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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Porsche may pick production chief as CEO this week

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/28/us-volkswagen-emissions-porsche-idUSKCN0RS20P20150928


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:
    reginos:

    It is reported that the affected cars, all 2.0 TDI are 5million VW and 11million VW Group in total. VW are saying that these cars will be located and remedial work will be offered.

    We have two 2.0 TDI in our family. So if the remedial work is after removing the offending software VW would proceed to reducing emissions through a new engine management which will mean that the engine output and performance of the cars will be reduced. I don't think this will be acceptable to us as owners, unless we would have to accept under some kind of legislation in which case as owners would seek some kind of reparation from VW-Audi-Skoda-SEAT that use the 2.0 TDI engines.

    Whatever happens VW will pay dearly in money and reputation and moreover the whole "made in Germany" image will not be the same from now on probably affecting corporations beyond the automotive industry.  I guess many millions of Germans must be living out of the VW Group and a number are bound to suffer job losses etc. as sales take a tumble. The problematic Eurozone could be also in danger.

    If I were Merkel I would tackle the whole affair from the political angle and try to strike a damage limitation deal with the US government. The problems of individual corporations rarely rise to the level of geopolitics but VW is too large to fail not only for Germany but for half a dozen more countries in Europe where VW have plants and/or supply sources. Playing the geopolitical card with the Americans always works.

     

    Loss of performance - and possibly economy as well - wouldn't be acceptable to me either. In which case we have been miss-sold a product which is then recoverable in law.

    The US investigation indicated that fuel consumption was improved when the "cheat" software was in operation, meaning that CO2 emissions would also be reduced to the same degree, since CO2 emissions and fuel consumed are directly related. 
     


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Saw this today:

    1443476290804image.jpg

     

    On average, two-thirds of the claimed gains in CO2 emissions and fuel consumption since 2008 have been delivered through manipulating tests with only 13.3 g/km of real progress on the roads set against 22.2 g/km of ‘hot air’, according to the report. This means that in the last three years there has been no improvement in fuel economy from new vehicles on the road. Only Toyota would have met its 2015 target without exploiting test flexibilities whereas all the other major carmakers have met their legal limits through exploiting test loopholes.

    http://www.ademloos.be/nieuws/some-mercedes-bmw-and-peugeot-models-consuming-around-50-more-fuel-official-results-new-study

     

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    As the article mentions, this isn't the same as installing a "defeat device", they're just highlighting the "gaming of the system" that's been going on for years, which by definition is not cheating.

    The thing about this is that whatever testing system you put in place, automakers will always study it, understand it, and design cars to get the best performance and best test results. That's inevitable. The tests will always favor certain design decisions over others, and the automakers are always going to figure out which decisions are best. So, I don't really blame the automakers for this, it's primarily the fault of the testers who set up the poorly designed testing rule that automakers are designing to. And, of course automakers oppose changing the rule, because it will cost them a lot of money to study, understand, and design to the new rule, and in the meantime, it will wreak havoc in the industry, after everyone has spent years and billions committing to, for example, turbocharging as the best way to do well in tests under the current rule.

    But, it looks like all of the automakers may be going to feel some pain now as they all get swept up in the anger over VW's cheat.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    dreamcar:
    reginos:

    It is reported that the affected cars, all 2.0 TDI are 5million VW and 11million VW Group in total. VW are saying that these cars will be located and remedial work will be offered.

    We have two 2.0 TDI in our family. So if the remedial work is after removing the offending software VW would proceed to reducing emissions through a new engine management which will mean that the engine output and performance of the cars will be reduced. I don't think this will be acceptable to us as owners, unless we would have to accept under some kind of legislation in which case as owners would seek some kind of reparation from VW-Audi-Skoda-SEAT that use the 2.0 TDI engines.

    Whatever happens VW will pay dearly in money and reputation and moreover the whole "made in Germany" image will not be the same from now on probably affecting corporations beyond the automotive industry.  I guess many millions of Germans must be living out of the VW Group and a number are bound to suffer job losses etc. as sales take a tumble. The problematic Eurozone could be also in danger.

    If I were Merkel I would tackle the whole affair from the political angle and try to strike a damage limitation deal with the US government. The problems of individual corporations rarely rise to the level of geopolitics but VW is too large to fail not only for Germany but for half a dozen more countries in Europe where VW have plants and/or supply sources. Playing the geopolitical card with the Americans always works.

     

    Loss of performance - and possibly economy as well - wouldn't be acceptable to me either. In which case we have been miss-sold a product which is then recoverable in law.

    The US investigation indicated that fuel consumption was improved when the "cheat" software was in operation, meaning that CO2 emissions would also be reduced to the same degree, since CO2 emissions and fuel consumed are directly related. 
     

    I can see that - in which case why not leave the "cheat" software running continuously? What is the advantage of it working only when in test conditions? Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Loss of engine output I would imagine, to a level which in real conditions would have been unacceptable.

    On a different matter, these engines use Urea injection to reduce NOx emissions. The AdBlue and the Mercedes Blutec perform this function. If the trick software was removed perhaps more urea could be injected into the engines. The only side effect would be to refill after say 5.000 km instead of 15.000 km in which case VW would have to reduce the price of their additive to compensate.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    • These engines didn't use a urea injection system, they were claimed to not require it, saving VW ~$430/car and customers ongoing maintenance costs.
    • With the "defeat device" enabled -- i.e., with emission controls full on -- they test legal without requiring urea injection.
    • With the "defeat device" disabled -- i.e., with emission controls full off -- they run with emissions at up to 40 times the legal level.
    • They only get the advertised performance and fuel economy with the emission controls full off.

    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    European 2.0 TDI engines have the Urea injection but from what we understand they still have the defeat device installed.

    The information so far is somewhat convoluted as no owner I believe has been approached officially by any of the VW companies. I asked two days ago at Audi and they told me that they await advices/instructions  from Audi AG.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Someone must be pissed at VAG group and wanted to fire up things, starting with VW TDi engines followed by the death of P.Walker in CGT


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    European 2.0 TDI engines have the Urea injection but from what we understand they still have the defeat device installed.

    The information so far is somewhat convoluted as no owner I believe has been approached officially by any of the VW companies. I asked two days ago at Audi and they told me that they await advices/instructions  from Audi AG.

    In Germany, VW Group needs to answer to KBA (the authority responsible for technical stuff) until Oct. 5th or Oct. 7th I think. After that, the KBA could theoretically stop all affected vehicles from driving on public roads but I guess VW will deliver the necessary response (incl. the steps needed to fix this).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    European 2.0 TDI engines have the Urea injection but from what we understand they still have the defeat device installed.

    The information so far is somewhat convoluted as no owner I believe has been approached officially by any of the VW companies. I asked two days ago at Audi and they told me that they await advices/instructions  from Audi AG.

    I don't think you can expect much concrete information at short notice on this issue. The following extract from an EPA bulletin tells you something about the time scale to be expected for resolving the situation in the USA. Any action involving car owners which might be called for in Europe or elsewhere can also be expected to take that long for the reasons given.EPA.JPG

    If anyone's interested, the EPA bulletin can be found here:

    http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/violations.htm


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    That will take a very long time then!

    In the end it might not be technically feasible to reduce emissions to the required levels AND to maintain the other engine characteristics to the originally specified values. In this eventuality the problems will be huge between VW and its customers.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    That will take a very long time then!

    In the end it might not be technically feasible to reduce emissions to the required levels AND to maintain the other engine characteristics to the originally specified values. In this eventuality the problems will be huge between VW and its customers.

    At the moment we don't even know what influence the trick software had on EU emissions tests, do we?  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Today, an engineer in a tv interview asked the very same question I asked here in the forum a couple of days ago: In the case VW fixes the problem, what happens if the affected and fixed cars will actually have a worse performance, which (according to this engineer) is very likely if VW is serious about the emissions limitations.

    This would actually allow customers to give the car back to VW. Theoretically. 

    The fix may cost VW more than they realize for now.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    reginos:

    That will take a very long time then!

    In the end it might not be technically feasible to reduce emissions to the required levels AND to maintain the other engine characteristics to the originally specified values. In this eventuality the problems will be huge between VW and its customers.

    At the moment we don't even know what influence the trick software had on EU emissions tests, do we?  Smiley

    I cannot imagine how NOx can be 40 times more whilst CO2 stays the same. Logically EU emissions have been falsified too.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:

    That will take a very long time then!

    In the end it might not be technically feasible to reduce emissions to the required levels AND to maintain the other engine characteristics to the originally specified values. In this eventuality the problems will be huge between VW and its customers.

    At the moment we don't even know what influence the trick software had on EU emissions tests, do we?  Smiley

    I cannot imagine how NOx can be 40 times more whilst CO2 stays the same. Logically EU emissions have been falsified too.

    Smiley
    From the published report on the American tests we know that, counter-intuitively, fuel consumption and therefore CO2 output was reduced when the NOx emission values increased due to the cheat software. Worse values for one do not go hand-in-hand with worse values for the other. 

    My question above really was meant as a question: Do we know anything yet as to what effect the possible use of the defeat device was meant to have in European car? Was it the same as for EPA tests, or did differing test requirements lead to different objectives? I haven't read anything on this yet on news reports. 

     


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    From this week's Economist:

     

    In America NOX standards are more demanding than they are in Europe. Mazda and Honda, both accomplished producers of diesel engines, have had trouble complying with them. It now appears that VW, which has put a lot of effort into persuading Americans that diesels can be clean and green, would also have failed to comply if it had not cheated.

    The company has been obsessed with surpassing Toyota and becoming the world's biggest car company, despite making little money from its most high-volume products (cars carrying the VW badge make up 60% of sales but the profit margin on them is just 2%). 

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:
    • These engines didn't use a urea injection system, they were claimed to not require it, saving VW ~$430/car and customers ongoing maintenance costs.
    • With the "defeat device" enabled -- i.e., with emission controls full on -- they test legal without requiring urea injection.
    • With the "defeat device" disabled -- i.e., with emission controls full off -- they run with emissions at up to 40 times the legal level.
    • They only get the advertised performance and fuel economy with the emission controls full off.

    Do you mean the other way around, Apias?


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:

    That will take a very long time then!

    In the end it might not be technically feasible to reduce emissions to the required levels AND to maintain the other engine characteristics to the originally specified values. In this eventuality the problems will be huge between VW and its customers.

    At the moment we don't even know what influence the trick software had on EU emissions tests, do we?  Smiley

    I cannot imagine how NOx can be 40 times more whilst CO2 stays the same. Logically EU emissions have been falsified too.

    Smiley
    From the published report on the American tests we know that, counter-intuitively, fuel consumption and therefore CO2 output was reduced when the NOx emission values increased due to the cheat software. Worse values for one do not go hand-in-hand with worse values for the other. 

    My question above really was meant as a question: Do we know anything yet as to what effect the possible use of the defeat device was meant to have in European car? Was it the same as for EPA tests, or did differing test requirements lead to different objectives? I haven't read anything on this yet on news reports. 

     

    If the NOx and the CO2 values go in opposite directions, then the effect of reducing NOx during rolling road  tests through the defeat device was that CO2 values appeared higher than in real usage of the car.

    Unless in the EU the defeat device was programmed to work in the opposite direction i.e. reducing the CO2 (which matters for EU taxation and environmental standards) whilst increasing NOx that EU doesn't take into much consideration.

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    It has also been reported that the current EU6 engines are immune from the problem which ended with the EU5 specification.

    So a possible remedy would be to convert all older engines to EU6. I presume this will also be very complex and expensive perhaps even more costly than replacing  the old engine with a new one.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:
    apias:
    • These engines didn't use a urea injection system, they were claimed to not require it, saving VW ~$430/car and customers ongoing maintenance costs.
    • With the "defeat device" enabled -- i.e., with emission controls full on -- they test legal without requiring urea injection.
    • With the "defeat device" disabled -- i.e., with emission controls full off -- they run with emissions at up to 40 times the legal level.
    • They only get the advertised performance and fuel economy with the emission controls full off.

    Do you mean the other way around, Apias?

    Well, no, it's to "defeat" the test, so, enabled, where it actually limits emissions.

    Interesting to read above, though, that the urea injection system is installed in European spec cars.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    What will they do with all those unwanted Jettas etc?  Here's an idea.... Uber could buy them. 

    jettaTaxi.jpg


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:
    SoCal Alan:
    apias:
    • These engines didn't use a urea injection system, they were claimed to not require it, saving VW ~$430/car and customers ongoing maintenance costs.
    • With the "defeat device" enabled -- i.e., with emission controls full on -- they test legal without requiring urea injection.
    • With the "defeat device" disabled -- i.e., with emission controls full off -- they run with emissions at up to 40 times the legal level.
    • They only get the advertised performance and fuel economy with the emission controls full off.

    Do you mean the other way around, Apias?

    Well, no, it's to "defeat" the test, so, enabled, where it actually limits emissions.

    Interesting to read above, though, that the urea injection system is installed in European spec cars.

    But, if you're enabling the device, the whole point is to turn off emissions, when the test cycle is detected.

    defeat device enabled => emissions controls off
    defeat device disabled => emissions controls on


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    No, the point is to "defeat" the test, that's why it's called a "defeat device". So when it is "defeating" the test, the "device" is "on". In the "on" state, it controls emissions so that the car passes the test. In the "off" state, it is not controlling emissions for testing -- i.e., emission controls are off.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I need my coffee this morning...


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:

    That will take a very long time then!

    In the end it might not be technically feasible to reduce emissions to the required levels AND to maintain the other engine characteristics to the originally specified values. In this eventuality the problems will be huge between VW and its customers.

    At the moment we don't even know what influence the trick software had on EU emissions tests, do we?  Smiley

    I cannot imagine how NOx can be 40 times more whilst CO2 stays the same. Logically EU emissions have been falsified too.

    Smiley
    From the published report on the American tests we know that, counter-intuitively, fuel consumption and therefore CO2 output was reduced when the NOx emission values increased due to the cheat software. Worse values for one do not go hand-in-hand with worse values for the other. 

    My question above really was meant as a question: Do we know anything yet as to what effect the possible use of the defeat device was meant to have in European car? Was it the same as for EPA tests, or did differing test requirements lead to different objectives? I haven't read anything on this yet on news reports. 

     

    If the NOx and the CO2 values go in opposite directions, then the effect of reducing NOx during rolling road  tests through the defeat device was that CO2 values appeared higher than in real usage of the car.

    Unless in the EU the defeat device was programmed to work in the opposite direction i.e. reducing the CO2 (which matters for EU taxation and environmental standards) whilst increasing NOx that EU doesn't take into much consideration.

    I didn't say that they necessarily go in opposite directions, just that they do not vary in proportion to each other. They may well be variable totally independently of each other to a degree.
    NOx values can be reduced by injecting urea into the exhaust tract or by recirculating exhaust gases into the inlet tract. I don't know the degree or direction of the influence of these measures on CO2 emissions, but have not yet seen anything to suggest that either of them necessarily has directly proportional detrimental effects on CO2 values.   Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:

    I need my coffee this morning...

     

    Or just go back to sleep


    --

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:
    SoCal Alan:
    apias:
    • These engines didn't use a urea injection system, they were claimed to not require it, saving VW ~$430/car and customers ongoing maintenance costs.
    • With the "defeat device" enabled -- i.e., with emission controls full on -- they test legal without requiring urea injection.
    • With the "defeat device" disabled -- i.e., with emission controls full off -- they run with emissions at up to 40 times the legal level.
    • They only get the advertised performance and fuel economy with the emission controls full off.

    Do you mean the other way around, Apias?

    Well, no, it's to "defeat" the test, so, enabled, where it actually limits emissions.

    Interesting to read above, though, that the urea injection system is installed in European spec cars.

    Again, do we know that CO2 emissions and fuel consumption values claimed for the cars concerned by VW are only achieved with the "emission controls full off"?

    The test lab which raised this issue stated that NOx values were increased drastically by switching data maps, but that power output and fuel consumption were both improved with the cheat software. From what I've read, it still remains ambiguous whether power and consumption were improved against the manufacturer's claimed values or just against worse-than-claimed values achievable with full NOx controls in operation. 

    In my view, the answer to this question could be significant in terms of both choosing a technical solution for the cars affected and in terms of any judgements for damages imposed on VW in favour of car owners. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:

    I need my coffee this morning...

    I find that, for me, some days there is just not enough coffee in the world.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
     

    Again, do we know that CO2 emissions and fuel consumption values claimed for the cars concerned by VW are only achieved with the "emission controls full off"?

    The test lab which raised this issue stated that NOx values were increased drastically by switching data maps, but that power output and fuel consumption were both improved with the cheat software. From what I've read, it still remains ambiguous whether power and consumption were improved against the manufacturer's claimed values or just against worse-than-claimed values achievable with full NOx controls in operation. 

    In my view, the answer to this question could be significant in terms of both choosing a technical solution for the cars affected and in terms of any judgements for damages imposed on VW in favour of car owners. 

    My understanding is that the engines only achieve the advertised fuel economy and horsepower when the "defeat device" is off -- i.e., when emission controls are not active. So, it's not possible to achieve legal NOx levels and advertised fuel economy and performance levels at the same time. It's either/or, or possibly by compromising all three.


     
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