CloseApr 18, 2018 12:55:58 PM
German premium automakers set sales records in 2017, but tiny Tesla is eating the Germans’ lunch...
Apr 18, 2018 1:28:35 PM
Eating German lunch in the most profitable segment nonetheless... Tesla is THE car to have vs class S A8 and 7 series (these BMW are non existant on the road these days). It is cool, modern, fresh and environment friendly, plus it can use the HOV lanes... Why some people here cannot understand baffles me. It is a FACT that people like it and that’s why they sell better than the Germans despite a high price and inferior interior. It also shows you that many people don’t mind as much the interior quality vs the EV functionality. Can’t wait to see the German EVs and especially their price bracket in a couple of years.
Not only so far they have had no problem raising money but they have 500,000 applicants to work there...
Apr 18, 2018 1:57:59 PM
noone1:Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.
The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol
Mercedes sold 70,000 S-Class vehicles last year and when the GLS is added to the total, Mercedes still outsold Tesla in the global sales race. Cherry picking to very specific regions is meaningless.
Apr 18, 2018 2:02:24 PM
SciFrog:Eating German lunch in the most profitable segment nonetheless... Tesla is THE car to have vs class S A8 and 7 series (these BMW are non existant on the road these days). It is cool, modern, fresh and environment friendly, plus it can use the HOV lanes... Why some people here cannot understand baffles me. It is a FACT that people like it and that’s why they sell better than the Germans despite a high price and inferior interior. It also shows you that many people don’t mind as much the interior quality vs the EV functionality. Can’t wait to see the German EVs and especially their price bracket in a couple of years.
Not only so far they have had no problem raising money but they have 500,000 applicants to work there...
Don’t equate your and your friends like as being the same for everyone else. There’s a big leap from a relatively small devotee group to the mass market. See for example, Geoffery Moore’s “Crossing the Chasm” written about twenty years ago. It should be required reading for any tech executive. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
Apr 18, 2018 2:02:34 PM
USA is not big enough a “region” for you? 
Tesla roots are in the USA and their charger network is developed here first. Plus the high price tag of the cars severely kill the sales in many countries, like France or Spain for example. Until Tesla has a bigger lineup, it is totally fair to only look at the markets they actually can sell cars...
noone1:Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.
The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol
Price, performance, feature wise Tesla Model S is a 5 series, E-class, A6 class car, the main stream mass market premium car.
I have yet to find someone who cross shop S-class with Model S, but plenty did when they look at E-classes.
A modern Camry has almost eh same roominess too with a S-class, do you know anyone that cross shop between a S-class and a Camry?
EPA classify a Model S as a full size car like the S-clsas means nothing as Tesla has a bigger trunk and EPA add those dimension to their calculation.
Ha. Your statements are contradictory!
First you say a Model S is comparable to an E/5/6 and thus it can't be cross-shopped with an S-Class because of it, then you say a Camry is in the same segment as an S-Class in terms of use, but yet it isn't cross-shopped.
The fact is that people are dropping $80-100K on a roomy sedan. And actually, the Tesla is more luxury than any of those because Autopilot is still a more luxurious feature than anything those offer short of having a private driver.
“Car nut”, you seem to have a lot of insight in the industry in general and probably a stronger opinion that most here. But you seem to have “too much” of an insight not to have an agenda clearly tainting your arguments. You say you work in finance so clearly so real money is on the table somewhere.
Most here have no agenda. Lukestern is just an owner, RC is just a very powerful vehicles afficionado, Nick is just a customer, I am just an admirer of what Musk has done...
noone1:Ha. Your statements are contradictory!
First you say a Model S is comparable to an E/5/6 and thus it can't be cross-shopped with an S-Class because of it, then you say a Camry is in the same segment as an S-Class in terms of use, but yet it isn't cross-shopped.The fact is that people are dropping $80-100K on a roomy sedan. And actually, the Tesla is more luxury than any of those because Autopilot is still a more luxurious feature than anything those offer short of having a private driver.
You think? perhaps you should re-read what you wrote?
You are doing exactly the same comparing Model S with S-clsas, I am just expanding your words to include a Camry.
If you want to dish out criticisms, you should be prepared to accept the exact criticism in return.
noone1:Ha. Your statements are contradictory!
First you say a Model S is comparable to an E/5/6 and thus it can't be cross-shopped with an S-Class because of it, then you say a Camry is in the same segment as an S-Class in terms of use, but yet it isn't cross-shopped.The fact is that people are dropping $80-100K on a roomy sedan. And actually, the Tesla is more luxury than any of those because Autopilot is still a more luxurious feature than anything those offer short of having a private driver.
The cross shopping is in the price segment, not in the size of the car. Nick is right, people will look at E class/5 series for $75k vs a $100k Tesla and many will end up with the Tesla, and that’s why Tesla is the leader in the highest tier of luxury cars...
And that’s also why the Germans have a BIG problem. Either E class EV will be priced same as regular E class and will destroy petrol E class sales (same with Porsche and rumored Mission E), or they will price a E class EV at S class prices but many will shout the interior or the space/confort is not good enough...
No, Nick is wrong because he's saying a Model S sales can''t be compared with an S-Class, which is untrue. First people pick a segment -- SUV, sedan, convertible, 2 seats, 4 seats, 8 seats -- then they select their budget. An S-Class is a 4 seater sedan, just like a Model S. The prices can be similar.
The S-Class is not really much different than a Model S in terms of what it is. Like most luxury cars, the backseats are usually empty because the average age is high enough that kids are long since too old to be riding in the back seat, even if the back seat is a little bigger in an S-Class than a Model S.
Tesla is the leader in whatever segment it is in is because many buyers don't care about how a car drives. They would care about the tech and about it being green, not even about the luxuries.
The 5 series and E class have become too similar to other cars in the segment, Tesla on the other hand stands out and gives them advantages such as driving in HOV lanes, getting Tax credit or discounts, and gas savings. In addition, the 8 year/unlimited miles warranty on the battery is great. Hence, those who can pay the extra $$$ do end up with the tesla.
The S class would not be commonly cross-shopped with an S-class because most S-class buyers are being chauffeured in them.
AP911:Tesla is the leader in whatever segment it is in is because many buyers don't care about how a car drives. They would care about the tech and about it being green, not even about the luxuries.
Thank you - you took the words out of my mouth. Forget one's views on Musk and his over promising and overvaluation of his stock. The issue we have on a sports car forum is that the cars are priced way too high for their build quality, appalling handling, and numb steering.
Newsflash: 95% of the population doesn’t care how a car drives... All cars drive good enough these days... When was the last time you heard someone at a normal car dealer asking how the car drives? People ask about confort, features, fuel economy and price...
And if you think most S class/A8 buyers are being driven (in the USA), you are very very wrong...
crayphile:AP911:Tesla is the leader in whatever segment it is in is because many buyers don't care about how a car drives. They would care about the tech and about it being green, not even about the luxuries.
Thank you - you took the words out of my mouth. Forget one's views on Musk and his over promising and overvaluation of his stock. The issue we have on a sports car forum is that the cars are priced way too high for their build quality, appalling handling, and numb steering.
Don't you have classic, multi-million dollar cars that don't exactly drive well?
SciFrog:And if you think most S class/A8 buyers are being driven (in the USA), you are very very wrong...
Yeah, never seen this in the US outside of maybe Washington DC or a straight up taxi. The average driver of those cars are middle-aged to older men, and they are often the only ones in the car.
I'd rather be driven in a Rav4 than a Phantom. Phantom is way too "look at me". I would feel dumb getting out of the backseat of a Phantom. I mean, I'm just some random guy, not the Queen of England.
I would never buy a Phantom to drive either. It's gaudy.
If you want to be driven around in ultimate luxury, you should just buy a luxury van. 10x more comfortable and nice than a Rolls Royce.
Apr 18, 2018 2:36:09 PM
SciFrog:USA is not big enough a “region” for you?
Tesla roots are in the USA and their charger network is developed here first. Plus the high price tag of the cars severely kill the sales in many countries, like France or Spain for example. Until Tesla has a bigger lineup, it is totally fair to only look at the markets they actually can sell cars...
China is at 30 million SAAR and growing whilst the States are a stagnant 17 million SAAR. Therefore, the U.S. market pales in comparison and is roughly equivalent to the EU market.
The real question is should Musk try to create a modern day Ford in a highly competitive and ruthlessly efficient industry or should the plan be to remain a niche player striving toward profitability. Musk instead tries for world domination using his “first principles” -really smoke and mirrors-to raise capital that still falls woefully short of levels for the required CapEx to meet the goal.
While a few here are fixated on comparing Tesla to the German Three, Musk’s real target has been Henry Ford and mass production. Musk thinks he brings insight but it’s only his arrogance. Automaking is a difficult and relatively low volume industry with little of the increasing returns-see W. Brian Arthur’s works-found in Tech. Ford remains the leading, and most profitable maker of premium vehicles, as defined by price above $50,000, yet its market cap trails Tesla.
Apr 18, 2018 2:42:08 PM
One step at a time... Ford exists for almost 100 years, Tesla for 10 and when they started every “expert” in the industry said they would fail... What are the odds that the SAME people who were wrong would now say that they have a chance to succeed? 
Too much skin in the game...
And to be clear, I have no insight if Musk will succeed or not, but I think he does have a chance at least...
Apr 18, 2018 2:43:13 PM
CGX car nut:SciFrog:USA is not big enough a “region” for you?
Tesla roots are in the USA and their charger network is developed here first. Plus the high price tag of the cars severely kill the sales in many countries, like France or Spain for example. Until Tesla has a bigger lineup, it is totally fair to only look at the markets they actually can sell cars...
China is at 30 million SAAR and growing whilst the States are a stagnant 17 million SAAR. Therefore, the U.S. market pales in comparison and is roughly equivalent to the EU market.
The real question is should Musk try to create a modern day Ford in a highly competitive and ruthlessly efficient industry or should the plan be to remain a niche player striving toward profitability. Musk instead tries for world domination using his “first principles” -really smoke and mirrors-to raise capital that still falls woefully short of levels for the required CapEx to meet the goal.
While a few here are fixated on comparing Tesla to the German Three, Musk’s real target has been Henry Ford and mass production. Musk thinks he brings insight but it’s only his arrogance. Automaking is a difficult and relatively low volume industry with little of the increasing returns-see W. Brian Arthur’s works-found in Tech. Ford remains the leading, and most profitable maker of premium vehicles, as defined by price above $50,000, yet its market cap trails Tesla.
Yes Musk should try to create the next Ford because traditional automakers show they don't give a shit about progress. All they do is petition to get emissions and MPG requirements lowered and sell the shittiest product they can for the longest time possible. VAG decided to do something very illegal rather than just try to do it right with their diesels.
Look no further than infotainment systems vs smartphones for evidence of how terrible the old guard is at moving technology forward. When is Mercedes going to adopt over the air updates just like my phone? Is $100K not enough money to do that?
And unsurprisingly, the leader in autonomous driving is probably Google, not the car makers.
Musk is right to go for a homerun rather than a single.
Apr 18, 2018 3:06:38 PM
noone1:CGX car nut:SciFrog:USA is not big enough a “region” for you?
Tesla roots are in the USA and their charger network is developed here first. Plus the high price tag of the cars severely kill the sales in many countries, like France or Spain for example. Until Tesla has a bigger lineup, it is totally fair to only look at the markets they actually can sell cars...
China is at 30 million SAAR and growing whilst the States are a stagnant 17 million SAAR. Therefore, the U.S. market pales in comparison and is roughly equivalent to the EU market.
The real question is should Musk try to create a modern day Ford in a highly competitive and ruthlessly efficient industry or should the plan be to remain a niche player striving toward profitability. Musk instead tries for world domination using his “first principles” -really smoke and mirrors-to raise capital that still falls woefully short of levels for the required CapEx to meet the goal.
While a few here are fixated on comparing Tesla to the German Three, Musk’s real target has been Henry Ford and mass production. Musk thinks he brings insight but it’s only his arrogance. Automaking is a difficult and relatively low volume industry with little of the increasing returns-see W. Brian Arthur’s works-found in Tech. Ford remains the leading, and most profitable maker of premium vehicles, as defined by price above $50,000, yet its market cap trails Tesla.
Yes Musk should try to create the next Ford because traditional automakers show they don't give a shit about progress. All they do is petition to get emissions and MPG requirements lowered and sell the shittiest product they can for the longest time possible. VAG decided to do something very illegal rather than just try to do it right with their diesels.
Look no further than infotainment systems vs smartphones for evidence of how terrible the old guard is at moving technology forward. When is Mercedes going to adopt over the air updates just like my phone? Is $100K not enough money to do that?
And unsurprisingly, the leader in autonomous driving is probably Google, not the car makers.Musk is right to go for a homerun rather than a single.
Spend a bit more time ruminating before posting. Read about Henry Ford and the Rouge River plant. There are many parallels.
The auto industry is risk adverse for a reason: litigation. Takata and Dieselgate demonstrate the enormous costs involved when scaled up across tens of millions of units. Automobiles must have reliable and safe mission critical systems since lives depend on those functions; smartphones or most other tech products have lower design thresholds. As a consequence, can adopt a more liberal and agressive functionalities. A smartphone has not more than a two year design and development cycle while a car has upwards a six year cycle. The car also remains on the market longer and is a major capital expense for its owner so obsolescence should be programmed in a one year cycle like an Apple iPhone. The industry isn’t perfect but there are tens of thousands of diligent, smart, and industrious individuals working in it
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