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    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    blah, blah - so far I have not heard ONE good reason to buy N rated tires other than Porsche recommends them.  Have you looked at the specs or tried them?  NO.  Are they going to magically fall apart at speed (only LONG after the N rated tires do)?  Are they going to make my car handle worse on the street - only if I am driving at 100% on the street!  Rather than spend money blindly - try them.  If you think you are frustrated by my sensible advice and comments imagine how I feel when people 'Bla Bla' me when they have no idea what they are talking about. 

    In this case, or in cold weather, or in snow - the DWS are superior tires.  I have tried BOTH and have owned many sets of N rated tires.  I know of what I speak.  How many miles have you put on 911s with either set of tires? 


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Try selling a 911 without N rated tyres in the UK. UK Porsche dealers will deduct the price of a set of N rated tyres from the price they offer since they are required to fit N spec tyres to the approved used cars they re-sell.

    That's just one good reason.

    Yes, I have looked at the specs. I checked when I last changed my own tyres.

    You may drive only on public roads but other people drive their cars on the track where maximising grip is important. All season tyres do not offer the same level of grip at the limit as max performance summer tyres.

    And the last time I changed my tyres, there was no material price difference between the N spec and non N spec versions of the Michelin PS2 Pilot Sport tyres fitted to my car.

    I don't spend money blindly so you're making a wrong assumption there. And I don't find your advice sensible for my needs. You are simply justifying the compromise that suits your needs and your pocket. Other people do not have to agree with you.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    I suggest you don't sell your car to a Porsche dealer ever and expect a reasonable price.  The fact that you let them discount the price for a set of new tires is your issue to deal with and really has nothing to do with tire performance.  If you had not spent so much on N tires over the life of the car this would not be an issue anyway.  A private individual test driving the car with new DWS Contis on it would LOVE them and would likely replace them with more DWS when the time came.   They are that good!

    For me, using Tire Rack prices the N rated Michelins are about twice as expensive (almost exactly).  The wear rating is 540 vs. 220 so they last more than twice as long as well.  That means that the real cost is 1/4 as much or less!  I would have to spend more than 4x as much for 'N' tires.  For someone like me who drives routinely 1500 miles in one day straight down the highway at no more than 80 mph it would be nuts to by a set of N rated tires.  I used to buy them every year and even then I would be on the cords by the time I replaced them.  That is not safe and also expensive.  They also are not useable when the weather is too cold.

    I don't see how your think they cost the same.  In terms of grip - to exploit the extra grip you would have to be on a track going at more than 9/10s.  Even so I doubt your S could keep up with my S and the PPS9 suspension I have on the track, even with my DWS.

    the DWS are a very modern tire with excellent charateristics in terms of wear, grip, noise and safety.  They do not magically fail or fall apart.  I know you disagree and I respect that but someday you will try them and like them!  They are an excellent choice for the type of driving I do, which I suspect is not that different from what you do in the cold and wet UK.

    So, the only reason I can see to have the N tires is on the Track for ultimate grip.  On the street the DWS will be safer for more conditions and far more durable. - again only 25% of the cost!

    Cheers

     


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    1) N rated tires and basically the same price as non-N rated tire, few € up or down, so the only reasons to get non-N rated tires are:

          a) you want to put a cheap set tires on a 911 sportcar , which aren't even considered for N-rating, in which case there is no sense in discussing further anything about tires...

          b) you want to use a new tire that has no N-rated version for the 911, in which case the result is unknown on a 911 and you risk finding out in an emergency situation (when it matters like obstacle avoidance, wet patch, emergency braking, etc - not when crusing), it may work OK and it may not. We have al experienced the difference perfomance of same model tires on one sportcar compared to another sportcar. Maybe on a track car or ocasional use car for example its OK, but not on a daily driver...

    2) I doubt anyone here has the knowledge AND actual test data to be able to say that Porsche's tire testing, modification/adaptation and approval for use on their specific vehicles N-rating system does not make a difference performance but especially in safety in extreme situations we may encounter in real world driving. Personally, if there is one thing I don't gamble is with safety, and disregarding the N-rating system w/o knowledge/data is gambling. Speaking from paper specs and/or limited personal experience is speaking out of one's "arse" Smiley 10

    Like I said, the importance of tires (aside from performance obviously) comes into play not when crusing around but when you really need them like trying to avoid an accident, or not cause one. 

     

    Depending on which you choose you can make either one mistake or the other:
    1) choose a N-rating tire and never be in a situation were you need the tires to perform to the fullest. In the case that they were more  expensive than a cheap set of tires, you wasted the difference in money.
    2) choose a non N-rating version of a N-rated tire or even worse, a cheap set of tires that aren't even considered for N-rating, and be in a situation were you need tires to perform to the fullest and they don't. In which case you may suffer an accident, posibly injuries you yourself and the occupants, maybe even the lives.
    I don't know about you guys but I rather make mistake #1 Smiley 30

    Just my 2 cents Smiley 4

     


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    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Exactly.

    And when I am driving on track, at one point I might be driving at 140mph then moments later I'm taking a high speed bend at high cornering loads at around 80 mph. Would I really trust a non N spec tyre that is not approved by Porsche? If other people want to take that risk, it's their choice. I am not taking that risk.

    And simply assuming that a non N spec tyre is as safe as a N spec tyre that is tested by Porsche (without having the data to compare them) is an assumption I am not willing to make ... especially where my safety depends on it.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    throt:

    Glad your 10 sec white knuckle ride ended good, John....

    Did the Mrs put you on the naughty boy step,,,,,, again... surprise indecision...

    Thanks Keith - I seem to be spending more time on that step the older I get...Smiley

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    You guys - Conti makes N rated tires for the 911.  The fact is they likely made these the exact size and spec required for a good reason - Porsche does not have an 'N' rated All-Season tire.  That is the tire I need for my driving,  Handling and ultimate grip is relative - in cold, ice and wet my DWS are MUCH safer so it is silly to argue I am taking a chance when you should not even be on the road - if you followed the temp ratings.  Like I said, in perfect conditions you should never be in a situation on the road where you would need the extra tire.  In poor conditions my DWS will eat your summer tire for lunch.

    I can't believe that on the one hand no one can see the fact that the Conti DWS are 1/2 the price (saying they somehow cost the same) and on the other hand you label them as CHEAP - too funny.  They are inexpensive and made in the same hi-tech way the N rated tires are made.  They are not made by some fly by night outfit.  They make many more of these tires and likely can spend a lot more on R&D than on the 'N' rated low volume tires.

    In the end you can certainly appreciate that the cost to make these tires is likely $20- $30 each (and Porsche gets them for about that price!) regardless of 'N' or not.  If you think the process of making them is somehow different or the materials are vastly superior you are diluting yourself.   Consider that when you are feeling good about your tires at 140MPH.  The fact is that in this day and age Conti or any big tire maker does not make dangerous tires.

    Lastly - the fact the you can't find or want to look for test data to compare does not make up for the fact that you have not tried these tires on a 911 'Sports Car'.   The 997 is just a CAR folks!  At the same time you run on those stock PASM shocks which last only about three years. Overspending on tires is not a requirement for a 997 - it is not a Lambo or Ferrari - it is a car people put high miles on and drive everyday!  It should be a fun car that you can use all the time.  If I take my car on the track I might go a bit slower but I would never worry that the tire would break or fail, that is silly.  The 'N' rated tire would last half as long OR Less - so which one would fail first?

    Just my two cents.  I think I have good reasons for my choice.

     


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Leawood, I would maybe accept your argument IF you only used those tires in those severe conditions, and interchange them with real "sportcar" tires, i.e. performance tires as soon as the conditions are no longer severe, otherwise your argument is no longer valid, neither performance nor safety wise.

    And even then, if you live in a place were there are such weather conditions, I would use  proper N-rated winter tires in the winter, and N-rated summer/performance tires in the summer like everybody does. Using a un-rated mixed winter-summer tire is "maybe" OK for a commuter car which is used as merely transport for slow commutes but not on a sportcar like a 911.

    And finally, there is no "miracle" tire that does everything better than the others and for half the price; you get what you pay for...


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    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Carlos from Spain:

    And finally, there is no "miracle" tire that does everything better than the others and for half the price; you get what you pay for...


    That´s what I keep wondering about. I would give the freedom of doubt until I have tried them myself but any all-season tire I have tried so far had some severe shortcomings. Just recently I had the highly praised Goodyear all-season tires on a rental car that I used for five consecutive weeks. The tires themselves were fine given their capabilities in different weather conditions but grip was a. still lower than a proper summer tire´s, b. the handling on the limit was more demanding in the wet and c. I figured that their longevity is still much lower than comparable summer tires. 

    The subject is somewhat different on the 997 since the regular Michelin Pilot Sport are not famous for their longevity as well. So I remain a bit puzzled how Leawood can extract that much more miles out of his all-season tires than out of the "correct" N-spec summer tires he had used before.


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    John H:

    When the car finally stabilised, I became aware of a 'river' of water, from the rainfall, rushing down the hill I was driving up.  I guess this, together with my sudden acceleration, was the reason for the rear end breakaway... probably causing an aqua-planing situation.  I wasn't aware of any intervention from the PSM. 

    Anyone else had a similar experience? Smiley


    John,

    first of all good to hear that it turned out fine. I am actually surprised that you´ve never experienced such a situation before. Guess it doesn´t rain enough in the UK. Smiley

    Hydroplaning is one of the most challenging things to experience in any car, especially in a sportscar with a lot of weight in the back. Given your personal history of cars, I would´ve expected you to come across something like this before.

    Regarding the PSM intervention, did you experience the loss of stability only on the rear or also at the front? If it occurs  on both axles, the PSM system might either not sense your dilemma since you are drifting off your intended path with all four wheels or it just didn´t have the ability to assist should the front wheels be affected as well. Anyways, the PSM threshold is raised in Sport or Sport Plus mode.


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Leawood911:

    [...]  Wet race anyone?

    Any time! Smiley


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Ferdie:
    Carlos from Spain:

    And finally, there is no "miracle" tire that does everything better than the others and for half the price; you get what you pay for...

    The subject is somewhat different on the 997 since the regular Michelin Pilot Sport are not famous for their longevity as well. So I remain a bit puzzled how Leawood can extract that much more miles out of his all-season tires than out of the "correct" N-spec summer tires he had used before.

    Ferdie -

    The wear rating on the Conti DWS has a wear rating of 540 vs 220 for the N2 Michelin - you do the math and include that in the cost and also the safety aspect.  (Half the cost and more than double the wear rating!)  They are also very quiet on the highway for thousands of miles!

    Carlos - It is far less than half the price and having tried BOTH I am very happy - sometimes you can pay more and get less.  What do you think the cost of each tire is to manufacture?  Which do you think has had more testing miles and engineering?  The low volume Michelin or the DWS?  Change tires when it is dry and warm?  You are missing the point that these are NOT ordinary All-season tires.  Not at all.  Maybe it is a language barrier - these are high performance tires which work in the cold and wet better - not hard to understand.  No 295/30/19 tires is going to be a NORMAL tire - in that size everything is high performance - in this case Ultra High performance.  Else it would not have the same speed rating as the N tire.

    First let me point out that I am talking about very special All Season tires - NOT LIKE WHAT YOU GET IN A RENTAL CAR (what was the speed rating of those tires?), lol.  They work very well in warm weather on the track and also in very cold and wet.  Until you try them you really can't compare them to All season tires you have used in Passenger cars.  In the dry and warm they give up very little to the N tires.  Very little.

    The fact that they are the same exact size, speed rating, load rating etc. as the N1 tires should give you some idea they are not your average all season tire.  They also weigh one pound less per tire.  I would be willing to bet that since these are mass produced more money was spent on R&D and testing for these tires than any of the N1 tires.  I am amused that all of you feel safer by overspending but less me assure you I am not taking any chances by using these.

    It is also funny that you buy into N spec Winter tires but at the same time do not question why there is NO N spec All season Ultra high performance tire.Smiley

    Again - These are rated as Ultra High Performance All-Season tires  - NOT every All-Season tire is the same - these are very special.

    From Conti - a brief summary

    ExtremeContact DWS features an advanced silica-based, high-grip, all-season tread compound molded into a unique asymmetrical tread design with stable shoulder blocks and a continuous, notched intermediate rib on the outboard side to enhance responsiveness and cornering stability. The center of the tread features independent blocks separated by high-angle, crisscross grooves to provide the biting edges necessary to deliver wet road and light snow traction while independent inboard shoulder blocks help disperse water to further enhance hydroplaning resistance and foul weather traction.

    The ExtremeContact DWS features Tuned Performance Indicators — visible letters molded into the second rib from the outboard shoulder to alert drivers of the tire's performance levels. A visible "DWS" indicates the tire has sufficient tread depth for dry conditions, as well as wet roads and light snow. After the "S" has worn away, the remaining "DW" indicates the tire only has sufficient tread depth for dry and most wet road conditions. And after the "W" and "S" have both worn away, the remaining "D" indicates the tire has appropriate tread depth for dry conditions only.

    The tire's internal structure includes twin steel belts reinforced with spirally wound jointless nylon cap plies to provide long-term integrity under high-speed conditions while reducing weight and helping to provide more uniform ride quality.

    El neumático ExtremeContact DWS (Dry, Wet y Snow: seco, mojado y nieve) de Continental pertenece a la categoría: Ultra Alto Rendimiento Para Toda Estación y fue desarrollado para conductores de autos deportivos, cupé deportivo, sedán de rendimiento y camiones ligeros deportivos. El ExtremeContact DWS ha sido diseñado para satisfacer la necesidad que tienen los conductores, durante todas las estaciones del año, al combinar el rendimiento sobre superficies secas y mojadas, con tracción sobre poca nieve y aguanieve.

    El ExtremeContact DWS (Dry, Wet y Snow: seco, mojado y nieve) posee una mezcla de caucho basada en sílice de gran agarre para su uso durante todas las temporadas del año. Esta mezcla es moldeada en una banda de rodamiento asimétrica con bloques o tacos estables en los hombros y un segmento intermedio cóncavo continuo en la parte de afuera (opuesta al motor), que mejora la respuesta y la estabilidad al tomar curvas. El centro de la banda de rodamiento posee bloques independientes separados por ángulos abiertos, además, ranuras que se cruzan proveen la “mordida” necesaria para proporcionar tracción sobre superficies mojadas y con poca nieve. Bloques independientes en el hombro interno (cerca del motor), ayudan a dispersar el agua y así mejoran la resistencia al deslizamiento en agua (hydroplaning) y la tracción en condiciones climatológicas difíciles.

    El ExtremeContact DWS, posee indicadores Tuned Performmance , estos, son letras moldeadas en el segundo segmento de la parte exterior del hombro, para alertar al conductor los niveles de rendimiento del neumático. Una marca visible con las letras DWS indica que el neumático tienen suficiente profundidad para su uso sobre superficies secas, mojadas y con poca nieve. Luego de que la letra “S” se desgasta las letras “DW” indican que el neumático solamente posee un profundidad para trabajar óptimamente sobre superficies secas y la mayoría de superficies mojadas. Y cuando se desgasta, la letra “W” la letra restante “D”, indica que la profundidad de la banda solo es apropiada sobre superficies secas.

    La estructura interna del neumático incluye correas gemelas de acero reforzadas con capas sin unión de nailon envuelto en espiral, para proporcionar una integridad a largo plazo bajo velocidades elevadas, al mismo tiempo de reducir peso y proporcionar un andar más uniforme.


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Leawood911:

    Ferdie -

    The wear rating on the Conti DWS has a wear rating of 540 vs 220 for the N2 Michelin

    Leawood, let me point out that you cannot compare the wear rating across different manufacturers as each manufacturer has their own particular scale, it is not a standard industry rating. You can only use the wear rating when comparing different models of the same manufacturer.

    Carlos -  You are missing the point that these are NOT ordinary All-season tires.  Not at all.  Maybe it is a language barrier - these are high performance tires which work in the cold and wet better - not hard to understand. 

    Again - These are rated as Ultra High Performance All-Season tires  - NOT every All-Season tire is the same - these are very special.

     

    So its a "special" tire, only they and no one else found a formula that, is a as good as high perf summer tire in the summer and as good as a proper winter tire in the winter, and it lasts twice as much as both while at it, and they sell it not for a premium but for half the price tooSmiley 19 ... I'm just very cautious with these sort of claims, in the end you get what you pay for... it may be OK for a commute cruising down the road, but when you really need the tires like when having in sportive driving fun or avoiding an accident situation, I personally would never what these tires on my car. Its just my opinion.

    It is also funny that you buy into N spec Winter tires but at the same time do not question why there is NO N spec All season Ultra high performance tire.Smiley

    Maybe because All season tires while OK for a commuter utility car but are neither good enough for a 911 in the summer nor in the winter? or any other sportcar in the same performance range for tha matter...

    It may be significantly cheaper to run these "non-approved" tires all year around, I don't deny that and thats your choice, but you have to accept that there is a price to pay in other aspects that other may not be willing to accept and compromise with. To each his own Smiley 4

     


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    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Carlos - I appreciate your input.  In fact I will be in Soto Grande for a few weeks comming up!  Excited to be back in Spain in 19 days!

    These are not your average All Season tires - trust me.  They do work well and are essentially sport tires with better temperature ratings and more tread.  Consider the size and speed rating - and in the US the wear rating is compareable - consider that Conti also makes N spec tires so these are not Cheap tires at all - they are just mass produced. 

    Just wish you guys would try my car out and see that there is not that much difference and I am certainly not taking any chances. (I give up on you trying them on your car) I am as a big a 911 nut as anyone here - but it is still just a car for the street.  Maybe if I had a GT3, then I certainly would have the N tires.  How is that?

     


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Enjoy your vacation!! hopefully you will have good weather wink

    You seem happy with the tires but I just wanted to say that spending extra for real summer high performance tires are not a waste of money on these sportcars, and in that case choosing the N-rated version has no disadvantages since the price is more or less the same than the same model non-N. To each his own kissSmiley


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    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    ...Your PSM must have been engaged, but it cannot do magic  Especially in Sport mode where it allows some slip and expects you to handle it. ...

    I hit water coming out of a turn once and the back end broke loose. I swear that the PSM angels took over because in an instance, the car was straight again.  Most scary time ever in a Porsche.


    --
    Porsche owner since 1975.

    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    I am not convinced by the argument, that more expensive is always better, or you always get what you pay for..

    Economies of scale and brand name, can make either a higher quality product cheaper, or a lower quality product more expensive respectively...

    If it works for you Leawood, good shout! kiss

     

     


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Someone once told me people underestimate dry grip ( panic braking in fast corners) and overestimate wet grip.

     


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    HeavyMetalThunder:

    Someone once told me people underestimate dry grip ( panic braking in fast corners) and overestimate wet grip.

    The former is frequently true and the latter generally true. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Carlos from Spain:

    So its a "special" tire, only they and no one else found a formula that, is a as good as high perf summer tire in the summer and as good as a proper winter tire in the winter, and it lasts twice as much as both while at it, and they sell it not for a premium but for half the price tooSmiley 19 ... I'm just very cautious with these sort of claims, in the end you get what you pay for... it may be OK for a commute cruising down the road, but when you really need the tires like when having in sportive driving fun or avoiding an accident situation, I personally would never what these tires on my car. Its just my opinion.


    Leawood,

    I share Carlos´ thoughts above. I am just not sure whether this particular tire can be that much better than anything else. As I´ve said, even the best all-season tires I have experienced exhibit certain drawbacks. Especially the longevity is usually reduced to incorporate both sufficient dry and wet grip. Developing tires in itself is a matter of very opposite demands and those are even further apart on all-season tires. That´s why I keep wondering how the tire can be that much better not only than other all-season but also model-specific high performance tires.

    I would honestly love to experience a set of these tires to form a personal opinion. Do you bring your car to Spain? Smiley


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Ferdie -

    For one thing - I have only based my opinion on thousands of miles behind a 911.  I have owned my 997 for six years and 6 911s prior to that going back 30+ years.  I have 100's of thousands of miles behind the wheel of 911s, been using them as a daily driver my entire life.

    Secondly - These specific tires do not wear like winter tires or typical All Season tires, which do wear quickly in warm weather.  They last more than twice as long as the soft N summer tires.  Think of them as sport tires which work in all weather.  They are listed as Ultra High performance tires for a reason.  Not like the All Season tires you put on your sedan or econo box at all.  Again, keep in mind the speed rating and size of these tires.  No one will mistake a 295/30/19  185+ mph tire for anything but a high performance tire.  My cost for a set of four is almost exactly HALF of the Michelin N2 rated Pilot sport and it includes Road hazard warranty for free (which I made use of a few months ago).  I don't understand why some here indicate that there is no cost savings.  I can buy two sets for the price of one and then use them for at least twice as long.  If the cost were the same and they did not last longer I would likely choose the N tires but they still would not be as quick in the wet and cold.

    Here in the US you can order a set of DWS tires for a 30 day test drive and if you don't like them you can return them for a full refund!  I doubt anyone will or has.  To try them is to love them.  On the street they give way just a bit sooner than the Pilot sports but they are very progressive and give great feedback.  In the wet you can stand on the gas from a dead stop and just go without wheel spin.  Very quick in the rain!  Very hard to hydroplane.

    I have a Lexus RX-400 I drive in Spain, I leave my 997 in the US.  I would love to drive a 911 in Europe while there.  I also have a home in Andorra - that would be the place - nice country mountain roads.  As long as I don't do a Kubica.

    Back to the Thread - My oldest daughter totalled her he new convertible Mustang a few years ago hydroplaning on the highway - she was an excellent driver and I thought I had given her plenty of warnings about the wet and heavy rain - it is something you must get a taste of personally - that little seat of the pants warning is hard to teach.  I enjoy wet weather and ice practice and get into those conditions on purpose to improve my car control. 

     

     


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Ferdie:
    Carlos from Spain:

    And finally, there is no "miracle" tire that does everything better than the others and for half the price; you get what you pay for...


    That´s what I keep wondering about. I would give the freedom of doubt until I have tried them myself but any all-season tire I have tried so far had some severe shortcomings. Just recently I had the highly praised Goodyear all-season tires on a rental car that I used for five consecutive weeks. The tires themselves were fine given their capabilities in different weather conditions but grip was a. still lower than a proper summer tire´s, b. the handling on the limit was more demanding in the wet and c. I figured that their longevity is still much lower than comparable summer tires. 

    The subject is somewhat different on the 997 since the regular Michelin Pilot Sport are not famous for their longevity as well. So I remain a bit puzzled how Leawood can extract that much more miles out of his all-season tires than out of the "correct" N-spec summer tires he had used before.

    I had some Goodyear all-season tires once. Worst thing I've ever seen in wet conditions. Truely rediculous.

     


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Gladstone - thanks for your input, I think.  Were these Goodyear tires Ultra High performance and were they mounted on a Porsche?

    It seems you are in a unique position.  You have personally driven and ridden in both 996 and 997 Porsches (for many years and 1000's of miles) fitted with these feared High Performance All-Season tires - in all types of conditions.  What say you? 

    Any obervations would be appreciated.   

     


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    The great communicator, clearly I am not.  I was merely responding to Ferdie's comment about the "highly praised Goodyear all-season tires" on his rental car as being most likely quite similar to the Goodyear tires which I owned for a short time. They were not Ultra High performance and were not mounted on a Porsche. They were in fact worse than a set of cheap a$$ Firestone tires I put on the car (it was a matter of convenience, for which I later paid dearly with the only hydroplaning accident in my lifetime)

     

    I will most likely never stray again from my prior habit of using only Michelin or Continental tires.

     

    I will step up and accept criticism for being the person who pointed out that you were spending more per mile on tires than on premium grade fuel at one time. This concept does not translate well into any European language where fuel is almost 3x US price and I figure tires to be less than 1.5x US price. (maybe less?)

     

    Also, while your Porsche’s have enjoyed 3,000 mile (4,800km) weekends, I don’t think there are too many European Porsches seeing that kind of usage. (More track time perhaps, but the distance?)

     

    As far as the handling of these tires, I vividly recall the final leg of a 1,400 mile return to home where apparently a couple of extreme high speed runs had left us without enough fuel to match the scheduled fuel stops. In other words there should not have been another fuel stop required if it had not been for someone going a bit faster than planned.

     

    You called it out “we need fuel” and I thought well of course considering the bit of fun you found on the interstate. After almost 20 hours in the car, I didn’t notice the engine no longer turning over.

     

    You brought the car up the exit ramp, made a left turn, crossed back over the highway and a left turn into the gas station with enough momentum to pull right up to the pump.

     

    That single 90 degree left at about 60mph (100kph) without any sign of a mere noise from the tires (while I was thrown against the passenger door) tells me that those tires do have some grip. 


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

     

    Hi Leawood,
     
    I'm thinking of getting the all season tires you recommended (Extreme Contact DWS) but i don't seem to find the 305/30 19 inches. Do you use the 305?
     
    Where did you order yours from?
     
    Thanks
    Paulo

    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    HeavyMetalThunder:

    I am not convinced by the argument, that more expensive is always better, or you always get what you pay for..

    Economies of scale and brand name, can make either a higher quality product cheaper, or a lower quality product more expensive respectively...

    If it works for you Leawood, good shout! kiss

    I'm afraid with tires, you always get what you pay for but thats not actually the point here: It is about how tires, tire material mixture(s), tread pattern design, etc., are designed. Every tire engineer will tell you that an all season tire is always a compromise. Always. I don't want to doubt Leawood's claims here but I also don't know him and I don't know how he drives. Personally, I always want the best possible tire for specific driving conditions. I do not like to make compromises. In summer, I drive a summer tire, in winter, I drive a winter tire. If Leawood really believes that an all season tire can be as good as a winter tire in winter, he is wrong. If he believes that an all season tire can be as good as a good summer tire, he is wrong again. Everything else, I leave to you guys to brag about. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    pCosta - I use the 295/30/19 on the rear. 

    Conti also makes N rated tires.  The DWS are simply are little more flexible and for street driving a good compromise AND a bargain!  Since Continental also makes N rated tires you can expect them to not have 'Accidentally' made these tires in these sizes.  NO tire in these sizes is an average all-season tire.  They are branded Ultra High Performance.  The have the exact dimensions and speed ratings as the N tires just much more treadwear and cold temperature capable (and they weigh less).  They are not the best snow tires nor the best track tires but can be used for either.  They are 100% safe to use and will last twice as long as any N rated tire at half the cost.  They are also safer in that they last longer and since they don't cost as much you are less likely to keep using them way past their tread life.  I paid around $850 for a set of four at the Tire Rack.  They include the road hazard waranty for free! 

    I find they are much more quiet on the highway, work well in wet and cold conditions and with my PSS9 suspension I can eat up 997s with Pilots all day long at the local autocross once they are warmed up.  Have been having a fun time converting local Porsche club members (granted the PSS9 is the major helper, makes any tire look good!)

    It cracks me up that RC thinks that somehow a tire has to be expensive to be good (he used to be affraid it was not safe either so I guess he is less paranoid).   He is correct that it depends on how you drive and how the compounds are created - I prefer a compund that lasts longer and works in cold weather.  The DWS suits me perfectly.  I have been on Pilots in cold weather - not snow, not rain, simply cold weather - they are like ice skates.  That to me, is un-safe.  Porsche may well be recommending which tires work best in prime conditions but they are not doing us any favors in terms of real world weather which for a 911 is a shame because they are not only warm weather track cars - they are long distance all weather machines first and foremost.  I drive in varied conditions and take many LONG trips to Canada etc.  On a weekly basis I drive 300 miles to the lake of the Ozarks and back on the - the lake roads are notorious for being fast, banked and hilly.  They make the Nordschleife seem straight and flat.  I depend on my tires to give me good grip and performance on very narrow unforgiving roads (I should make a video of what I am talking about).

    As you all know I have put 100' of thousands on miles on my 911s over more than 30 years now.  I know tires and I know the difference between N and Non N tires.  I am always delighted when a new Non N tire comes along for me to try out on my 911.  The DWS have been the best I have have ever tried.   RC can give you N tire advice (but why bother since the Michelin he likes are not even available for the 991!), I can give you Non- N tire advice.

    Enjoy - drive right!

     


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Leawood911:

    It cracks me up that RC thinks that somehow a tire has to be expensive to be good (he used to be affraid it was not safe either so I guess he is less paranoid).   He is correct that it depends on how you drive.  I drive in varied conditions and take many LONG trips to Canada etc.  On a weekly basis I drive 300 miles to the lake of the Ozarks and back on the - the lake roads are notorious for being fast, banked and hilly.  They make the Nordschleife seem straight and flat.  I depend on my tires to give me good grip and performance on very narrow unforgiving roads (I should make a video of what I am talking about).

    So maybe you drive too slow to actually experience a difference with good tires? Smiley

    Smiley

    No, I don't think that expensive tires are good, I just think that especially with tires, you get what you pay for. Furthermore, there are no wonder tires for all purposes. I guess you still believe in Santa too?! Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    RC - I do believe in Santa - after all I play Santa for my girls.

    I drive far from slow.  I have owned many sets of N tires, the DWS are within 95% of warm/dry traction.  In the cold or wet the N's don't even have a chance.  To use the difference the Ns provide in the warm/dry I would have to drive like a fool on the streets.

    I consider you a friend - we have a lot in common.  I hope you see my cause as just and all in good fun.  Since I come to Europe often it would be fun meet - and have a go at a local go-cart track and see about who is slow...

    So why no Michelins for the 991? 

    Have a great day!


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    RC:

     I don't want to doubt Leawood's claims here but I also don't know him and I don't know how he drives.  Smiley

    I do know Leawood911 (a.k.a. "the Mad Austrian"). He drives like his a$$ is on fire
     and his head is a catchin'.
     
     I once saw him get an invite to the local BMW owners club when they rented a go-kart
     track. Out of about two dozen Karts on the track at one time, nobody could touch him.
     (They were evenly matched rented Karts along with the track rental)

     BMW owners of course claimed that the rear-engined go-kart design did in fact favor
     the 911 owner.  Smiley

     I don't want to brag on his behalf and when I think about how I could go on for hours,
     it leaves me bored at the thought of all that typing (lots of good memories though).

     Back to tires, if you live in the Mid-West and want the best tyre for the weather
     conditions; then tyre changing should become your regular exercise routine.  Smiley


     
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