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    2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Monza next


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Hamilton's ability to keep Vettel behind him while Vettel was on tires that were two compounds softer doesn't seem to bode well for Ferrari at Monza.  Maybe it was just an off weekend for them, but Ferrari should be a bit concerned about their home grand prix.


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Mercedes faster no doubt....ferrari will have no chance at Monza sincerità is a to fast track with no slow part.

    so ham will pass vettel in the championship.


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    993 c2


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    'Monza Magic': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvOuuqkW9rc


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    what a qualifying session!
    Rain mixes things up a lot, well done Stroll and Ocon.

    and WTF happened to both Ferraris...!?!?


    --

    997.1 C4 Silver (current), 996.1C4 (sold), 997.1C2S (sold) 986.1S (sold)


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    May be both Ferraris have a "dry" set up for the race and Mercedes not...

    https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/Parc_Ferme.html

    We will see

    Blueflame

     


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    OK - that's not the reason...;-)

    • The only exception to this is when there is a "change in climatic conditions", for example a dry qualifying session followed by a wet race, or vice versa. In this case the FIA will give the teams permission to make further appropriate changes to their cars.

    Blueflame


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    An interesting qualifying session for sure. Forecast is sunny for tomorrow.

    Congrats to Hamilton for becoming the most successful pole-taker in F1 history! kiss


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    DaveGordon:

    Congrats to Hamilton for becoming the most successful pole-taker in F1 history! kiss

    Smiley


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Mercs were so far superior there was not even a race. Wondering how the gap was so little in Spa..

    Amazing race by Ricciardo...


    --

    997.1 C4 Silver (current), 996.1C4 (sold), 997.1C2S (sold) 986.1S (sold)


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    What a surprise from Stroll! Honestly, I though the dude was just a pancake... apparently he cán drive!
    Ocon deserved as well, and a great race from Ricciardo. Was disappointed by Max' impatience killing his race. His strength seems to be his weakness as well; he has an unsatiable drive to win and to pass, but sometimes that comes back to bite him in the behind...


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    IMO Hamilton is the star driver of his era. He can conjure up incredible things on the track and he is a most self-confident person. Vettel, with all due respect to a multiple champion,  is a few clicks below as a driver and as a personality.

    Moreover, Mercedes is a global automotive engineering colossus far ahead of FIAT-Ferrari.

    It also helps that Mercedes have Niki Lauda, a true legend in many areas, inside their garage.

    The drivers' title is for Mercedes to lose. For the manufacturers' there is no contest IMO.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    reginos:

    IMO Hamilton is the star driver of his era. He can conjure up incredible things on the track and he is a most self-confident person.

    Yet last year, having a car well above any other team's he had only one competitor and still lost...to Rosberg. This year he doesn't even have a single competitor with a chance. Under such circumstances, its easy to look great, but put Ricciardo, Alonso, and even throw in Max and Vettel in for good measure all with the same car as Hamilton and see what happens.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    I  100 % agree with Carlos !

     


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:

    IMO Hamilton is the star driver of his era. He can conjure up incredible things on the track and he is a most self-confident person.

    Yet last year, having a car well above any other team's he had only one competitor and still lost...to Rosberg. This year he doesn't even have a single competitor with a chance. Under such circumstances, its easy to look great, but put Ricciardo, Alonso, and even throw in Max and Vettel in for good measure all with the same car as Hamilton and see what happens.

    It is very seldom that the F1 drivers' title is won with an inferior car or even a second best car.

    The only  drivers I can remember who  won the championship in inferior cars were Nelson Piquet in 1983 with the Brabham-BMW when Renault was the best car and Michael Schumacher in the Benetton years when Williams had the best car.

    We cannot do an "as if" analysis and guess what Alonso and the rest could have done in different car. This is a very hypothetical, abstract and speculative exercise which is open to arbitrary conclusions.

    Who gets the best car? The one who is perceived as the best of his generation and/or the one who is astute enough to manage his career well.

    Hamilton was nurtured from the age of 11 by Ron Dennis, the doyen of modern F1 and a kind of British Enzo Ferrari, who saw the exceptional skills and qualities and risked on a black boy in a white sport. He was also hand picked for Mercedes by Lauda which says a lot about LH's esteem.

    Last season, Hamilton lost to Rosberg after a series of breakdowns and technical issues by 5 points.

    OK, congratulations to Rosberg but  it was with a stroke of good luck that nice guy Nico became the 2016 champion. So much so that realizing his limitations he retired immediately and disappeared in order to preserve his reputation from a Hamilton comeback in 2017.

    Hamilton may be cockier and more arrogant that what people would have liked but such attributes are secondary to the masterclass driving he very often demonstrates.

     

     

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Hard to argue about any of that. Lewis is clearly a superior driver. He makes very few mistakes and is very quick. He has had breakdowns out of his control but I don't recall him stuffing a car into a wall or misjudging his own abilities. He is a champion. 


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Leawood911:

    Hard to argue about any of that. Lewis is clearly a superior driver. He makes very few mistakes and is very quick. He has had breakdowns out of his control but I don't recall him stuffing a car into a wall or misjudging his own abilities. He is a champion. 

    Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    put Ham in Mclaren...the result will not change much. He is driving a car where after 10 laps the team radio says to him to reduce the power of the car because they have no competition with the others, in order to preserve the engine !!!!

    In those conditions it is not a real picture of the pilot, when he is back and have to fight he also make mistakes because he is on the limit, when you can drive far under the limiti and be the fastest anyway........you have to say 100000 thanks to Mercedes in order to get you a car like that!!!!

     


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    993 c2

     


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    reginos:
     

    We cannot do an "as if" analysis and guess what Alonso and the rest could have done in different car. This is a very hypothetical, abstract and speculative exercise which is open to arbitrary conclusions.

    Then to say that Ham is the star of its era without knowing what the other top drivers could have done in the same car is just as an arbitrary a conclusion, just as hypothetical, abstract and speculative. You can't have it both ways.

    That said, even though Schummacher for example had the best car during years as well, there is a difference in how he dominated compared to Ham or Vettel, or Rosberg or Button... they were not on the same level.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    BTW, seems McLaren signed with Renualt for engine supplier for next year, my guess its the only way to keep Alonso. 


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
     

    We cannot do an "as if" analysis and guess what Alonso and the rest could have done in different car. This is a very hypothetical, abstract and speculative exercise which is open to arbitrary conclusions.

    Then to say that Ham is the star of its era without knowing what the other top drivers could have done in the same car is just as an arbitrary a conclusion, just as hypothetical, abstract and speculative. You can't have it both ways.

    What kind of sophism is this? Smiley

    What we have been experiencing in GP racing is some kind of virtual reality and I don't know it?

    We make conclusions by what has actually happened and what is happening in front of us. Real life has elevated  Hamilton and not some sort of hypothetical wishful thinking.

    That said, even though Schummacher for example had the best car during years as well, there is a difference in how he dominated compared to Ham or Vettel, or Rosberg or Button... they were not on the same level.

    Schumacher has a glorious racing record but this has been blurred by the known controversies like  collisions at crucial races (HIll and Villeneuve), penalty for dangerous driving, blocking in Monaco qualifying and cynical  team orders. His reputation as a sports personality is not as impeccable as his statistics.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Carlos from Spain:

    BTW, seems McLaren signed with Renualt for engine supplier for next year, my guess its the only way to keep Alonso. 

    With the luck of Alonso, Honda will have a best engine next year and Renault will be rubbish Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    reginos:
    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
     

    We cannot do an "as if" analysis and guess what Alonso and the rest could have done in different car. This is a very hypothetical, abstract and speculative exercise which is open to arbitrary conclusions.

    Then to say that Ham is the star of its era without knowing what the other top drivers could have done in the same car is just as an arbitrary a conclusion, just as hypothetical, abstract and speculative. You can't have it both ways.

    What kind of sophism is this? Smiley

    What we have been experiencing in GP racing is some kind of virtual reality and I don't know it?

    We make conclusions by what has actually happened and what is happening in front of us. Real life has elevated  Hamilton and not some sort of hypothetical wishful thinking.

    Logic 101. If you claim that you cannot say that other drivers are better than Ham in his car because they haven't raced in his car and its just speculation, then you cannot claim that Ham is better because... "they haven't raced in his car and its just speculation". 

    What we have seen is that one driver is winning in a car far ahead of the rest of the grid, period. Saying Ham is the star of his ear because of that is wishful thinking, not to mention that in that case Vettel would be the star of this era given his titles with the RBR and we all know he is far from it.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    reginos:
    Carlos from Spain:

    BTW, seems McLaren signed with Renualt for engine supplier for next year, my guess its the only way to keep Alonso. 

    With the luck of Alonso, Honda will have a best engine next year and Renault will be rubbish Smiley

    That outcome is pretty much a safe bet Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
     

    We cannot do an "as if" analysis and guess what Alonso and the rest could have done in different car. This is a very hypothetical, abstract and speculative exercise which is open to arbitrary conclusions.

    Then to say that Ham is the star of its era without knowing what the other top drivers could have done in the same car is just as an arbitrary a conclusion, just as hypothetical, abstract and speculative. You can't have it both ways.

    What kind of sophism is this? Smiley

    What we have been experiencing in GP racing is some kind of virtual reality and I don't know it?

    We make conclusions by what has actually happened and what is happening in front of us. Real life has elevated  Hamilton and not some sort of hypothetical wishful thinking.

    Logic 101. If you claim that you cannot say that other drivers are better than Ham in his car because they haven't raced in his car and its just speculation, then you cannot claim that Ham is better because... "they haven't raced in his car and its just speculation". 

    What we have seen is that one driver is winning in a car far ahead of the rest of the grid, period. Saying Ham is the star of his ear because of that is wishful thinking, not to mention that in that case Vettel would be the star of this era given his titles with the RBR and we all know he is far from it.

     

    This argument is not valid, is just a sophism. It uses something which is remotely plausible to deceive others into a fallacious logic.

    Anyway:

    Hamilton was so good as to embarrass all his team mates including the best driver of last decade Alonso, as a rookie at McLaren.

    Rosberg recognized Hamilton's superiority, that after his lucky break last year he went running away and abandoned the sport.

    And I am not so sure that Ferrari's car is so much inferior as the relative superiority of Hamilton vs Vettel makes this to appear.

    And why would the best team with the best car choose Hamilton? With the fallacious reasoning they could have employed someone like Palmer for example and save hugely on their payroll. Pity they haven't thought about it before Smiley

     

     

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    reginos:
     

    Hamilton was so good as to embarrass all his team mates including the best driver of last decade Alonso, as a rookie at McLaren.

    I guess you missed last season were he lost to... Rosberg Smiley 

    As to his time with Alonso, they had two alfas and Ron Denis played favorite with his boy Ham to the point of hampering Alonso's chances in the McLaren because he was Ham's only rival (ironically they signed Alonso with the promise that he was going to be Nº1 driver), and what they achieved in the end is Ham with just one point over Alonso in spite of this, and loosing a championship that they had in the pocket.... karma.

    Kimi, Alonso, Vettel, Ham, Ricciardo... any could win on the Merc, even Rosberg! Smiley..Mercedes only needs one of them and they have Ham, so that doesn't say much. Ironically McLaren without chances to win pays Alonso more than Merc pays Ham to win, now that says a lot Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
     

    Hamilton was so good as to embarrass all his team mates including the best driver of last decade Alonso, as a rookie at McLaren.

    I guess you missed last season were he lost to... Rosberg Smiley 

    Rosberg crew won the title. They offered a more reliable car. Rosberg being a pragmatic person realized that his championship was an abnormality and hence he didn't dare stay to defend.

    As to his time with Alonso, they had two alfas and Ron Denis played favorite with his boy Ham to the point of hampering Alonso's chances in the McLaren because he was Ham's only rival (ironically they signed Alonso with the promise that he was going to be Nº1 driver), and what they achieved in the end is Ham with just one point over Alonso in spite of this, and loosing a championship that they had in the pocket.... karma.

    That was a badly managed situation for sure. I respect Ron Dennis but he didn't handle it well.

    However, in spite of Dennis' preference Hamilton as a newcomer showed his worth on the track and went on to win 3 titles. Alonso instead withdrew to his whinging self.

    Kimi, Alonso, Vettel, Ham, Ricciardo... any could win on the Merc, even Rosberg! Smiley..Mercedes only needs one of them and they have Ham, so that doesn't say much. Ironically McLaren without chances to win pays Alonso more than Merc pays Ham to win, now that says a lot Smiley

    You list some of the good drivers in the F1 field. Mercedes could have chosen any of those. But Lauda's keen eye and winner's instinct chose the best of the contemporaries.

    Why McLaren pays Alonso big wages? Because they are also a mess in everything else now.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
     

    Hamilton was so good as to embarrass all his team mates including the best driver of last decade Alonso, as a rookie at McLaren.

    I guess you missed last season were he lost to... Rosberg Smiley 

    As to his time with Alonso, they had two alfas and Ron Denis played favorite with his boy Ham to the point of hampering Alonso's chances in the McLaren because he was Ham's only rival (ironically they signed Alonso with the promise that he was going to be Nº1 driver), and what they achieved in the end is Ham with just one point over Alonso in spite of this, and loosing a championship that they had in the pocket.... karma.

    Kimi, Alonso, Vettel, Ham, Ricciardo... any could win on the Merc, even Rosberg! Smiley..Mercedes only needs one of them and they have Ham, so that doesn't say much. Ironically McLaren without chances to win pays Alonso more than Merc pays Ham to win, now that says a lot Smiley

    Carlos, as an Alonso supporter, what's your take on this in the Hamilton - Alonso saga?

    http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10959867/fernando-alonso-lewis-hamilton-and-the-hungarian-gp-pit-stop-that-ended-a-mclare...


    --

    1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E / 2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2014 BMW-Alpina B3 biturbo Touring Allrad


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    reginos:
    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
     

    Hamilton was so good as to embarrass all his team mates including the best driver of last decade Alonso, as a rookie at McLaren.

    I guess you missed last season were he lost to... Rosberg Smiley 

    Rosberg crew won the title.

    Oh, so then it was Rosberg's "crew" but now its all Hamilton? Smiley

    You list some of the good drivers in the F1 field. Mercedes could have chosen any of those. But Lauda's keen eye and winner's instinct chose the best of the contemporaries.

    Why McLaren pays Alonso big wages? Because they are also a mess in everything else now.

    Ferrari were also paying him more than any driver on the grid when they had him those years too. Guess all these teams know nothing... they should of hired you as contract negotiator Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2017 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
     

    Hamilton was so good as to embarrass all his team mates including the best driver of last decade Alonso, as a rookie at McLaren.

    I guess you missed last season were he lost to... Rosberg Smiley 

    Rosberg crew won the title.

    Oh, so then it was Rosberg's "crew" but now its all Hamilton? Smiley

    It is common knowledge that Rosberg's championship was a lucky one. These things happen in sport from time to time. Similar to his father's title in 1982. It seems they are a lucky family Smiley

    You list some of the good drivers in the F1 field. Mercedes could have chosen any of those. But Lauda's keen eye and winner's instinct chose the best of the contemporaries.

    Why McLaren pays Alonso big wages? Because they are also a mess in everything else now.

    Ferrari were also paying him more than any driver on the grid when they had him those years too. Guess all these teams know nothing... they should of hired you as contract negotiator Smiley

    Ferrari have been throwing money down the drain through their F1 effort after Schumacher. Alonso's payslip is just another demonstration of that.

    I don't know how Alonso is perceived in Spain but notwithstanding the fact that he is one the top drivers, he doesn't come across as a personality that would inspire the team around him and make them excel. Apparently, Ferrari thought, erroneously, that they found the new Schumacher in Alonso, they overestimated him and consequently overpaid him. Similarly, McLaren wasted a lot of money on their driver, in the absence of shrewd Ron Dennis.

    .


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


     
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