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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SciFrog:

    Just wait for a used 991 TTS. Prices will drop faster and harder than previous models.

    It depends...it depends on how many used 991 Turbo S will be available within the first 12 months. My guess is: Not many.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I was thinking more 2 or 3 years.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Mmmh,difficult for me take a second hand car...i know i'm wrong,but this is...


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SciFrog:

    I was thinking more 2 or 3 years.

    After 3 years, the facelift will be available... Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    You can't complain about the price if you always want the latest thing out...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Yes,but at all there is a limit...smiley


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Confirmed: In 2014, the new GT3 engine will be very likely used as a base for the next 911 RSR engine.

    Why not this year (2013)? Because it isn't quite clear where the GTE class is heading to...so Porsche slowed down development for the new direct injection engine.

    There you go....racingwink


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    Over on the other board some folks have argued that the current motor will not be used for racing b/c it was built for lower cost production and is not an easily serviced (that is, easily rebuilt) for racing applications.  Any feedback from PAG on that topic?

    Apparently some race shops in the US have dug into the 9A1 motor in the 991 and have found it built in a way that it cannot really be rebuilt.


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    FLATSIXES: Will the new engine in the 991 GT3 make it to Porsche motorsports? If so, can you say when and where?

    Andreas Preuninger: Sure, it was developed with this exact focus by the same engineers that did all of the flat-6 race and street engines in the past. The reason for not having the engine in the new 991 Cup is mainly timing, because Cup cars are already in production and the streetcar development is still ongoing, now in its last phase.
    Secondly, it is a totally different engine and as such, the education of the race teams on how to deal with the new technology is complex and has to be done right and in time.
    Future use of this engine in other 911 race cars is planned but in which form the engine will be used depends strongly on future regulations (for example turbo or non turbo).

    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    frayed:
     

    Over on the other board some folks have argued that the current motor will not be used for racing b/c it was built for lower cost production and is not an easily serviced (that is, easily rebuilt) for racing applications.  Any feedback from PAG on that topic?

    Apparently some race shops in the US have dug into the 9A1 motor in the 991 and have found it built in a way that it cannot really be rebuilt.

    The 991 GT3 engine is not the engine used in the 991 Carrera, I don't know why people assume that over and over again. It has the same "genes" so to speak but it is not the same engine.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I believe it shares the same casting, but yeah I understand that it's an all new motor.  Will be interesting to see what PAG has done to make it servicable by the race teams.

    Spyderidol, I read that earlier but it doesn't answer the question about serviceability. 

    All that said, despite all the detractors and naysayers and know-it-alls I have faith that the new metal will be spectacular!  Looking forward to getting mine.


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    " Looking forward to getting mine."

    You mean sometime this decade?indecision


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Hope so!!


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I suspect race teams will have replacement engines rather than service them.  Just like the 997 engine is replaced rather than rebuilt by the service centers.  If they made that call for the majority of their cars already why not for a few race teams?  If the GT3 engine can be rebuilt and is that much better then shame on Porsche for not using it in the Turbo.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Leave it to Harris...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVdme4ISq8Y


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Chris Harris On Cars: PORSCHE 911 GT3 (First Drive)

     
    Chris Harris is among the first in the world to drive the new 911 GT3...
     
    The arguments and counter-arguments over the specification of this car will rage for years to come. It is a fact that in making the new GT3 PDK-only, and giving it rear-wheel steering, Porsche has made the car heavier than perhaps it might have been.
     
    But the 991 is a big car, and yet it weighs nearly 250kg less than a Jaguar F-Type. Isn't that actually quite impressive? Make that very impressive.
     
    Get over it says Harris; here's why we need to...
     
    The PDK gearbox is 20kg heavier than the 991's seven-speed manual, which itself is 20kg heavier than the old two-shaft manual from the previous GT3. But the new engine is 25kg lighter than before and, without the PDK as a power source, the rear-wheel steering would need an auxiliary unit, which would add at least 6kg. In other words, the weight penalty isn't so bad. And that's before you consider the profound improvements this new system has wrought on the road.
     
    Anyhow, the debate will continue - too heavy, wrong gearbox, cop-out of an engine specification. Strange how none of this even enters your head when the car is fully-lit with its hips beginning to rotate. You just think you're driving one of the best sports cars ever made: nothing suppresses the philosophical discussion surrounding paddles and sticks like a flat-six at 8,900rpm.
     
    Enjoy the vid - it's a home movie, but it's the first chance to see the GT3 in action outside of Porsche's hands...
     
     
     
     
    "If we were a car magazine we'd call this a WORLD EXCLUSIVE, but we're not, so we won't. Let's just say we got very early access to the car everyone wants to know about. And it was very, very good. Volume to 11 please." -- Chris Harris
     
     
     
    ...thanks and all due credit to Chris Harris and to Andreas Preuninger and team at Porsche! Smiley
     
    Smiley SmileySmiley

    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    As usual excelent analysis by Harris, there is no "journalist's" opinion that I respect more than Chris Harris'.


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    the noise frown


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    WOW!! So soon!!! Thank you Chris Harris!!!!! wink


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Thanks for sharing


    --

    997 GT3 3.8


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Harris should be on the Porsche board of directors

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    He recognized he has a huge fan base which are MT diehards who wanted him to  criticize the car. To their dismay, he found the car just too good and all he could do is give his MT fan base a wet noodle.indecision

    I know I made the right decision and cannot wait to get my hands on the car.kiss

    However, he did surprise me when he said the 20 inch wheels were an option. I believe he made a mistake.Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    PORSCHE 911 GT3 (991): Review by Chris Harris...

     
    Watched the video? Now read the full story on Chris Harris's drive in the all-new 991 GT3...
     
    When I was a nipper, there was a woman who worked at the shop in the next village whose skills behind a cash till were mesmerising. I used to tag along for the weekly trip just to see how fast she could bash the keys on the machine without, it seemed, ever making a mistake.
     
    She continued working there for years, her body hunching with age and her hair greying, but the speed never left her. She was awesome personified and displayed a dexterity I have never seen before or since. And then one day, I don't precisely remember when, I went in to buy something and The Fastest Checkout Girl in the West simply passed the object under a machine which went 'beep' and she read out a price. She struggled to smile; she knew she would never have the chance to demonstrate her awesome skills again, and she knew I knew it. I felt very sad.
     
    Harris in the GT3 - happy to paddle it?
     
    This obtuse recollection came to mind as I was driving the new 991 GT3. I was pootling along at 30mph and then had to slow to 10mph and negotiate an obstruction in a village. I simply pulled the left lever, the car seamlessly dropped from second to first gear without a shudder and accelerated away again. It was utterly nonchalant - neither car nor driver gave it a second thought.
     
    Glory days
     
    And then it struck me I had just missed a perfect opportunity to demonstrate to myself one of the most difficult gearchange situations - the smooth heel'n'toe from second to first gear. The one I used to do as often as possible years ago to learn how best to match brake and throttle. This was confusing. On the one hand I was awed at the way this new PDK transmission handled the situation, on the other, just like the demon till operator I felt that a skill I had nurtured and cherished for so many years had been rendered redundant.
     
    This is a theme that pervades any appraisal of the new 991 GT3. It is not one I wish to avoid, but it I think it needs to be separated from the reality of driving the vehicle itself.
     
    The GT3 is paddles only, and to ignore this car because it's missing a pedal would be foolish. It provides a driving experience I'd have thought impossible in a street-legal 911 until recently - and by recently I mean last week. When you watch the rev counter spring from 8,500rpm to 9,000rpm then tap that lever, receive a nudge to the spine and register an exhaust pop reflecting of a cliff face it's hard to support the notion that the new GT3 is anything other than a complete masterpiece.
     
    Dished rear wheels just look awesome...
     
    Moving on
     
    The engine is perhaps an even bigger bone of contention. Gone is the old split case six that defined unquestionably the greatest sports car dynasty in Porsche's history - the GT3 - in its place comes a derivative of the direct injection 9A1 motor.
     
    The first time you extend it, you forget the Mezger lump ever existed. Rated at 475hp and with 325lb ft of torque it is so happy revving beyond 8,000rpm that controlling the instinct to spend the whole time up in the raucous zone is too much to bear. And the noise between 8,500 and 9,000 needs to be experienced first hand. It's the sound of a valvetrain straining. It's slightly unsettling and perfectly real. There's no symposer here: the noise builds from 3,000rpm and dominates the experience. At 9,000rpm, with the exhaust in its loud mode, the car is louder than a 997 Cup car.
     
    Gear ratios are shorter than on the 997 GT3 and, unlike other PDK 911s, seventh gear is not an overdrive. It's a stunning powertrain: characterful, accessible and so damn fast. Porsche claims 0-100mph in 7.5 seconds using the launch control, and, not that many people will trouble such a time, it can lap that place in Germany in 7min25sec. 
     
    Four-wheel steering locks in place for this...
     
    Four to the floor
     
    Bigger gains have been made in the chassis. Don't dismiss the four-wheel steering until you've driven this car. A wider front axle, new rubber, many new suspension components and a superb active locking differential combine to transform the GT3's behaviour in bends. Gone is the understeer and reluctance to turn. The agility is startling and the way the diff can open under braking makes it feel free and keen to change direction. As someone who has spent too much time trying to make fast 911s more effective on the road, I was just stunned at what it can do.
    But best of all the technology is invisible within the overall experience, you simply do not know it's there - to the point that if you provoke the car into a slide the car instantly locks the rear wheels in place because it knows you want to be silly. High-speed stability is of a different quality to the outgoing car. For me, the weight penalty as a road car is easily worth the gains at all speeds.
     
    I only drove the car on dry roads, but the electric power steering proves that we need to be patient with what appears to be an evil development. This is miles, miles better than the Carrera's rack. The weighting immediately has GT3 DNA about it. The squirm and wriggle is much more muted than before but it's telepathically accurate. This is the first electric steering I have felt an emotion for that went beyond mere tolerance. I want to drive the car in mixed conditions before saying much more.
     
    PDK has been reconfigured for the GT3
     
    Looks to kill
     
    To my skewed sense of the aesthetic this car looks plain wonderful. The nose treatment lifts it above normal 911s, the forged rims - especially the dished rears - had me gawping for minutes and the suggestive ride height gives it that unmistakable air of no-messing. The cabin is a mild tweak on the 991 theme: well organised, high-quality and dotted with enough GT3 references to keep people happy. The carbon buckets in the Clubsport model are less extreme than the old fixed-back items, but still a great compromise between weight, comfort and support.
     
    Reducing the travel of the paddles by 50 per cent and increasing the effort required to pull them certainly adds to the sense of occasion and connection. The lever also moves in the correct direction, back to go up. Shifts themselves are mesmerisingly quick, Porsche quotes a number but it's meaningless from behind the wheel - they feel instant. Coupled with the new front axle agility it makes the GT3 so immediate and athletic and, crucially, completely cloaks the fact that the car is heavier than before. The way it drives, you'd swear it was lighter. In defense of the paddle approach, there were times when I genuinely thought the car wasn't just better for having them, but more fun too. I didn't expect that.
     
    I drove the car in 'normal' gearshift mode, 'sport' is for circuit use only.
     
    Little danger of mistaking it for a Carrera
     
    Feelsome
     
    Brake pedal feel is exemplary and I suppose one of the few upsides to not having to match engine and gear speed is now being able to ignore the fact the brake pedal is still a little too high.
     
    Steel brakes are standard: 380mm all-round with exemplary pedal feel and not once giving me any fade. The electronic safety systems, coupled with the torque vectoring give less skilled drivers immense security to explore the car's capabilities, but I love the fact that you can still remove everything and lay lines if you want to.
     
    Which should somehow bring me back to the old crone who could process a trolley of food shopping like her life depended on it, but I can't summon a suitable hook to lead us back there.
     
    I suppose it's a point of principle, really. Changing gear yourself is one of the cornerstones of driver skill and enjoyment. As every other manufacturer of very fast cars has abandoned the noble gear lever, Porsche had a chance to show that it operated on a different level to those traitors. But it chose not to. However, I cannot allow that to taint what the GT3 has become. It is faster, better and in many ways more enjoyable than before. Just thinking about that engine as it heads into the red zone makes me grin. But the GT3 wouldn't have been more things to more people if there was an option to change gear yourself - of that I remain quite convinced.
     
    PORSCHE 911 GT3 (991)
     
    Engine: 3,799cc flat-6
    Transmission: 7-speed dual-clutch auto (PDK), rear-wheel drive
    Power (hp): 475@8,250rpm
    Torque (lb ft): 325@6,250rpm
    0-62mph: 3.5sec
    Top speed: 196mph
    Weight: 1,430kg (DIN)
    MPG: 22.8mpg (NEDC combined)
    CO2: 289g/km
    Price: £100,540 (basic list)
     
     
    ...thanks again and all due credit and respect to Chris Harris!

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    He recognized he has a huge fan base which are MT diehards who wanted him to  criticize the car.

    Nick, if you would have followed Chris Harrris' reviews over the years you would not have thrown out such a ridiculous theory.


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Carlos from Spain:
    nberry:

    He recognized he has a huge fan base which are MT diehards who wanted him to  criticize the car.

    Nick, if you would have followed Chris Harrris' reviews over the years you would not have thrown out such a ridiculous theory.


    --

    Correct.  Chris Harris did not pander to a "manual transmission fan base" but, instead, fomented his manual transmission arguments on his desires and his statements are rather balanced.  He is tormented by the lack of a manual in a car that is so capable.  However, he does praise the PDK's abilities in the GT3 and how it makes driving a far easier tasks, especially when faced with technical, i.e., curvy roads.  More significantly, however, was one of his final statements that Porsche should build a car with that engine and a manual gearbox.  Perhaps, a detuned version of the GT3 engine dropped into the Cayman would allow Porsche enough delineation between the GT3 with the PDK and another sporty derivative in its sports car lineup.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    What a car! SmileySmileySmiley I  love everything about it. I thought white was the color, but it looks fantastic in silver too. And Chris Harris is the man.  SmileySmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Carlos from Spain:
    nberry:

    He recognized he has a huge fan base which are MT diehards who wanted him to  criticize the car.

    Nick, if you would have followed Chris Harrris' reviews over the years you would not have thrown out such a ridiculous theory.


    --

    Carlos, he made it clear at the beginning that that car is controversial because of the lack of MT. He was well aware that the MT fans which are a big part of his  of his audience were hoping he would find fault with the car. Instead he said

    "The GT3 is paddles only, and to ignore this car because it's missing a pedal would be foolish. It provides a driving experience I'd have thought impossible in a street-legal 911 until recently - and by recently I mean last week. When you watch the rev counter spring from 8,500rpm to 9,000rpm then tap that lever, receive a nudge to the spine and register an exhaust pop reflecting of a cliff face it's hard to support the notion that the new GT3 is anything other than a complete masterpiece."


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Don't be shocked if in January Porsche offers the GT3 with a 7spd CR manual....at extra cost of course! smiley

    I think the initial PDK only strategy in the GT3 has a lot to do with selling the car in emerging markets to newly rich people with little driving experience except for what they learned in Need for Speed and other video games.

     

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    OMG - CH nails it once again ! Best car journalist by a huge margin !


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Video from Sportauto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu6o0hCFR5Y


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    JimFlat6:

    Don't be shocked if in January Porsche offers the GT3 with a 7spd CR manual....at extra cost of course! smiley

    I think the initial PDK only strategy in the GT3 has a lot to do with selling the car in emerging markets to newly rich people with little driving experience except for what they learned in Need for Speed and other video games.

    Andreas Preuninger was pretty mad at the comments made on the internet and in the press about the PDK in the GT3 and the missing manual option. Chris Harris actually confirmed what Preuninger always claimed but apparently there are still die hard manual fans out there who just won't listen (or don't care to listen because they want their toy the way they know best Smiley). I do not know any ambitious driver who would want to be slower for the sake of driving manual but I guess I know the wrong people. Smiley

    Truth is: Porsche gets a lot of heat for not offering manual anymore for the GT3, including potential customers. My dealer told me that he has many people interested in the new GT3 but some wouldn't order one because it lacks manual. While I can understand this...a little bit...most of these people are not pro drivers but regular customers who love a good drive. It is quite interesting to actually see that those who did professional racing, actually want to have PDK but those who are considered amateur drivers, want manual. I don't know if this is something we can generalize but the people I talked to certainly seem to "tick" that way.

    Maybe the a compromise would help: There are rumors that the new GT3 RS could be available with manual, especially after the pressure from die hard GT3 customers who want manual. Not sure however if this is the best solution (since the GT3 RS would be probably slower than the GT3 with PDK for that matter Smiley) but if people want to eat sh.t instead of honey, give them sh.t. Smiley (this is not from me, I just heard that from a well known professional driver who I better do not name here...for the sake of Porsche Smiley).

    Personally, I would choose the new PDK (based on the recent experience of CH) but I wouldn't have anything against offering manual for those who want it. Why not? I would even make it an extra cost option. Smiley

    Speaking of Chris Harris: If he says he liked the GT3, this means it is true. I also understand his statement about manual but then I could argue that for fun, he also drifts a lot and this is something I actually avoid to be faster. Smiley For me, it is fun to achieve the maximum possible performance, to drive from A to B in the fastest possible way, with technical razor sharp precision. A drift would slow me down, I don't like it. I enjoyed it why I had the C63 AMG Coupe (actually, this is the car you want to have if you have fun drifting) but this isn't something I enjoy like Chris Harris. Maybe because in my younger days, I did that a lot and it kind of got boring. Yes, it looks spectacular and everybody thinks that whoever can drift that good, is a fantastic driver but I actually know a guy who is amazing when it comes to drifting but he isn't capable of driving a clean line on the track without oversteering, he just can't (his claim).

    Like I said, if I were Porsche, I would offer a manual transmission at extra cost. Just the other way around, PDK standard and manual for 4k EUR. Smiley Make the best out of the situation... Smiley

    CH said: I suppose it's a point of principle, really. Changing gear yourself is one of the cornerstones of driver skill and enjoyment. As every other manufacturer of very fast cars has abandoned the noble gear lever, Porsche had a chance to show that it operated on a different level to those traitors. But it chose not to. However, I cannot allow that to taint what the GT3 has become. It is faster, better and in many ways more enjoyable than before. Just thinking about that engine as it heads into the red zone makes me grin. But the GT3 wouldn't have been more things to more people if there was an option to change gear yourself - of that I remain quite convince

    This is his opinion and I respect that. For me, the cornerstone of driver skill and enjoyment is to be as fast as possible. Everything else, I left behind with my late puberty. Smiley The only thing which is really missing here is...the clutch. Maybe Porsche should offer a manual gear lever to provide the illusion of a manual transmission. Maybe even a fake clutch pedal. Smiley (just kidding of course).

    I get it, many want manual with a clutch for driving pleasure but this is the same thing as owning a Cab in Germany. You use it twice per year with an open top Smiley (or if you are crazy, like many, you drive open at 0°C) but actually accept all the disadvantages of a Cab for that matter, like additional weight, more noise and usually also less rigidity, which usually makes the Cab feel slightly less sporty than the Coupe counterpart. 

    A last word regarding the Cayman and a de-tuned GT3 engine: Really? Does anyone, judging by the performance the current Cayman S delivers, that Porsche will ever do that?! Case closed.

     

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


     
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