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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    edz said: I remember days that the 911 hardly had a rival behind the light




    Funny, I don't remember those days... When was that?



    Quote:
    edz said: Many little Honda's and Acura's can get supercharged right at the dealer and add a Nos to the car and you have a monster that can keep up with you if not beat you.



    Again, what's your point? As I said previously, why not just build a fast Pinto... I once knew a guy with an '83 Caprice Classic that he used as a tow-vehicle for his race boats that, with a transplanted 396 and nitrous, ran mid-11 second 1/4 miles on street radials and pump gas through big RV mufflers that kept the car as quite as a Rolls Royce...

    Jeez, the moment I saw "12.6 @ 112mph" in a magazine for the 997S I just about jumped out of my airline seat, looked for a parachute, and jumped out of the plane to find the nearest Porsche dealer to order one... I finally was out of excuses as to why NOT to bite the bullet and buy a Carrera...

    Funny there's so much demand for track-minimalism and power, just as Chrysler is considering selling the Viper to a niche-manufacturer to raise some dough...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    edz said: I remember days that the 911 hardly had a rival behind the light




    Funny, I don't remember those days... When was that?



    Quote:
    edz said: Many little Honda's and Acura's can get supercharged right at the dealer and add a Nos to the car and you have a monster that can keep up with you if not beat you.



    Again, what's your point? As I said previously, why not just build a fast Pinto... I once knew a guy with an '83 Caprice Classic that he used as a tow-vehicle for his race boats that, with a transplanted 396 and nitrous, ran mid-11 second 1/4 miles on street radials and pump gas through big RV mufflers that kept the car as quite as a Rolls Royce...

    Jeez, the moment I saw "12.6 @ 112mph" in a magazine for the 997S I just about jumped out of my airline seat, looked for a parachute, and jumped out of the plane to find the nearest Porsche dealer to order one... I finally was out of excuses as to why NOT to bite the bullet and buy a Carrera...

    Funny there's so much demand for track-minimalism and power, just as Chrysler is considering selling the Viper to a niche-manufacturer to raise some dough...



    The point is that Porsche is no longer a peformance ICON. I I am die hard Porsche fan and have had many and fast or slow I love them. As to your comment about your memory you should try Gingo Bloba

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Not a performance icon?

    Based upon what?

    Did I miss the awards ceremony?

    Did I forget to vote?

    Does the Pope decide these things???? Because if he does, Porsche's a shoe-in with Benedict XVI, it's the Italians who've lost their iconship!!



    Naturally-aspirated Porsches have never ruled the streets, and Turbo-charged Porsches have always been prey-of-choice for opportunistic modded-Mustang drag racers or fill-in-your-blank...

    Nothing's different, except the naturally-aspirated Porsches these days put up one hell of a better fight in a straight line.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Nothing's different, except the naturally-aspirated Porsches these days put up one hell of a better fight in a straight line.



    They also get their butts kicked more than ever before. Trust me my friend I have owned P-cars since 1993 and regardless of who says what I love them and no matter what I will always have one in my garage. So you don't need to convince me as we are on the same page

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Fastest in a straight line.... eh, who cares. Thats a silly game for teens and 20-somethings. Porsche is not designed for that game, so why expect them to perform well at it? Porsche's are designed for road course driving.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    If you'd been driving in Florida in 1993, you'd have a different opinion.... Mid-90's air-cooled Carreras were red-meat to us drag-heads, easy prey... And 6-speed LT1 Corvettes also easily pulled-away. My '93 LT1 ran 13.38 @ 107 bone-stock, before I started modding..

    Maybe it's the modern-day proliferance of hot SEDANS that has your perception skewed... Those didn't really exist back then. But the fact that there's a bunch of fast 4-doors today doesn't really have anything to do with the sports car world. If it does, than EVERY sports car manufacturer has sedans nipping at their heels, and they could ALL be labeled as "losing ground"...

    But let's be real, Porsches had a tough time running high-13's back then... Every kid with a 5.0 Mustang with a gear and good set of heads and intake, or a blower, easily could hand you your fanny at the stoplight... Was that craze not happening in the O.C.?

    I'm not even touching all the sick-fast modified Buick GN's that were rolling around, Chrysler was selling re-badged Mitsubishis with 300+ h.p. and AWD, Nissan twin-turbo'd its new Z-car for 300 h.p., the Toyota jumped in with the '93 Supra at 320 h.p., the Corvette was at 300 (which had to be a bit underrated, considering how strong mine ran...)...

    No naturally-aspirated Porsche MADE during those times could pull away from any of those cars. You had to have a Turbo...

    I'm not knocking Porsche, I dreamt of them just as much then as I do now... But c'mon, NA Porsches have been pansies on the dragstrip until the 997S rolled down the pike... I'm just being realistic, I used to spend every weekend of my life at my local NHRA track racing, and watching virtually every make and model take its shot...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    I agree MMD,

    Porsche is indeed the best. They just have a few downsides that some of the more exclusive niche manufacturers do not.

    1. The brand is ubiquitous. You can't go 1 mile in a metropolitain area without seeing one.

    2. The brand is diluted, building too many utilitarian models.

    3. Minimum price of entry is perhaps too low.



    But Tom, if these are the only downsides Porsche has, then... These points are all about exclusivity. I don't care about that.

    I want a car that I can commute with during the week, take my girlfriend to dinner and go to the track on Saturday (and look at and think it's beautiful). The 997 does all that with grace. If it's the fastest on a straight line or the most rare seen, I don't care. I doesn't help me either when using it for commuting, dinning or tracking.

    It's my car and I have it for my pleasure.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I agree that the difference in a straightline has diminished when comparing 911's to mainstream cars with a big engine. But if straightline is what matters there's always the Turbo. Throw some corners into the equation especially one with bumps or undulations and the quality of a 911 shines. On its home turf in sweeping unrestricted autobahn corners the sheer stability and iron fisted control of the damping is something to truly admire. I was mildly entertained by the looseness of a derestricted RS4 last week which I was following and showed why perhaps the limted version may be better. The 911 was untroubled, stable and had reserve even at very high speed. Is the 911 losing ground? In straight drag race maybe. But as a usable every day road biased sports car I think not. The depth of the development engineering shines when it really matters.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I find it honestly amusing that this thread is limited to two very opposite opinions. To be very precise, Porsche and especially the 911 was well-known for its versatility. You could use it on a daily basis yet drive it on a racetrack at the weekend. Even the visual appearance of the car made it fit in any given situation. No competitors could cover all of its virtues to such an extent. Ferrari or Mercedes' SL are still additions and no substitutes for a 911, but the gap has closed at least for the former.
    Unlike others, for me the 911's layout has quite a few strong points and I don't agree that an equally powerful mid-engined sportscar would act as a replacement, more so as an addtion. Especially with today's technology and state of development, the demanding handling of the rear-engined car can be eased for the unexperienced drivers.

    I certainly wouldn't want the old times back, I am fully aware of the benefits the current generation gives you, e.g. much improved ergonomics, handling and aerodynamics, and I prefer a healthy over an insolvent company. Up until the 993, the cars were good for more than 100k mls. before an engine overhaul. One can be lucky if the current ones make half of it. However Porsche honed the air-cooled chassis to perfection over almost four decades and this mirrors in those cars. Let's face it, the 996 and 997 are not only produced in very different numbers but in a much more cost-efficient manner. However this is inversely proportional to the prices they charge for their cars today. If you don't believe me check those prices for the Carrera models a decade ago and their position compared to the competition back then. Hopefully the new 9M7 engine solves the previous engine's flaws.
    As an addition, the 993 and 996 TT were performance icons, there is no doubt about it, since they combined status, performance and driveability on an unsurpassed level. Don't start suggesting that they could be rivaled in a straight line by a modified Pinto, that's nonsense and purely irrelevant in this discussion.

    Some of the drawbacks mentioned are certainly due to Porsche's tense financial situation in the middle of 90ies and were hard to solve quickly. RMS? First-gen PCCB? However the 911 became a fashion item in recent past, bought by people who fall for these things. Naturally they look out for other things than a sportscar enthusiast does. Heated steering wheel? After all, the offer what customers ask for.
    To be honest, I am rather left with the feeling that you have to justify your decision to buy a Porsche than me defending my position. However I am getting tired of this discussion over the net, work is calling...!

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    By the way,

    what were the main critics about the 997 Turbo?

    a. styling
    b. turbo lag
    c. exhaust note
    d. antique automatic
    e. handling

    None of these things are related to straightline performance, although F430, LP560, Z06 and GT-R are at least equally fast.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    As a 997S owner myself, I'm in agreement with the OP. Porsche needs to do better. We can get into the specifics of each performance category, but I think the points are better stated by looking at some comparisons that people are legitimately making, but shouldn't be. I'll grant you that straight line isn't everything, but there's a point where it's so inadequate that just about any performance oriented sedan, GT, or sports car in the $40k range is neck and neck with the 997. As a 997 owner, I feel like Porsche has let us down compared to the competition.

    I appreciate the styling, the handling, the feel, and the history of the car. But when you buy a $100k performance car that historically is the benchmark for performance, then performance shouldn't be the main category of complaint.

    The 997 (Mk1) shouldn't lose in a straight line to a 3700lb. M3 sedan that costs 30% less and has 4 seats.

    The 997 shouldn't get spanked in many performance categories by a BASE Corvette that can be obtained in the $40k range.

    These and other comparisons are being made now but not necessarily in the past. Porsche should be the benchmark that others strive for, not trying to keep up with Chevy's economical model of Corvette or BMW's GT sedans. It's not too much to ask for. We're not being greedy. Nobody expects the Carerra to be as fast as a Z06, but the base Corvette is another story.

    The discussion is relevant for the Cayman too, which is in direct competition (price wise) with the current M3, yet the M3 outperforms it on the track, in a straight line, etc. and it is a 4 seater saloon - yet the Cayman is supposedly a dedicated sports car. This shouldn't happen. Appealing to style, steering feel, and heritage will only go so far, and as a current owner I don't see myself being so eager to buy another if Porsche doesn't make dramatic improvements.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    If you want a Cayman with a 3.8 motor in it, you can get it from any numbres of tuners in Germany. Not an issue and the motor /transmission is more or less rotated 180 degrees from the 911 layout.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Guys, actually, when I think about the 911's appeal, it is a combination that in sum cannot be matched by anything else out there. Not in order:
    - looks, classic, modern, enduring, no straight line, wonderful curves, muscular but lithe
    - packaging (probably the one point ignored by all the mid-engine harping). You can fit four people in this car if you need to. I have done a 10 day trip through Austria with the lady with clothes packed for hiking, casual, and a wedding, plus wedding presents, etc and we had ample space (front boot is great for a soft bag plus hiking gear/boots, second row of seats, if folded down, is very useful) - Have old guys next to me in the hotel parking lot shake their heads at how much stuff we could get in....
    - visibility - the 360 degree visibility for a sports car is staggering. Slightly upright front screen so you can see that way, also means A pillars are not so obstructing, great side visibility, rear three quarter windows give you a good look that way, as does having that nice big rear window. Too often, all this bullshit talk of performance forgets that on a windy road, absolutely paramount before getting to a car's limits is that you can see enough and feel the position of the car sufficiently well, so that you feel comfortable to drive up to the car's limits. This also goes for useability in traffic, parking, etc.
    - packaging (x2) - supports previous point but all of the cars usable space is max'ed out in what still is a small package which is easy to "place" on the road (this also kills the case for a lot of the aforementioned mid-engine cars, which have you white knuckled when trundling through small Italian towns, etc.)
    - driveability. Everything works like you would expect something honed over 40 years to work.
    - man/machine interface: the tactile responsiveness is truly staggering. Everything is an extension of the driver. Feel from the steering is unique and it talks to you. Futhermore, everything that you need to look at or touch is precisely where you would expect it to be. The distance from the steering wheel to indicator stalk, for example, is about as perfect as it can get, and I could go on. Digital speed display in the rev counter, perfect, ...
    - performance: enough to put a smile on my face
    - reliability: everytime I get in, I don't have that nagging sensation, question mark in my mind "is it going to start?" even if covered by a foot of snow
    - traction: motor might be in the rear, but that means every horse is more effectively put to use
    - center of gravity: motor might be in the rear (again) but guess what, the boxer configuration means the weight of the engine is placed as low as technically possible in the car and this results in a lower center of gravity versus a "V-8" engine design with the cylinders standing tall
    - build quality: high
    - maintenance: low maintenance lady, she does not need a steady diet of expensive things to keep a smile on her face...
    - useability: daily driver and track car
    - fuel consumption: 13.5l / 100km is better than a VR6 Golf

    If you look at all of the above, sure, a R8 (which mind you has not convincingly beaten a 4S in any of the tests I ahve seen) may have you on "lookign mean and modern and aggressive". But, you can't go buy someone driving a 1982 version of a R8 and wave at them, because there were no R8's then. The Italian solution, sure, gets the heart racing, but needs to be car #3 or #4, can't be used everyday, not that great for long overnight trips around the country given space constraints. Also, let's face it, when you are sitting parked in front of a restaurant, before starting, you always probably say a quick prayer that it does actually start.... The Japanese solution, fast, flavor of the day, probably not enduring.

    My two cents worth....

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    gw2009 said:
    If you want a Cayman with a 3.8 motor in it, you can get it from any numbres of tuners in Germany. Not an issue and the motor /transmission is more or less rotated 180 degrees from the 911 layout.



    That should give it really good performance in its six reverse gears!

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    gw2009 said:
    Guys, actually, when I think about the 911's appeal, it is a combination that in sum cannot be matched by anything else out there. Not in order:
    - looks, classic, modern, enduring, no straight line, wonderful curves, muscular but lithe
    - packaging (probably the one point ignored by all the mid-engine harping). You can fit four people in this car if you need to. I have done a 10 day trip through Austria with the lady with clothes packed for hiking, casual, and a wedding, plus wedding presents, etc and we had ample space (front boot is great for a soft bag plus hiking gear/boots, second row of seats, if folded down, is very useful) - Have old guys next to me in the hotel parking lot shake their heads at how much stuff we could get in....
    - visibility - the 360 degree visibility for a sports car is staggering. Slightly upright front screen so you can see that way, also means A pillars are not so obstructing, great side visibility, rear three quarter windows give you a good look that way, as does having that nice big rear window. Too often, all this bullshit talk of performance forgets that on a windy road, absolutely paramount before getting to a car's limits is that you can see enough and feel the position of the car sufficiently well, so that you feel comfortable to drive up to the car's limits. This also goes for useability in traffic, parking, etc.
    - packaging (x2) - supports previous point but all of the cars usable space is max'ed out in what still is a small package which is easy to "place" on the road (this also kills the case for a lot of the aforementioned mid-engine cars, which have you white knuckled when trundling through small Italian towns, etc.)
    - driveability. Everything works like you would expect something honed over 40 years to work.
    - man/machine interface: the tactile responsiveness is truly staggering. Everything is an extension of the driver. Feel from the steering is unique and it talks to you. Futhermore, everything that you need to look at or touch is precisely where you would expect it to be. The distance from the steering wheel to indicator stalk, for example, is about as perfect as it can get, and I could go on. Digital speed display in the rev counter, perfect, ...
    - performance: enough to put a smile on my face
    - reliability: everytime I get in, I don't have that nagging sensation, question mark in my mind "is it going to start?" even if covered by a foot of snow
    - traction: motor might be in the rear, but that means every horse is more effectively put to use
    - center of gravity: motor might be in the rear (again) but guess what, the boxer configuration means the weight of the engine is placed as low as technically possible in the car and this results in a lower center of gravity versus a "V-8" engine design with the cylinders standing tall
    - build quality: high
    - maintenance: low maintenance lady, she does not need a steady diet of expensive things to keep a smile on her face...
    - useability: daily driver and track car
    - fuel consumption: 13.5l / 100km is better than a VR6 Golf

    If you look at all of the above, sure, a R8 (which mind you has not convincingly beaten a 4S in any of the tests I ahve seen) may have you on "lookign mean and modern and aggressive". But, you can't go buy someone driving a 1982 version of a R8 and wave at them, because there were no R8's then. The Italian solution, sure, gets the heart racing, but needs to be car #3 or #4, can't be used everyday, not that great for long overnight trips around the country given space constraints. Also, let's face it, when you are sitting parked in front of a restaurant, before starting, you always probably say a quick prayer that it does actually start.... The Japanese solution, fast, flavor of the day, probably not enduring.

    My two cents worth....



    It's not too much to expect to have all of those things AND for the car to be the benchmark in PERFORMANCE. I'm not expecting it knock out supercars like the Z06. I would hope I can have your list and be able to keep up with a base model Corvette that costs half as much. Coming from a 997 owner myself, I think it's not an unreasonable expectation.

    No!

    There's a lot of mythology about the 911 and it being the leader of its category in terms of straight line performance. It's just not true. The 911 has always been about a balanced set of performance measures, not class leading straight line performance. Read the road tests (and not just from U.S.) from 20/30 years ago and you will note that it was the car's all round performance that impressed, not the straight line stats.

    This revisionist perspective is self-serving. some objectivity might help put the 911 into its proper context and for its true qualities to be then properly appreciated.

    If at the end of it the balanced performance characteristics of this car are not what you;re looking for and you can't help but feel inadequate at the stop light then you've missed the point of the car and might be better shopping elsewhere.

    Re: No!

    I just took my stock 997S to a local tuner and had them do an alignment including dialing in 1.8 degrees of negative camber up front and 2.4 degrees in the back. No parts were needed for this.

    She now handles like a GT3 - I kid you not. She's been to the track twice already and her handling is absolutely spectacular. The steering feel, the incredible stopping power, and now such wonderful grip and bite in the turns.

    That's why I'm driving a 911, and why I'm so f*%#ing pleased with my car. I wouldn't trade her for anything else out there in this price range or less.

    YES

    I offer to take your obsolete 911 and allow it to roam free in the country while you guys drive the latest greatest. I'm only thinking of you.

    SMB

    Re: No!

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    There's a lot of mythology about the 911 and it being the leader of its category in terms of straight line performance. It's just not true. The 911 has always been about a balanced set of performance measures, not class leading straight line performance. Read the road tests (and not just from U.S.) from 20/30 years ago and you will note that it was the car's all round performance that impressed, not the straight line stats.

    This revisionist perspective is self-serving. some objectivity might help put the 911 into its proper context and for its true qualities to be then properly appreciated.

    If at the end of it the balanced performance characteristics of this car are not what you;re looking for and you can't help but feel inadequate at the stop light then you've missed the point of the car and might be better shopping elsewhere.



    Yes, yes, yes and again, YES.... You nailed it 'Chef... This thread is dripping in revisionist history and rose-colored rear-view mirrors...

    BTW, 15 years ago a base Corvette, that cost about $29K, could spank a new 911 absolutely silly in a straight line... In 1995 the 993 emerged, and still wouldn't pull with a Corvette... In 1996, Porsche upped the ante again, only for Chevy to introduce the more powerful and rev-happy LT4 that kept the 993 solidly in its rear-view mirror at the drag strip...

    The 996 was no match for the C5 in straight-line...

    Folks, you're complaining about a situation that has been in place for a long long time... Are you just now discovering this, post purchase? What cave were you residing in prior to buying your 997, and at what point in time did you arrive at this notion that older Porsches ruled Woodward Avenue?

    Sorry for bumping this tired thread to the top, but I just got back from a Concours in Ohio (the Glenmoore, nice time... Lot's a cool classic Porsches.... Did you know that Porsche used the "Continental" name on it's bathtubs, and reverted to numeric model designations after Ford won a lawsuit (or at least threatened, I can't remember which...)???? I didn't know that! There was a nice Porche "Continental" there! BTW, I don't think even it stood a chance of winning a drag race against the Fuelie Vette that was there...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    To come complete circle and take this thread back to its original title:

    Rule 1. - The 911 NEVER was best-in-class in all sportscar disciplines, and most certainly not in terms of straightline performance. It may well have been perceived as such by people who saw it from a distance in their youth, aspired to own it some day and formed an idealized image of it in their minds.

    Rule 2. - The 911 has been looked upon as a benchmark by which other sportscars are measured because of its COMBINATION of good characteristics, including chuckability, reliability, durability, but never low price.

    Rule 3. - For this thread to have managed to get so long it is obvious that the current 911 is still the benchmark by which other sportscars are measured, so Rule 2. still applies. This thread only got started because some people were deluded by the idealized image mentioned in Rule 1.

    Rule 4. - Once you acknowledge Rules 1, 2 and 3 then you have achieved the maturity to realize that the 911 is not losing ground because its current iteration still holds the same position it always did.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    fritz great post mate

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    spluff said:
    fritz great post mate



    Been driving Porsches for 30 years (OK, early ones were 924s ) and was never the fastest on the road because M-B and BMW sedans with large-engine options potentially had the power-to-weight to keep up, or pull away if their drivers were prepared to switch off their brains.

    Fact is, even a base-model 911 now has more performance than you can use on our over-crowded public roads for ninety-something percent of our driving time.
    And that even applies here in Germany, the one country left with some stretches of Autobahn without speed restrictions and still (some) other drivers who actually use rear-view mirrors before pulling into the faster lane, because they are accustomed to faster cars being around.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I'll second that.... Great post Fritz...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I'll third it.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    To come complete circle and take this thread back to its original title:

    Rule 1. - The 911 NEVER was best-in-class in all sportscar disciplines, and most certainly not in terms of straightline performance. It may well have been perceived as such by people who saw it from a distance in their youth, aspired to own it some day and formed an idealized image of it in their minds.

    Rule 2. - The 911 has been looked upon as a benchmark by which other sportscars are measured because of its COMBINATION of good characteristics, including chuckability, reliability, durability, but never low price.

    Rule 3. - For this thread to have managed to get so long it is obvious that the current 911 is still the benchmark by which other sportscars are measured, so Rule 2. still applies. This thread only got started because some people were deluded by the idealized image mentioned in Rule 1.

    Rule 4. - Once you acknowledge Rules 1, 2 and 3 then you have achieved the maturity to realize that the 911 is not losing ground because its current iteration still holds the same position it always did.



    spot on! and might I add that its relatively easy to make a sportcar exceed in one particular sportcar discipline at the expense of the others, but the tough part is to make a sportcar exceed in the combination of all disciplines together, and that is why the 911 is still the benchmark to date, to which all other sportcars when they come out are compared to, and why its following gets bigger and bigger over the years panning over generations of sportcar enthusiasts. Not that there isn't and hasn't been great competition to choose from, but at the end of the day, the 911 is the only one that is still here and going strong.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    To come complete circle and take this thread back to its original title:

    Rule 1. - The 911 NEVER was best-in-class in all sportscar disciplines, and most certainly not in terms of straightline performance. It may well have been perceived as such by people who saw it from a distance in their youth, aspired to own it some day and formed an idealized image of it in their minds.

    Rule 2. - The 911 has been looked upon as a benchmark by which other sportscars are measured because of its COMBINATION of good characteristics, including chuckability, reliability, durability, but never low price.

    Rule 3. - For this thread to have managed to get so long it is obvious that the current 911 is still the benchmark by which other sportscars are measured, so Rule 2. still applies. This thread only got started because some people were deluded by the idealized image mentioned in Rule 1.

    Rule 4. - Once you acknowledge Rules 1, 2 and 3 then you have achieved the maturity to realize that the 911 is not losing ground because its current iteration still holds the same position it always did.



    spot on! and might I add that its relatively easy to make a sportcar exceed in one particular sportcar discipline at the expense of the others, but the tough part is to make a sportcar the exceed in the combination of all disciplines together, and that is why the 911 is still the benchmark to date, to which all other sportcars when they come out are compared to, and why its following gets bigger and bigger over the years panning over generations of sportcar enthusiasts. Not that there isn't and hasn't been great competition to choose from, but at the end of the day, the 911 is the only one that is still here and going strong.



    These two posts sum it all up methinks...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Maybe we should make fritz' rules a sticky post

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    John H said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    To come complete circle and take this thread back to its original title:

    Rule 1. - The 911 NEVER was best-in-class in all sportscar disciplines, and most certainly not in terms of straightline performance. It may well have been perceived as such by people who saw it from a distance in their youth, aspired to own it some day and formed an idealized image of it in their minds.

    Rule 2. - The 911 has been looked upon as a benchmark by which other sportscars are measured because of its COMBINATION of good characteristics, including chuckability, reliability, durability, but never low price.

    Rule 3. - For this thread to have managed to get so long it is obvious that the current 911 is still the benchmark by which other sportscars are measured, so Rule 2. still applies. This thread only got started because some people were deluded by the idealized image mentioned in Rule 1.

    Rule 4. - Once you acknowledge Rules 1, 2 and 3 then you have achieved the maturity to realize that the 911 is not losing ground because its current iteration still holds the same position it always did.



    spot on! and might I add that its relatively easy to make a sportcar exceed in one particular sportcar discipline at the expense of the others, but the tough part is to make a sportcar the exceed in the combination of all disciplines together, and that is why the 911 is still the benchmark to date, to which all other sportcars when they come out are compared to, and why its following gets bigger and bigger over the years panning over generations of sportcar enthusiasts. Not that there isn't and hasn't been great competition to choose from, but at the end of the day, the 911 is the only one that is still here and going strong.



    These two posts sum it all up methinks...



    +1

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    ...... its relatively easy to make a sportcar exceed in one particular sportcar discipline at the expense of the others, but the tough part is to make a sportcar exceed in the combination of all disciplines together, and that is why the 911 is still the benchmark to date, to which all other sportcars when they come out are compared to, and why its following gets bigger and bigger over the years panning over generations of sportcar enthusiasts. Not that there isn't and hasn't been great competition to choose from, but at the end of the day, the 911 is the only one that is still here and going strong.



    Carlos, if I had thought it through to the extent you obviously have, I would have included that insight as an additional rule between 3 and 4 in my original post.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Carlos, if I had thought it through to the extent you obviously have, I would have included that insight as an additional rule between 3 and 4 in my original post.





    And the disclaiamer: "Rule 4 need not apply to La Jolla's Starbucks customers"

     
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