drivers seat. The main benefit is that it allows you to rest your mind while driving. Keeping a car pointed straight on a windy highway is very tiresome. Having the car keep its lane and watch out for obstacles is a great way to focus on other aspects of traffic and to much rather distances. I would never trade for a car which cut down my range. 
    It is a driving aid not a driver replacement. As such no one is close. Not by a decade. 
    Most of the level 5 issues will also be regulatory issues. It is smart to take baby steps to smooth this process. 



    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:
     

    I don’t think he was talking about the pot holes. The car will avoid all obstacles unless they pose no danger. A pothole poses no danger to life. Most humans hit them especially in traffic when there is no choice.  Some things are better solved by street maintenance.  Are we waiting forever for full autonomy?  A better issue is something like do you hit a dog or pedestrians when forced to choose. These are much better problems if you want to illustrate the problem of autonomy. 
    As the Tesla is sitting or driving it is tracking all moving and stationary objects. It is constantly making ballistic calculations for each object depending on its speed and direction of travel. If it senses something entering or about to enter your open space it will take evasive action based on all available choices.  These are millions if not billions of decisions per second. After many hours of driving no human can match the number of things it is watching out for.  Priceless and included in the cars price. 

     

    Argue all you want about potholes posing no danger, they still do. You hit one hard enough and the wheel will bend and tire will burst, sudden lost of control of the car come right after. 

    Wrong about most human hit them in traffic, as a car don't occupy the whole width of a lane and there's room to maneuver, and human will also cross the dividing lines to avoid them when there is room, autopilot car can't cross the line, they are restricted in their ability.

    Tesla sensors can only track what it can 'see', but it's resolution is very low and at the end of the day, it's a reactive system based on what's programmed into the system, it can't think for itself or make predictions like human brains can. 

    Human eyes can take in far more information than Tesla's sensors can ever do. There are many many scenarios where human's experience and prediction trumps the sensors' preprogrammed reactions.  

    Try to pass a car on the autobahn? An autopilot sensor can only 'see' up to its limited range, it can't see far. Human eyes can see much farther. A human can spot a car coming during the mirror check before pulling out, and on autobahn when you see a car coming, that means it's too late to pull out, it will be very dangerous and a collision is almost bound to happen. Human drivers will wait for the speeding car to pass before pulling out, a autopilot car will just pull out when it thinks it's clear since it can't see the car coming. 

    A driver behind another car on the right lane, his hand is on the signal stalk, and he is constantly checking the mirror and shoulder check, human eyes can see and predict he wanted to change lane, and will adjust driving style accordingly. An autopilot car cannot see inside the window and what the other driver is doing, it can only react when that driver make a move. 

    You on the freeway, you can see a couple miles up there is a line of police cars, and traffic ones to a halt, human eye can see that and perhaps take the closest exit to avoid the traffic jam. An autopilot can only 'react' to what information it has, perhaps the incident hasn't been reported yet and so it will continue on the freeway as if nothing happens and slow down until stuck inside the traffic jam. 

    A dog is chasing a cat. Human eyes can see the dog running from the left driveway heading toward the road, autopilot can't, it can only see the dog when it reaches the road and gets into it's field of view before reacting to the incident. Same with children, football, whatever. 

    Human brains is really amazing in processing information, especially when they are not a linear stream of information. Our brains can also combine and inject previous experiences into modifying the final solution. The processor inside Tesla's autopilot, or any automated driving system for that matters, is still a linear processor, IF this THEN do that down the list of things to do, and it's only as good as how it is programmed. 

    Human eyes are also very adapt at identifying movement? and picking out flesh colour? Flesh colour identification means they can see other humans quicker than sensor can. Sensors on a car are also stationary, it's field of view is restricted, unlike a human head that can rotate and the human eye can pick up slight movements even at the edge of the current field of view. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    All true depending on the human and the state of the human. I don’t know how many times I can say drivers aid and you try to solve pothole problems with level 5 autonomy. 
    Do watch last years YouTube presentation by Tesla’s engineering team regarding the automation for a clear understanding of how it works.  You might be surprised. 
    And yes, it can see and plan for more things than the human eye because it uses radar to look around objects. It is also far more aware of traffic and the environment than you imagine. It can spot a puddle of water and take anticipatory actions based on temps etc.  Unless you have hundreds of millions of miles of experience the tesla has had more scenarios to learn from. Again, right now the system works with an alert human. It is not level 5 but then again it is what is included with the price of the car. Not even talking about the $8k option (navigate on autopilot) which have never heard me endorse.  I am always just talking about it making driving easier and safer - not level 5. So I agree with you!!!  
     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Eventually Tesla will have no choice but to move to Lidar. Radar simply don't have enough resolution to do what Elon wants to do.

    Its camera and image based auto driving system is there because it's the easiest and cheapest to utilize at the time. But  it's all 2D and needed radar signals to complete the 3D picture. Lidar by itself already provide the complete 3D image in high resolution. 

    Actions taken by the car is from preprogrammed instructions based on images being learn by the computer, if a situation isn't encountered before, it won't have a solution. The car simply won't know what to do. To do complete self driving, the car will need to have it's own A.I., based on neural network and quantum computing, that can come to it's own solution by itself, with decision guidelines based on human decisions. Not preprogrammed commands. That way, a neighbouring car will be considered a car that might make it's own decisions instead of just another object that Tesla is trying to keep track of.

    We are at least 10-20 years away. But I do believe the progress will be made very soon.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Do check out how the tesla AI is taught.  There are some misconceptions you are not aware of. 
    I don’t think Lidar is needed. They already have so much image processing power that soon a foggy keyhole will do.  Again, check out the massive computing power they are throwing at the image processors. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Does the Tesla warranty include termite infestation damage?

    Tesla Model Y Owners Find Cooling System Cobbled Together With Home Depot-Grade Fake Wood

    The world's most valuable automaker, ladies and gentlemen.

    via Tesla Motors Club | Brown1428

    Tesla is known for quickly adapting to changing environments. From setting up shop in a tent to increase production output to reducing design complexityto maximize profits—success requires the ability to juke around obstacles at a moment's notice. However, not all of these changes are carefully executed, as a recent thread on the Tesla Motors Club forum shows. According to several owners of the all-new Model Y, Tesla has allegedly assembled their cars using what appears to be faux wood trim from a home improvement store.

    It all started with a forum post featuring a photo of a Model Y's frunk plastics removed. The original poster of the thread had reportedly spent more than ten hours disassembling their Model Y to correct poor panel fitment when they came across a large chunk of metal secured with green tape and a small strap.


    "Someone made a run to Home Depot to make Q2 numbers," jested the thread's original poster.

    Shortly after, a few other posters chimed in with photos of the same part, showing more wood grain and a few plain white mounts as well.

    That part you're looking at is the Model Y's Liquid Cooled Condenser (LCC). Its job is essentially that of a heat exchanger, passing refrigerant through a large block where it transfers the thermal properties of the cryogen with other parts of the cooling system. This is just one small sliver of Tesla's unique octavalve cooling system found in the Model Y that is responsible for conditioning the car's cabin, battery, and drive unit simultaneously.

    The trim appears to be providing some strain relief for the strap holding the LCC in place, perhaps to keep the tension from providing unnecessary stress on the condenser during vibration or flexing, or to prevent any sharp corners from severing the strap itself. However, it's worth noting that Tesla didn't always use what appears to be akin to in-home molding in this application. In fact, several videos on YouTube show vehicles fitted with a clear plastic part in place of the trim.

    via YouTube | DAErik

    YouTuber DAErik shows off an early Model Y which does not feature wood trim.

    Interestingly, Tesla's own parts catalogdoesn't show the any such mounting solution found on the various Model Ys in the thread. It's not clear if the part simply isn't documented, or if it was a rapid fix that has remained in production for quite some time.

    Veteran auto manufacturing critic Sandy Munro previously looked over a car that contained the white trim option and it wasn't enough for him to criticize the automaker, so it's possible that the part is simply cheap and is working for the job. Still, Model Y owners are raising eyebrows and questioning how trim that appears to be from the shelf of a hardware store somehow ended up under the factory plastics of a $55,000 premium vehicle.

    Got a tip? Send us a note: tips@thedrive.com


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:

    Do check out how the tesla AI is taught.  There are some misconceptions you are not aware of. 
    I don’t think Lidar is needed. They already have so much image processing power that soon a foggy keyhole will do.  Again, check out the massive computing power they are throwing at the image processors. 

     

    Don't get caught up with the Tesla hype machine.

    It's just simple physics. One cannot derive 3D positioning with only 2D image. It's missing the 3rd dimension which Tesla is trying to supplement with radar signals. But radar will never have the same resolution as Lidar. Just physically not possible. You can only resolve something down the the length of a wave. 

    Tesla can throw all the computing power exist now and in the future and it still won't happen. No amount of processing power can up scale a 640x480 image to that of a 4K image. 

     

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    Do check out how the tesla AI is taught.  There are some misconceptions you are not aware of. 
    I don’t think Lidar is needed. They already have so much image processing power that soon a foggy keyhole will do.  Again, check out the massive computing power they are throwing at the image processors. 

     

    Don't get caught up with the Tesla hype machine.

    It's just simple physics. One cannot derive 3D positioning with only 2D image. It's missing the 3rd dimension which Tesla is trying to supplement with radar signals. But radar will never have the same resolution as Lidar. Just physically not possible. You can only resolve something down the the length of a wave. 

    Tesla can throw all the computing power exist now and in the future and it still won't happen. No amount of processing power can up scale a 640x480 image to that of a 4K image. 

    Smiley 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I’m sure you all know more about lidar and self driving than Tesla. But just incase you want to sound more informed watch the autonomy day presentation. Or better yet spend a day or two using the car. I repeat - it is a very handy and safe drivers aid at this point. No one else is even close. 
     

    However you are welcome to make random statements about the technology which are based on your limited information. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    Do check out how the tesla AI is taught.  There are some misconceptions you are not aware of. 
    I don’t think Lidar is needed. They already have so much image processing power that soon a foggy keyhole will do.  Again, check out the massive computing power they are throwing at the image processors. 

     

    Don't get caught up with the Tesla hype machine.

    Bit too late for that it seems... hook line and sinker indecision


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:

    I’m sure you all know more about lidar and self driving than Tesla. But just incase you want to sound more informed watch the autonomy day presentation. Or better yet spend a day or two using the car. I repeat - it is a very handy and safe drivers aid at this point. No one else is even close. 
     

    However you are welcome to make random statements about the technology which are based on your limited information. 

    Oh boy...do I seem like someone who isn't into tech and doesn't read a lot about new technologies. What the heck, even my iPad has Lidar. Smiley

    Btw: Do you actually know that the first Lidar system was used 51(!) years ago. Not exactly new technology and this is what I (and others) are talking about. We need completely new tech which doesn't exist (yet). It will exist at some point because many many are working on this tech but Lidar is "old" tech, believe it or not.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I know plenty about Lidar. Did not argue that it was not old or did not exist.  Elon thinks it is overkill.  Do I want to believe you after having watched his presentation and having driven the car or you?  Hmmm  Am I imagining my last road trip?  
     

    Besides you point has nothing to do with what I said  - which was that Tesla knows a bit more than all of us about what it will take to implement self driving at this point  

    Do watch the YouTube video presented to investors last year detailing some of the tech Tesla used. I think it was called autonomy day or something. Next one is battery day in a few weeks. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:

    I know plenty about Lidar. Did not argue that it was not old or did not exist.  Elon thinks it is overkill.  Do I want to believe you after having watched his presentation and having driven the car or you?  Hmmm  Am I imagining my last road trip?  
     

    Besides you point has nothing to do with what I said  - which was that Tesla knows a bit more than all of us about what it will take to implement self driving at this point  

    Do watch the YouTube video presented to investors last year detailing some of the tech Tesla used. I think it was called autonomy day or something. Next one is battery day in a few weeks. 

     

    He is not always right, first of all.

    Secondly, of course he would say that, why would he sink his own ship by saying his tech isn't good enoughSmiley

    It doesn't matter how rosy he can present his case, physics don't lie. can't be broken nor bend. Math is math.

    Enron made convincing presentations too before don't forget. 

    Tesla only knows how their own tech can perform, and how Elon wish it can perform and promise how it can perform. Doesn't mean what Elon wishes can happen. There might be one day when he can finally get it to work, but that day could be decades behind Lidar based system.

     

     

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    To be fair to EL0N, he has recently acknowledged that the current Autop!lot system has short-comings, so they are recruiting to try to build a NN training computer (“Dojo”) to help process the 2D images and have also been working on a fundamental re-write of the FSD software...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    CC73E489-69E5-48FB-873B-174450844F84.jpeg

    ...so in a year or so FSD may be able to do roundabouts...  CC728175-19EB-4A81-8294-9590C8A82363.gif

    B8C53478-347B-4E0F-958E-534F83FFC9DC.jpeg

    ...but if your car is new enough, you can make it beep like a goat... Smiley

    51B342EB-A407-4ACF-8A19-59EF6D0CD0B7.jpeg

    ...the current hardware and software package is de facto limited in what it can do... Smiley

    87D9EBDD-4BFF-4C5F-8C50-22B3111F7212.jpeg

    BF822CAF-50E5-4C47-9B23-F36F9B8F5A9C.gif


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    In other words, thank you for the free $8,000.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    That thread is funny, people are so easily manipulated, they gobble all that BS without blinking...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    A year ago I never used AP in my Model S, because it would have killed me within 10min. Over that one year Tesla made enormous progress. One still has to be prepared for unforeseen events, but overall driving with AP is way more relaxed than without. This is esp true for driving on the autobahn and  (to some lesser extend) also true for driving on country roads. Still, fully autonomous driving will remain a wet dream for a long long time


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Level 2/3 will improve rapidly in the next years,  level 5? not in decades.

    What is funny is that by the time fully autonomous driving is achieved, the cars of those that pre-paid for FSD will have been scrapped and recycled many years prior.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:

    A year ago I never used AP in my Model S, because it would have killed me within 10min. Over that one year Tesla made enormous progress. One still has to be prepared for unforeseen events, but overall driving with AP is way more relaxed than without. This is esp true for driving on the autobahn and  (to some lesser extend) also true for driving on country roads. Still, fully autonomous driving will remain a wet dream for a long long time

    Exactly this. Imagine crossing Kansas with a strong north wind. 



    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
     

    A dog is chasing a cat. Human eyes can see the dog running from the left driveway heading toward the road, autopilot can't, it can only see the dog when it reaches the road and gets into it's field of view before reacting to the incident. Same with children, football, whatever. 

    When my father was teaching me how to drive he told me: If you ever see a ball on the road stop immediately, chances are a child is coming after it. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Check the first 5 seconds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAo7IsZngDo


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Topspeed:

    Check the first 5 seconds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAo7IsZngDo

    Looks like the Volvo would have hit the deer. It is also slow. Frankly it is fugly too. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Highly subjective but I would say 99 out of 100 people would say the Volvo, while its not a looker, is still better looking that the Tesla. The Tesla looks bland, not very masculine and outdated IMO. Like a Peugeot for commuter moms.  I'm not going to comment on the interior comparison as there is not even a contest there.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Ken Block driving a computer on dry ice ... which reminds me of a question I was thinking about recently. The two guys are sitting in 6 points without HANS. Does anyone think, that this is rather dangerous ?
     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Enmanuel:
    Whoopsy:
     

    A dog is chasing a cat. Human eyes can see the dog running from the left driveway heading toward the road, autopilot can't, it can only see the dog when it reaches the road and gets into it's field of view before reacting to the incident. Same with children, football, whatever. 

    When my father was teaching me how to drive he told me: If you ever see a ball on the road stop immediately, chances are a child is coming after it. 

     

    Try teaching that to a Tesla Smiley


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    Enmanuel:
    Whoopsy:
     

    A dog is chasing a cat. Human eyes can see the dog running from the left driveway heading toward the road, autopilot can't, it can only see the dog when it reaches the road and gets into it's field of view before reacting to the incident. Same with children, football, whatever. 

    When my father was teaching me how to drive he told me: If you ever see a ball on the road stop immediately, chances are a child is coming after it. 

     

    Try teaching that to a Tesla Smiley

    Why is that so funny?  I’m certain it already knows this.  
    also, why is the concept of drivers aid so difficult to comprehend?  It adds to safety. Why would you want less safety and rely on just the human?  This thread will be awesome in a year or two. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:
    Whoopsy:
    Enmanuel:
    Whoopsy:
     

    A dog is chasing a cat. Human eyes can see the dog running from the left driveway heading toward the road, autopilot can't, it can only see the dog when it reaches the road and gets into it's field of view before reacting to the incident. Same with children, football, whatever. 

    When my father was teaching me how to drive he told me: If you ever see a ball on the road stop immediately, chances are a child is coming after it. 

     

    Try teaching that to a Tesla Smiley

    Why is that so funny?  I’m certain it already knows this.  
    also, why is the concept of drivers aid so difficult to comprehend?  It adds to safety. Why would you want less safety and rely on just the human?  This thread will be awesome in a year or two. 

     

    The 'driver aid' wasn't marketed as such nor labelled properly as such. Aid.

    Tesla drivers simply blindly trust the system without doubt, even when the car itself tells them to pay attention. All those warnings inside the car are just offloading the legal liability to the driver.

    But the drivers all 'trust' Elon, whatever he says is the gold standard. he called it 'Autopilot' and the mob simply take that as what it is. Autopilot, good for replacing human driving.

     

     


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