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    Porsche - Nürburgring - Winter - Video - Must !!!!

    This one is a must-see:

    nordschleife_winter.mpg

    I guess when I can do that it will be time for me to stop practicing.

    Stephen

    Re: Porsche - Nürburgring - Winter - Video - Must !!!!


    Very Cool - Who needs AWD, just good winter tires will do!

    Looks like a C2 with Conti winter tires only. Looks like more fun than a C4, but a bit harder to get started from a dead stop on snow. Small margin for error on some of those corners!

    Re: GREAT VIDEO!!!!! (nt)

    .

    Standing start

    I got the impression he was letting the PSM take care of the standing start there. Sounded like it and looked like it when the car was straight and hooked up.

    Not sure how close to the edge he was. Car was still in one piece and this is no winter proving ground.

    Anyone know who he is?

    Stephen

    PSM?

    Maybe PSM was on for the start, but it surely looked to be off for the rest of the drive, don't you think?

    Absolutely.

    I would think your upcoming GT3 should be pretty good for this sort of thing with its LSD.

    Stephen

    Kick Ass clip, thanks (NT)


    Re: Absolutely.

    I agree about the LSD, Stephen, but this fellow sure made due without it!

    Bravo Fixedwing, very nice clip!

    Any of you german guys who are more accustomed to snow driving can explain how you manage while driving on snow to put the car sideways very early thus preventing the nose to go wide during the bend(understeer)?
    Is there a special technique, like left foot braking or something similar.
    I find mid bend or exiting the bend it's easy to put sideways, but before it all I usually get is brutal understeer when I try.
    Maybe it has to do with me trying on an Audi S6 instead of a Carrera 2.

    Re: Bravo Fixedwing, very nice clip!

    Luigi -Using the parking brake can help

    Re: Porsche - Nürburgring - Winter - Video - Must !!!!

    thanks for lot of oversteer...

    amazing movie...how would it be with the yellow gt3 at the beginning of the movie on snow?

    nice

    Very nice, thanks Stephen...

    ...I really enjoyed it. Almost put my Turbo out of the garage and tried the same...we have a lot of snow over here too. Almost...

    GT3

    Should be better. The GT3 has LSD which isn't an option on the current C2. You can hear him (and see from the rev counter at one stage) that he is using lots of wheelspin to get and control the oversteer. I would think that the LSD would be much more responsive.

    Maybe they should have used a GT2?

    Stephen

    Re: Very nice, thanks Stephen...

    You are most welcome Christian.

    The video appeared on the Ringers list a couple days ago. I don't believe it is anywhere else yet. So far I must have watched it a zillion times.

    Don't suppose you know who the driver is? I suspect I hear a name towards the beginning but not sure. Some of the German seems to be talking about driving technique. Obviously, most of it is about selling the car.

    As for our Turbos ... alas, I believe that they are built to avoid that sort of thing. Too bad the various differentials aren't adjustable on our cars. That would be quite something.

    Stephen

    Re: Luigi,

    Before the corner begin, I release my throttle and step on the brakes abruptly to transfer the CG to the front end of the car and at the same time turn my steering wheel smooth but quick at the same time on the brakes. All these action should be (before the curve begin) You then start to feel the car drifting into the corners, counter steer right away.

    For the first time, It feels like you are turning in too early, and drive right into the grasses. You will get the hang of it after a while

    If you want to keep the drift going, step on more gas to keep traction lose on the tires

    Re: Bravo Fixedwing, very nice clip!

    Seriously, Luigi, usually you can get some rotation in snow by lifting and/or braking slightly while turning to get the weight on the front tires and then apply the throttle to swing the tail slightly. This all takes a bit of practice. It's easiest to do with a front engine RWD car with a long wheelbase (I learned with old Cadillacs, etc.)

    Re: Nice

    wish i can try that also

    Re: GT3

    what do you mean with that LSD...

    I don't know the function of it. Is it something for traction??

    And only for GT3? new or old?

    LSD

    Yes. Limited Slip Differential.

    On an "ordinary" car, if you jack the car up in the air and apply power, one back wheel will spin and the other will stay stationary. LSD will make them both turn by transfering drive to the stationary wheel.

    So a car with LSD will drive both rear wheels instead of just one. The current C2 doesn't have LSD. The GT3 does.

    So in the snow, the driver is really only able to over-power one of the rear wheels on the C2. Also when he wants to get the power down, he is only able to use one wheel (the one with the least resistence). The GT3 can slide both rear wheels at will and when he powers out of the corner, both rear wheels are putting power down. Much better.

    Of course, it will make the throttle more sensetive in the snow. If an idiot is driving then much easier to loose the back end.

    Stephen

    Re: LSD

    Exactly, Stephen! And Partboy, the GT2 has LSD also. These are the only models in Porsche's lineup (until Carrera GT comes out). It's not as important with the AWD variants (TT, C4, C4S), but the RWD cars really benefit from LSD. Unfortunately, Porsche hasn't been able to combine PSM with LSD, so it's one or the other for the time being...

    Re: LSD

    The C2 DOES HAVE A REAR axle LSD (lock is set at 25% slippage in acceleration and 40% retention) but the difference is that its set is different that the GT3 (40% acceleration and 60% in retention). And both a normal (non-locking) diferential for the FRONT axle.

    The AWD C4 also has the same LSD for the rear axle as the C2 but has an aditional center Viscous Coupling differential (like the E46-M3's rear differntial) to be able to also distribute torque between the front and rear axle since its AWD (can transfer between 5% and 40% torque to the front depending on the slip).

    This is with or without PSM, thats a different more intrusive add-on "electronic" system, that when you turn OFF your left with only the Automatic Brake Diferential (ABD) / LSD.

    Audi's "Quattro" or the Hummer for example use a Torsen type differential for the rear and the center, except for the A3 Quattro and TT Quattro which uses Haldex differential (Active differential).

    But Rally cars like Lancia Delta Integrale, Ford Escort Cosworth, Mitsu Lancer, Subaru Impreza, etc use the fourth type of differential which is the Viscous Coupling Diffrertial Lock (a combo of viscous-coupling and regular LSD lock).

    Only cheap utility cars have normal non-locking differentials that allow the wheel with out traction to steal all the torque from the other wheel with traction, therefore the car will be tougher to get out of the situation, the slipping tire spins more and the tire with traction looses all power... not very sporty <img src="http://www.rennteam.com/w3timages/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

    Re: LSD

    Carlos - I think you are right about the 1999 996C2, which had LSD as an option, but all other MY's of the C2 have only an open diff, AFAIK. My 2002 C2 (with PSM off) would spin the inside wheel on snow/ice with no drive to the other wheel at all (zero).

    Re: Porsche - Nürburgring - Winter - Video - Must !!!!

    i recommended this video to the rennlist site --great reception so far it's a most impressive performance!

    Re: LSD

    Hi Grant,

    Are you sure it spins as much/like an OPEN differential? because even if you turn PSM off, you are still left with (besides the LSD) the electronic ABD ON which prevents that; when it detects spin on one wheel, it sends power to wheel with traction and applies ABS to the spinning wheel.

    You have some info here:
    http://www.foi.hr/~molama/Carera4.htm
    http://www3.porsche.com/english/usa/911/c2/safety/psm.htm
    http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd_2.htm

    MY99 had only LSD alone which is the sportiest option, since the electronic add-ons provide more safety at the limit but are more intrusive, thats why the GT3 has just LSD and the GT2 a special asymetric LSD.

    Grettings

    Re: LSD

    Carlos - I am sure that the only cars in Porsche's lineup with a (mechanical - not electronic ABD, PSM, etc.) LSD are the GT2 and GT3 (and soon the Carrera GT). It's too bad...

    Re: LSD

    Grant - you sound so certain that you are starting to make me doubt now

    I'll see if I can confirm that C2/C4 don't have a LSD lock underneath BESIDES the electronics as you say.

    I know, Viken fron Rennlist has gotta know

    Re: LSD

    OK - Let me know - I might be wrong - I'm always anxious to learn

    Re: LSD

    Hey Grant - Loren says that PSM replaced the LSD of the MY99 C2. So you were right! My appologies...

    So no LSD, but still not open differential though since Porsche site says that even with PSM off the ABD doesn't allow the free wheel to spin and steal the torque. But definately not as sporty as the LSD of the GT3/GT2

    The funny thing is that I have a couple of mag articles were it says that the C2 and C4 have LSD set to lock at 25% slippage in acceleration and 40% retention... go figure

    Re: LSD

    Thanks for the info Carlos!

     
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