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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Couldn't even do one lap without overheating...

    And who cares? It is not what the car was designed for...

    Sorry but that excuse goes out the window the moment they advertise a "track mode" on the car ffs, it is like a car with a "off road" mode and can't even get up a small dirt hill.

    But then again they also advertise an "autonomous" mode when in fact it is not autonomous, and causes many idiots who believe it to crash because they use is as such...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Couldn't even do one lap without overheating...

    And who cares? It is not what the car was designed for...

    Sorry but that excuse goes out the window the moment they advertise a "track mode" on the car ffs, it is like a car with a "off road" mode and can't even get up a small dirt hill.

    My old Cayenne turbo - was not possible to climb 1m (max 30%)  (!!!) on grass. The profile of the tires get filled with grass and then it was like having slicks.


    --

    AM


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Couldn't even do one lap without overheating...

    And who cares? It is not what the car was designed for...

    Sorry but that excuse goes out the window the moment they advertise a "track mode" on the car ffs, it is like a car with a "off road" mode and can't even get up a small dirt hill.

    But then again they also advertise an "autonomous" mode when in fact it is not autonomous, and causes many idiots who believe it to crash because they use is as such...

    1. Track-Mode was not even ON in that posted video nor was the latest software update that will allow for persistent torque and power and increased top speed.

    2. Regarding Autopilot... an idiot will always be an idiot. I'm sure the Tesla Autopilot have saved a few idiots from crashing. I have used Autopilot a lot and it is the best system out there for relaxing driving.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Couldn't even do one lap without overheating...

    And who cares? It is not what the car was designed for...

    But it’s what Elon billed his Tesla to be about, a performance car. When a performance car can’t even do 1 lap of the Ring, it’s not a performance car.

    unless of course in the eyes of Elon, performance only means going fast from rest in a straight line, and don’t worry about the stopping part or the turning part Smiley

     


    Have you even tested the Model 3 Performance?

    I can assure you that the car is a real gem in the corners too and feels planted and agile compared with other cars in the same size class. Actually really really fun car to drive and up there with the cars that put smiles on your face driving spirited. The instant torque, good turn-in and Teslas calibration of the software to the four wheels actually make it more fun than many petrol cars to drive just because of its own personal characteristics.

    It might not be a NBR-machine, but on shorter tracks it will be a lot of fun for owners I can assure you. And like I mentioned in another post, the car in the NBR-video posted in here was not even on Track-Mode nor had the latest SW-update.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    Also all the gadgetry in them gets old very fast and stops being amusing after a while, just like any electronic gadget. Can you imagine an EV car being a coveted classic in later years? Don't think so, no substance, just gadgets.

     

    How do you feel about your small low-res PCM in your 991? Doesn't that feel dated?  How will that be a coveted classic in later years? It wont, because it's a main stream mass produced car, just like any 911 of the later generations... 

    With OTA updates as a dna of the car it will at least age better and feel fresh during a longer period of time. A Tesla for instance from 2013 still get updates. Compare that with a Porsche from 2013...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Also all the gadgetry in them gets old very fast and stops being amusing after a while, just like any electronic gadget. Can you imagine an EV car being a coveted classic in later years? Don't think so, no substance, just gadgets.

     

    How do you feel about your small low-res PCM in your 991? Doesn't that feel dated?  How will that be a coveted classic in later years? It wont, because it's a main stream mass produced car, just like any 911 of the later generations... 

    No problems with the PCM in my list of priorities, it suits my needs just fine don't really miss anything important, like I said, the moment I start focusing on those things that much when I drive, you can shoot me and put me out of my misery.

    As to current 911s being coveted in later years, EV's will be a dime a dozen in later years all ALL more modern and better in every way than current ones, there is absolutely no reason to drive an old one in later years, but 911s even though will improve in later gens, will still have an appeal to drive like classic 911's today, it is not about exclusivity and numbers, it is because they won't make them like this in the future for legislation and other reasons, so I can see myself still driving one along side a modern version in the future. The current EV's however will be all in the junkyard in later years because they will have no appeal compared to new ones, just like last year's gadget that you throw in a drawer after you get a new one.

    With OTA updates as a dna of the car it will at least age better and feel fresh during a longer period of time. A Tesla for instance from 2013 still get updates. Compare that with a Porsche from 2013...

    What is important in a car for me cannot be updated over the air, a Casio with OTAs will not age better than a Rolex.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The only thing I use the PCM for is radio, and the radio is the only thing I use in all my other cars infotainment systems. I would use my phone for navigating if needed and I don't need to browse internet or watch TV when I am driving so the whole thingt of having the best infotainment system is the least of my concerns as well.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Saw a few e-tron at my Audi dealer . The car is big, weights 2800 kg heart, has less inside room them a Q7 ,  has no front trunk .  A nice inside .

    First time I ever saw the virtual side mirror option on a production car :

    1554895042409IMG_6551.jpg

    IMG_6552.jpg


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I've seen it too, don't see it as very practical as an overall package, but at least it's looks is something I can can live with behind its wheel doesn't look like I'm driving a bloated Prius or a minivan...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Agree.  It is the first of many EVs from the premium manufacturers and a very good first effort especially when the entire ecosystem is examined.   Why spend $100,000 on a vehicle from a builder with an unstable sales and service network?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    All you need to know about the E-Tron is EPA range 206 miles in optimal driving conditions... I could not live with a car with such a small range, it will be 130 miles in real world in winter... with no reserve... pretty harsh for a $85k optioned Q5...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Speaking of the e-tron: A YouTuber tested the e-tron on the Autobahn, driving as much as possible at Vmax (200 kph or 125 mph). He drove at an average speed of 163 kph over a distance of 124 km before the car starting to cut off power, leaving him with a 6 km range.

    Meaning: Range was 130 km. Smiley Nothing more to say.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    That's why we will see soon speed limited cars . There is actually no point in non sports cars , to be able to drive over 160 km/h .  Even if you want to drive fast , traffic does not allow it most of the time and that is going to get worst wand worst anyway .

    Today, in a very  big  3 lanes roundabout , I was left behind by a Tesla S, when we both entered it and had to accelerate fast as cars where coming . I could not follow with my 911 around that corner .


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Gnil:

    That's why we will see soon speed limited cars . There is actually no point in non sports cars , to be able to drive over 160 km/h .  Even if you want to drive fast , traffic does not allow it most of the time and that is going to get worst wand worst anyway .

    Today, in a very  big  3 lanes roundabout , I was left behind by a Tesla S, when we both entered it and had to accelerate fast as cars where coming . I could not follow with my 911 around that corner .

    I get that often, Tesla’s wanting to race me. I ignore them to the point I slow down. 


    --

    There is nothing stronger than gentleness.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    nberry:

    I get that often, Tesla’s wanting to race me. I ignore them to the point I slow down. 

    It was not necessary a race, we both had to accelerate hard to get into that very big roundabout in order to avoid the coming cars . Then , most probably, he carried on accelerating more in order to be in front of me for the next exit .

    My point was actually to show that the Tesla is good enough in most driving conditions , as in and around urban areas , where most people live .   


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:

    Speaking of the e-tron: A YouTuber tested the e-tron on the Autobahn, driving as much as possible at Vmax (200 kph or 125 mph). He drove at an average speed of 163 kph over a distance of 124 km before the car starting to cut off power, leaving him with a 6 km range.

    Meaning: Range was 130 km. Smiley Nothing more to say.

    Consumption was about 600 Wh/km, which is roughly 50% more than a P100D, Kudos to Audi for enabling such a high permanent load . Still,  I don't think that this is a relevant metric for an ELV. Considering the ever increasing traffic and speed limits in most parts of the world, it might not be a relevant metric for any car.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    And after all that talk, range is still an issue with EV, they simply cannot beat ICE cars. Or hybrids for that matters.

    And hybrids are the best of both world right now, until EV tech can advance more.

    Are Tesla great? Nope, absolutely not, but they are good enough, Is the E-tron great? Nope also, it's only good enough. Is the Taycan great? Nope also, just good enough.

    At the end of the day, EVs are electric appliances. A Tesla is a toaster that will toast bread in 45 seconds. A Taycan is another toaster that will toast the bread in 50 seconds but it can also heat up pizza and still and have Porsche Design exterior.  

    At first I thought I would like a street legal electric golf cart, hence why I ordered a Taycan. It is now canceled. I realized just like on a golf course, I much prefer the combustion engine sound. Yes the electric golf cart has better pick up from rest, and pin me back to the seat, but it is SILENT!!! Totally not enjoyable for me, the guy teeing off likes it cause it doesn't startle him, but down the fairway I am missing the sound. IF only the golf cart is a hybrid golf cart, I can go silently around tee boxes and once I am down the fairway I just open it up.

    It's a really sad day when governments wanted to control emission and forced EVs onto the general public to try and control emission. But last I checked, Krakatoa's eruption expelled more green house gases than every single automobile ever produced and ever emitted but a long mile, I didn't see governments penalizing the volcano.angry

    Like seriously, when is someone going to face the music, that the Earth CONTROLS itself, not humans. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    And after all that talk, range is still an issue with EV, they simply cannot beat ICE cars. Or hybrids for that matters.

    And hybrids are the best of both world right now, until EV tech can advance more.

    Are Tesla great? Nope, absolutely not, but they are good enough, Is the E-tron great? Nope also, it's only good enough. Is the Taycan great? Nope also, just good enough.

    At the end of the day, EVs are electric appliances. A Tesla is a toaster that will toast bread in 45 seconds. A Taycan is another toaster that will toast the bread in 50 seconds but it can also heat up pizza and still and have Porsche Design exterior.  

    At first I thought I would like a street legal electric golf cart, hence why I ordered a Taycan. It is now canceled. I realized just like on a golf course, I much prefer the combustion engine sound. Yes the electric golf cart has better pick up from rest, and pin me back to the seat, but it is SILENT!!! Totally not enjoyable for me, the guy teeing off likes it cause it doesn't startle him, but down the fairway I am missing the sound. IF only the golf cart is a hybrid golf cart, I can go silently around tee boxes and once I am down the fairway I just open it up.

    It's a really sad day when governments wanted to control emission and forced EVs onto the general public to try and control emission. But last I checked, Krakatoa's eruption expelled more green house gases than every single automobile ever produced and ever emitted but a long mile, I didn't see governments penalizing the volcano.angry

    Like seriously, when is someone going to face the music, that the Earth CONTROLS itself, not humans. 

    Intesting golf cart analogy. I felt the same when you compare go-kart racing... an electric kart has better pick up from rest, but the lack of an engine sound really detracts from the enjoyment. Smiley

    The sound of engine is like the beating heart of an animal. No wonder EV manufacturers are experimenting with artificial noise to try to give the a bit of character.

    Andreas Preuninger says a big consideration for GT and RS models is the emotional link to the driver! Smiley

    If you're not convinced, drive a GT3 or RS through a tunnel in sports mode with the windows down...  1554541446878image.gif

    A sporty car that doesn't connect with the driver is a bit pointless. Indeed, just as football, basketball, baseball, F1, Le Mans, or a music concert is more exciting live, or at least with the sound turned up! Smiley

    Out of interest, how long are the current generation of EVs expected to last before the batteries run out of useful life? What do you do with a ten-year old Tesla that has run out of battery capacity and warranty coverage? Smiley

    It's possible governments may re-consider regulations when the lifecycle impact of EVs start to become apparent... Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    >>Out of interest, how long are the current generation of EVs expected to last before the batteries run out of useful life? 

    Like with ICE cars, that very much depends on how you treat them. The life time of the current battery generation is limited by the number of charging cycles. There are quite some Teslas with more than 300.000km and the first battery pack; degradation is slower than initially anticipated; in the range of 10% to 20% for that milage. Recycling  Li batteries is still in its infancy and the reuse of degraded packs as energy storage for private homes is a wet dream for now.  But things are changing quickly with all the investments in that area, esp in China.  I'm sure, that no one knows if it will work in the end. 

    Here is a spreadsheet maintained by Tesla owners showing quite detailed battery information. One of the German Tesla forums maintains a list of "km Kings" (Akku = Battery, DU = Drive Unit)


    Platz 1: hans63, 818.188 km (14.03.2019)
    EZ: 08/2013, 2. Akku nach 380.000 km, 2. DU nach 75.000 km, 3. DU nach 129.000 km

    Platz 2: Eberhard, 377.000 km (21.08.2018)
    EZ: 08/2013, 2. Akku nach 81.000, 2. DU nach 91.000, 3. DU nach 163.000, 4. DU nach 203.000

    Platz 3: FR113, 341.393 km (31.01.2019)
    EZ: 03/2014, 2. Akku nach 51.000, 2. DU nach 51.000, 3. DU nach 102.000, 4. DU nach 171.000

    Platz 4: Dazzler, 340.000 km (13.03.2019)
    EZ: 2013, 2. Akku nach 50.000, X. DU

    Platz 5: ggo, 284.600 km (23.05.2018)
    EZ: 09/2014, 1. Akku , 2. DU nach 20.000, 3. DU nach 50.000
    (In Besitz seit 6/2017, vorher als Taxi in Wien)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Couldn't even do one lap without overheating...

    And who cares? It is not what the car was designed for...

    But it’s what Elon billed his Tesla to be about, a performance car. When a performance car can’t even do 1 lap of the Ring, it’s not a performance car.

    unless of course in the eyes of Elon, performance only means going fast from rest in a straight line, and don’t worry about the stopping part or the turning part Smiley

     

    Musk calling the Teslas "Performance" cars is like flicking the Sport button on a mid size SUV. It's a marketing placebo to make people feel like they're getting more out of their car. The thing is that, because the torque and straight line performance that Teslas have, people believe they can beat actual Sports cars. And to most people that's enough. 99% of people don't even know what the Ring is, and Musk doesn't care a single bit about what that remaining 1% think of his product, it's not his target audience.

    Even the roadster is not meant for real sport's car buyers, it's meant for the same tech focused wealthy people who just want to have the new gadget, this one just happens to be a bigger more expensive one that takes off really fast. But I guarantee you that the same way people are dropping brand new 488's to get the F8 just because it's the "new thing",  a bunch of Tesla owners went from S, to X, to 3 regardless of the car actually being what fit's their needs. And a lot of the Roadster buyers are rolling around in a 3 right now. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Boxster Coupe GTS:
    Whoopsy:

    And after all that talk, range is still an issue with EV, they simply cannot beat ICE cars. Or hybrids for that matters.

    And hybrids are the best of both world right now, until EV tech can advance more.

    Are Tesla great? Nope, absolutely not, but they are good enough, Is the E-tron great? Nope also, it's only good enough. Is the Taycan great? Nope also, just good enough.

    At the end of the day, EVs are electric appliances. A Tesla is a toaster that will toast bread in 45 seconds. A Taycan is another toaster that will toast the bread in 50 seconds but it can also heat up pizza and still and have Porsche Design exterior.  

    At first I thought I would like a street legal electric golf cart, hence why I ordered a Taycan. It is now canceled. I realized just like on a golf course, I much prefer the combustion engine sound. Yes the electric golf cart has better pick up from rest, and pin me back to the seat, but it is SILENT!!! Totally not enjoyable for me, the guy teeing off likes it cause it doesn't startle him, but down the fairway I am missing the sound. IF only the golf cart is a hybrid golf cart, I can go silently around tee boxes and once I am down the fairway I just open it up.

    It's a really sad day when governments wanted to control emission and forced EVs onto the general public to try and control emission. But last I checked, Krakatoa's eruption expelled more green house gases than every single automobile ever produced and ever emitted but a long mile, I didn't see governments penalizing the volcano.angry

    Like seriously, when is someone going to face the music, that the Earth CONTROLS itself, not humans. 

    Intesting golf cart analogy. I felt the same when you compare go-kart racing... an electric kart has better pick up from rest, but the lack of an engine sound really detracts from the enjoyment. Smiley

    The sound of engine is like the beating heart of an animal. No wonder EV manufacturers are experimenting with artificial noise to try to give the a bit of character.

    Andreas Preuninger says a big consideration for GT and RS models is the emotional link to the driver! Smiley

    If you're not convinced, drive a GT3 or RS through a tunnel in sports mode with the windows down...  1554541446878image.gif

    A sporty car that doesn't connect with the driver is a bit pointless. Indeed, just as football, basketball, baseball, F1, Le Mans, or a music concert is more exciting live, or at least with the sound turned up! Smiley

    Out of interest, how long are the current generation of EVs expected to last before the batteries run out of useful life? What do you do with a ten-year old Tesla that has run out of battery capacity and warranty coverage? Smiley

    It's possible governments may re-consider regulations when the lifecycle impact of EVs start to become apparent... Smiley

     

    An EV is basically a glorified electric golf cart, nothing more. Once the sound is taken away, the emotional connection is gone, the car because just an electric appliance for taking people from point A to point B, and with some charging, bring the person back to point A.

    Battery tech will advance for sure, and that's something OTA can't fix. Look at cell phones, the battery life really drops off  with age.

    A 10-15 year old Tesla, or ay other EV for that matters, will be nothing more than environmental hazard, that battery is toxic to the environment.

    My Turbo 3.6 is 25 years old, but it drives exactly like it was when it was brad new. No EV will come close to that.

     

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    As the car came along I’m certain many felt it would never replace the friendship and heartbeat of a horse. So they created loud motors and fast cornering cars. People had already adopted machines in other parts of their lives so the transition now seems minor when we look back. The new generation is all about games and computers.  Gadgets if you will. Their sound is whatever you imagine it to be if that is what you want but for today’s generation making a Tesla sound like a Lambo is like making a car smell like horse poo for old times sake.  They will transition to EV from their iPhones and video games and never be interested in what the 1% (us) care about. Musk would be a poor businessman if he spend much time caring about this 1% other than to show the other 99% he can run circles around them at will.  At any rate, cars of all flavors will continue to be around. I don’t blame governments for EVs being favored,that is on the citizens who voted for these lawmakers. Keep in mind that ICE may have been unfairly hindering EVs all these years via legislation which aided their industry. In the end we have some pretty great choices and we will see more as the next generation has good and expensive tastes. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:
    RC:

    Speaking of the e-tron: A YouTuber tested the e-tron on the Autobahn, driving as much as possible at Vmax (200 kph or 125 mph). He drove at an average speed of 163 kph over a distance of 124 km before the car starting to cut off power, leaving him with a 6 km range.

    Meaning: Range was 130 km. Smiley Nothing more to say.

    Consumption was about 600 Wh/km, which is roughly 50% more than a P100D, Kudos to Audi for enabling such a high permanent load . Still,  I don't think that this is a relevant metric for an ELV. Considering the ever increasing traffic and speed limits in most parts of the world, it might not be a relevant metric for any car.

    A general speed limit will come to Germany sooner or later and not because people want one but because the car industry will ask for it, I said it before. Car manufacturers have to limit the top speeds of their EVs to preserve a somewhat decent range. I got only 170 km range out of the Tesla S P100D I test-drove, go figure. This is not a range you can advertise. 

    EVs will be the reason for a general speed limit in Germany, mark my words. Won't be long, maybe another 3-5 years.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    All I read is “emotions” and “connecting to the car” and at the same time all I read is that the 992 is muted and neutral, more GT than ever... And the Panamera turbo I drove was boring and disconnected...

    I totally get the feeling, I own a very loud AM V8 that is superb sound and provides it, and a V12 Ferrari... But for “normal” cars, these emotions are getting more and more toned down, daily driver cars are close to silent already. So to me all these arguments above don’t hold water except for a very small % of the population.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    All I read is “emotions” and “connecting to the car” and at the same time all I read is that the 992 is muted and neutral, more GT than ever... And the Panamera turbo I drove was boring and disconnected...

    Now you know why I have no Porsche anymore and why, very likely, most users here bought a GT3/GT3RS/GT2RS whatever instead.

    I totally get the feeling, I own a very loud AM V8 that is superb sound and provides it, and a V12 Ferrari... But for “normal” cars, these emotions are getting more and more toned down, daily driver cars are close to silent already. So to me all these arguments above don’t hold water except for a very small % of the population.

    I enjoy my E63 S as a daily driver because even if I'm tired and drive back home from work, I enjoy the car tremendously. If I add even more boredom to my way home, I fall asleep. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    This is a bad sign.

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Tesla-and-Panasonic-freeze-spending-on-4.5bn-Gigafactory


    --

    There is nothing stronger than gentleness.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    nberry:

    This is a bad sign.

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Tesla-and-Panasonic-freeze-spending-on-4.5bn-Gigafactory

    Two possibilities: Tesla will be bought by another car manufacturer or Tesla gets involved in a cooperation. We'll see but Elon Musk seems to need money.

    Third possibility would be rather unpleasant, so I won't even mention it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    FYI Panasonic officially denied the story...

    FCA should buy Tesla, or someone else. But the way capital market works these days, it would be more likely that Tesla buys FCA since they can raise money Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

     

    FCA should buy Tesla, or someone else. But the way capital market works these days, it would be more likely that Tesla buys FCA since they can raise money Smiley

    If they could they would have done already. Very difficult times ahead Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    FYI Panasonic officially denied the story...

    FCA should buy Tesla, or someone else. But the way capital market works these days, it would be more likely that Tesla buys FCA since they can raise money Smiley

     

    No sane person will be buying Tesla at their current valuation. The buy out price for Tesla is like half their current valuation and with a 100% premium.


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