Crown

Board: Porsche Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    I read on Rennlist that the CGT will not meet '006 U.S.A. Federal Regulations? Would someone please state and explain the new federal requirements and how the CGT does not comply?

    Also, do the Enzo, Ford GT, SLR, and S7 comply?

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Didn't see it on the CGT forum. Where did you see it?

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    I believe the problem is the requirement for advanced airbags.

    The Enzo has already finished production.

    Manufacturers receive credits for early phase-in of the requirements and Ford and Mercedes make enough vehicles that it shouldn't matter if the GT & SLR don't comply.

    This is info off the top of my head. Please take it w/a grain of salt.

    You can read about the issue here: http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm?CFID=7932530&CFTOKEN=81537406

    Do a keyword search for "Porsche". Then click "Reverse Order" in the results and read through the dockets from 2003.

    Greg A

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Thanks for the research method, teflon

    This is the document in question (click me).

    Notice the cryptic language about "500 cars of Porsche niche models". Seems like they might mean all of MY 2006 Carrera GT planned production if one were to assume that all of them were headed to the USA.

    This issue was mentioned on this board a few years ago, IIRC.

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Mike,

    You're welcome.

    I think I originally heard about it here but then no one ever came forward w/more info (here, Rennlist or 6speed) so I researched it myself. I had always hoped that the info I found would cause someone with more intimate knowledge of the issue to come forward, but that never happened.

    I think the airbag requirement is part of the reason more CGTs are showing up here earlier than expected, but the lack of fulfilling their 1500 sales goal has probably also effected delivery.

    Greg A

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Here's a .pdf of a document nearly the same as above as an attachment.

    Click on the "Attachment" notation above to see it.

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Greg,

    I just cruised through the search function you provided by entering "15067" as a docket number. I found something sort of cryptic as a final decision regarding Porsche's complaint and request for reconsideration:

    "Need for Correction
    As published, the May 2003 final rule
    contained an error that needs correction.
    The May 2003 final rule expanded the
    definition of limited line manufacturer
    in FMVSS No. 208 for the first stage of
    the advanced air bag phase-in, but the
    final rule failed to amend the definition
    of limited line manufacturer contained
    in 49 CFR part 585. Part 585 establishes
    the reporting requirements for the
    advanced air bag phase-ins. Under the
    May 2000 and May 2003 final rules,
    Paragraph 585.4(g) defines limited line
    manufacturer as a ''manufacturer that
    sells two or fewer carlines, as that term
    is defined in 49 CFR 583.4, in the
    United States during a production
    year.''
    This correction amends the definition
    of limited line manufacture in Paragraph 585.4 to
    include manufacturers of three or fewer
    carlines for the first stage of the phasein."

    This sounds like Porsche might have been able to get what they wanted by falling within a new definition of "limited line manufacturer".

    What's your take?

    P.S. The .pdf of the Federal Register is attached.

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Does anyone know the status of this issue? Has Porsche managed to get exemption for 2006 as well?

    I heard from some sources that Porsche is speeding production to meet all US allocation. So that is why there are cars showing up in the US early that hasn't been spoken for. And indeed there will be no CGTs heading to the US after Jan 06, although this hasn't been made official yet.

    Does anyone know if Porsche can still meet all the orginally intented allocation, or will that have to be cut short? It seems difficult from a production point of view for Porsche to suddenly increase production for an entire year's of CGTs to meet all US allocations.

    Thanks,
    Baron

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Quote:
    baron said:
    Does anyone know the status of this issue? Has Porsche managed to get exemption for 2006 as well?

    I heard from some sources that Porsche is speeding production to meet all US allocation. So that is why there are cars showing up in the US early that hasn't been spoken for. And indeed there will be no CGTs heading to the US after Jan 06, although this hasn't been made official yet.

    Does anyone know if Porsche can still meet all the orginally intented allocation, or will that have to be cut short? It seems difficult from a production point of view for Porsche to suddenly increase production for an entire year's of CGTs to meet all US allocations.

    Thanks,
    Baron



    Yep, I'm just not sure. I've heard 7/05 is the last production date for US CGTs and that they are sending Euro allocations here to meet the 750 cars originally planned for 3 years in 2 years instead. If that's the case and Porsche dumps 3 years worth of production on the US in two years, you can rest assured the Europeans with the dough necessary to buy one, will start buying slightly used ones in the US for $350 to $375k USD (or less if Porsche dumps 750 in 2 years here) with a 4 year warranty with dollars which will equate to a MUCH lower Euro price they'd pay in Europe. I'd originally hoped Porsche would voluntarily stop production 7/05 given how poor the CGT market has been, but I think the market will stop worldwide production for them.

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Mike,

    First of all, I forgot to congratulate you on finally receiving your CGT! I had hoped to be making the trip to Mid-OH for the OVR region DE this year, and maybe getting to meet you there, but I have other commitments that weekend.

    I saw the amendment while I was looking around too. I only half read it because my eyes glaze over and I start to drool whenever I see something that resembles legalese.

    It took me a while to re-read the amendment and look around for any additional info, but unfortunately, I still couldn't find a definitive answer.

    The rule states that a limited line manufacturer sells 3 or fewer carlines in the U.S. during a production year. My reading of that definition indicates that Porsche still wouldn't qualify because for the period of 2004-2005 they are producing the following: 1.911 2.Boxster 3.Cayenne and 4.CGT.

    Also, as I'm sure you saw on the site, Porsche's petition for reconsideration was stamped June 18, 2003. It is my understanding that even with the rule clarification, this petition was denied, but I can't find a NHTSA response.


    Greg A

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Quote:
    teflon said:
    I believe the problem is the requirement for advanced airbags.




    Teflon,

    Are advanced airbags those that sense 1) the weight of the front passenger and 2) whether the front passenger seat belt is in use?

    Is this the only requirement with which the CGT fails to comply?

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    The advanced airbag requirements technology-wise isn't a problem for Porsche, they knew back in 2000 what the regulations were going to be. I think the real issue is they now have to crash a whole bunch of cars (i think its 5 minimum, possibly times two?) for each class of dummy. You can no longer get away with only one crash using a 50th percentile male dummy. You now have to take women and children into account when testing airbags and that means a bunch more CGTs would need to be crash tested.

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Maverick,

    I hope the following will help answer your question. This info came from a Delphi pdf(CLICK HERE).
    Quote:
    Delphi's STAR Airbag will help vehicle manufacturers meet or exceed the current U.S. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard(FMVSS 208), which requires advanced airbag systems for all models by the 2007 model year. Specifically, the regulation calls for enhanced protection of the vehicle occupants regardless of their size or whether they are wearing seat belts. Initial implementation of the requirement begins with 2004 model year vehicles sold in the United States



    AFAIK, this is the only requirement that the CGT fails, but it was enough to be a problem for Porsche.

    Greg A

    EDIT: I copied the wrong link. It should be fixed now.

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Quote:
    doncapecod said:
    Didn't see it on the CGT forum. Where did you see it?



    Sorry, doncapecod. I forgot to answer your question. I saw it in the CGT forum under the thread titled "New C-GT Price."

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Quote:
    teflon said:
    Maverick,
    I hope the following will help answer your question.



    Thank you very much, Greg A and the rest of you. I now understand the situation well.

    Re: CGT & '006 U.S. Federal Regulations

    Maverick,

    You're welcome. I'm glad I could help.

    Greg A

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part I) Thread Closed 9/24/20 12:47 AM
    watt
    618891 2849
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/30/20 9:03 AM
    rhino
     
     
     
     
     
    384508 1279
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 6/8/21 7:15 PM
    JR-550
    89551 1087
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 5/12/21 3:30 PM
    WhoopsyM
    47175 344
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    36308 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/19/20 6:12 PM
    Leawood911
    34200 380
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 6/19/21 2:48 AM
    watt
    18843 391
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    5177 29
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 7/27/20 2:13 AM
    DJM48
    576013 5257
    Porsche Cayman GT4 5/4/21 4:46 PM
    Topspeed
    435037 3586
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 4/25/21 4:04 PM
    Topspeed
    370021 3916
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 5/27/21 6:14 PM
    Topspeed
    369753 3495
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 4/28/21 12:26 PM
    W8MM
    331585 3252
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/8/20 7:51 PM
    DJM48
    311608 2646
    Porsche Tesla Roadster 9/23/20 8:22 PM
    bluelines
    250151 4279
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 2/28/21 8:05 PM
    Topspeed
    234504 1542
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    162707 1379
    Others Alfa Romeo 4C 9/23/20 10:22 AM
    RCA
    138939 792
    Porsche 992 GT3 6/20/21 2:43 AM
    Targa Tim
    136817 2622
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    111700 1225
    McLaren F1 2/25/21 11:33 AM
    RCA
    77849 207
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 5/19/21 5:19 PM
    Leawood911
    76224 1167
    AMG AMG GT R 11/19/20 11:47 PM
    Topspeed
    66183 819
    Lambo Aventador and SV 4/20/21 3:21 PM
    CGX car nut
    65312 683
    Porsche 991 Speedster 9/3/20 4:29 PM
    Topspeed
    61824 878
    Porsche Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan 11/23/20 6:10 PM
    Topspeed
    45926 596
    Others Bugatti Chiron 6/9/21 6:51 AM
    Jean
    37767 479
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    34715 615
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 5/30/21 9:51 PM
    waiting for PDK
    34001 522
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 3/21/21 5:01 PM
    Topspeed
    29376 385
    272 items found, displaying 1 to 30.