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    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:


    How come 0 to 60 mph is 3.4 secs and 0 to 62 mph is 3.7 secs???

    I know this is nitpicking but that's what everyone's been doing about the Turbo's numbers lately so I'm asking, why a third of a second to gain 0.2 mph?

    Usually, it's 0.2 secs which I found rather long already.

    I mean, shouln't 0 to 60 and 0 to 62 mph times be almost identical? At least to the decimal of second?



    i was wondering about this one as well!

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Maybe simplified, but isn't this because of the fact that max. torque is reached already at 2000 rpm and maintained up to 5000 rpm, so that it isn't that important anymore when exactly you shift ?

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:

    So if you're buying the new 997 Turbo or not, this is your personal decision. But do you know many cars on the street which can hit 60 mph/100 kph in 3.4/3.7 seconds EACH and EVERY time from standstill? I don't. Yes, I'm still not happy with what Porsche brought up. But it could have been worse




    all this acceleration-time-horray is applying lipstick to a pig IMO.

    the TURBO is the 911 ICON. a vanguard in technology.

    why is the PDK not ready?

    you can get it for nearly any VW golf -- and VW even managed that it can cope with the torque-monster bugatti.

    a 5gear autobox and raving about acceleration times... this might be ok for a SL55 AMG... but we are talking about the brand new 911 turbo here.

    what's the reason that PDK isn't ready? just costs and marketing! controlling is ruling zuffenhausen compeletely. they won't have a problem selling the brand new turbo in the beginning, PDK or not... and in 1 or 2 years they will present the PDK, a lot of turbo drivers will switch... and give the tiptronics a hard time on the used car market...

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:


    How come 0 to 60 mph is 3.4 secs and 0 to 62 mph is 3.7 secs???

    I know this is nitpicking but that's what everyone's been doing about the Turbo's numbers lately so I'm asking, why a third of a second to gain 0.2 mph?

    Usually, it's 0.2 secs which I found rather long already.

    I mean, shouln't 0 to 60 and 0 to 62 mph times be almost identical? At least to the decimal of second?



    i was wondering about this one as well!



    Yes and no one has replied bc I genuinely believe there is something wrong here from a mathematical point of view.

    Already for all other cars there a time difference of 0.2 secs.
    997S: 0 to 60 mph in 4.6 secs and 0 to 62 mph (100 kmh) in 4.8 secs!

    Now with the Turbo:
    0 to 60 mph in 3.4 secs and 0 to 62 in 3.7 secs?

    Now seriously, what makes that car so slow to gain 0.3 mph???

    Ahhhhh, the joys of marketing.

    BTW, my comment applies to the 0.2 mph discrepency that all other car manufacturer publish too, the Turbo has just pushed this nonsense a little bit further.

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    what's the reason that PDK isn't ready? just costs and marketing! controlling is ruling zuffenhausen compeletely. they won't have a problem selling the brand new turbo in the beginning, PDK or not... and in 1 or 2 years they will present the PDK, a lot of turbo drivers will switch... and give the tiptronics a hard time on the used car market...



    Absolutely true. There is a similar story with Ferrari I'm not gonna go into. But Porsche is in the business of making profits not pleasing costumers.
    PDK's probably ready since a long time but since it would probably hurt tiptro sales, why not milk the cow a little further and release the PDK later?

    I think it's very smart.

    And no, there's nothing wrong buying a Tiptro and Porsche doesn't betray you. The Turbo is still one of, if not, the best sports car in the world.

    It's just a matter of understanding Porsche's strategy and embracing it that's all.

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    what's the reason that PDK isn't ready? just costs and marketing! controlling is ruling zuffenhausen compeletely. they won't have a problem selling the brand new turbo in the beginning, PDK or not... and in 1 or 2 years they will present the PDK, a lot of turbo drivers will switch... and give the tiptronics a hard time on the used car market...



    Absolutely true. There is a similar story with Ferrari I'm not gonna go into. But Porsche is in the business of making profits not pleasing costumers.
    PDK's probably ready since a long time but since it would probably hurt tiptro sales, why not milk the cow a little further and release the PDK later?

    I think it's very smart.

    And no, there's nothing wrong buying a Tiptro and Porsche doesn't betray you. The Turbo is still one of, if not, the best sports car in the world.

    It's just a matter of understanding Porsche's strategy and embracing it that's all.



    Hey fanch,

    they are not THAT smart..

    the reason being that they dont have PDK yet is a supply constraint from Borg Warner. Those guys had to embrace and focus on the VW deal as that was their first big customer; therefore all their firepower goes there and not to a small volume producer like Porsche, who might be prestigious, but so what, they got the prestige from the Bugatti DSG already (which they were required to do from Piech in order to get the VW deal). So Porsche will only get the DSG in 07 (and maybe even chooses another supplier though i dont think so), and for Borg Warner it will be much less an exciting deal than getting eg. Ford on their order books...
    so one of the advantages of the Porsche-VW deal would probably be that these kind of mishaps wouldnt happen again.
    but to your point, they certainly could have been first in the line if they had commited first, which didnt happen as they do not invest as much as we think it would be nice they would - it's all about margins...

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    what's the reason that PDK isn't ready? just costs and marketing! controlling is ruling zuffenhausen compeletely. they won't have a problem selling the brand new turbo in the beginning, PDK or not... and in 1 or 2 years they will present the PDK, a lot of turbo drivers will switch... and give the tiptronics a hard time on the used car market...



    Absolutely true. There is a similar story with Ferrari I'm not gonna go into. But Porsche is in the business of making profits not pleasing costumers.
    PDK's probably ready since a long time but since it would probably hurt tiptro sales, why not milk the cow a little further and release the PDK later?

    I think it's very smart.

    And no, there's nothing wrong buying a Tiptro and Porsche doesn't betray you. The Turbo is still one of, if not, the best sports car in the world.

    It's just a matter of understanding Porsche's strategy and embracing it that's all.



    Hey fanch,

    they are not THAT smart..

    the reason being that they dont have PDK yet is a supply constraint from Borg Warner. Those guys had to embrace and focus on the VW deal as that was their first big customer; therefore all their firepower goes there and not to a small volume producer like Porsche, who might be prestigious, but so what, they got the prestige from the Bugatti DSG already (which they were required to do from Piech in order to get the VW deal). So Porsche will only get the DSG in 07 (and maybe even chooses another supplier though i dont think so), and for Borg Warner it will be much less an exciting deal than getting eg. Ford on their order books...
    so one of the advantages of the Porsche-VW deal would probably be that these kind of mishaps wouldnt happen again.
    but to your point, they certainly could have been first in the line if they had commited first, which didnt happen as they do not invest as much as we think it would be nice they would - it's all about margins...



    Thanks for that clarification.
    So it's a decision driven by logistics and marketing, not engineering, which in itself is reassuring from a technical point of view.

    The only drawback I've heard so far about the Porsche DSG is that it is very heavy. We'll find out in a year or two.

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Still a manual for me, thank you, if it isn't for the driving experience, than you have to do it for the sound, a tiptronic Porsche sounds so bad IMO, it seems like a constant whine trough the gears whereas a manual you really hear it pulling gear after gear...

    Just my 2 cents

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    I'll take the new tip

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:


    How come 0 to 60 mph is 3.4 secs and 0 to 62 mph is 3.7 secs???

    I know this is nitpicking but that's what everyone's been doing about the Turbo's numbers lately so I'm asking, why a third of a second to gain 0.2 mph?

    Usually, it's 0.2 secs which I found rather long already.

    I mean, shouln't 0 to 60 and 0 to 62 mph times be almost identical? At least to the decimal of second?



    i was wondering about this one as well!



    Yes and no one has replied bc I genuinely believe there is something wrong here from a mathematical point of view.

    Already for all other cars there a time difference of 0.2 secs.
    997S: 0 to 60 mph in 4.6 secs and 0 to 62 mph (100 kmh) in 4.8 secs!

    Now with the Turbo:
    0 to 60 mph in 3.4 secs and 0 to 62 in 3.7 secs?

    Now seriously, what makes that car so slow to gain 0.3 mph???

    Ahhhhh, the joys of marketing.

    BTW, my comment applies to the 0.2 mph discrepency that all other car manufacturer publish too, the Turbo has just pushed this nonsense a little bit further.



    The actual difference is probably closer to 0.2 sec. which is about right. (Round-off errors in the quoted times could account for it i.e. it could be something like 3.44s and 3.66s hypothetically.)

    The manual is quoted at 3.7/3.9 s for 0-60 mph/0-62 mph.

    Look at the 0.2 s difference this way: If the car continued to accelerate at the rate of 2 mph/0.2 s, then the tip car would theoretically hit 160 km/h in just 7 sec. ({[160-100]*0.62/2}*0.2) In reality, we know the acceleration rate gradually drops off as speed increases, so around 8 s makes sense (to 160 km/h).

    Also very key is what the gear ratios are and where the car is in the power band at 60/62 mph.

    For the Subaru WRX (one of which I own) the north american model debuted in 2002 with altered gear ratios compared to the rest of world cars. Specifically, 2nd gear was made very long so that the car could hit 60 mph with one less gear change. In this way, Subaru was able to claim an under six second time, great for advertising, but a pity for the car because the ROW ratios were much nicer for sports driving.

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Good explanation, thanks a lot.

    The story about the Subaru is a great shame.
    Again, marketing taking over engineering.

    Today, the two main figures that sell sports cars are most definitely the most irrelevant ones:

    - Max power
    - 0 to 60 times


    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    There is a interesting feature in new Sport Chrono Turbo option... In sport mode electronically controlled AWD is biased more towards the rear! If I am not wrong that means that manual car will have more traction in sport mode with optional rear axle differential lock then TIP(rear differential lock in not available for TIP)...?
    So, in theory Manual could be faster around track and in wet conditions...

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    What % of P owners actually track their car?

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    BD 997 said:
    question? what % of P owners actually track their car?
    Tip is the better deal... IMO



    I don't agree. If I wanted straightline, I'd buy an SL65.
    I hate the feeling of an automatic in the curves and it feels too disconnected from the car. Now I have no problem with the Tip being as fast as the manual, but the standard manual, if the factory numbers are correct, is barely faster than the old X50. So we either hope that the car is faster with the manual in reality (this is a PORSCHE, not a MERCEDES), or wait for the PDK.

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    RC said:
    And finally, regarding track racing: rumors indicate that test drivers were always faster with the Tiptronic during track testing, with one exception (I don't know if by this exception our source meant the driver or a specific track).

    So get over it, I have to get over it too: Tip is faster. Period.


    Thanks for the confidence inspiring rumor, I know I will be faster using TIP , just a regular guy who visit the track every once in a while.

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    RC said:
    And finally, regarding track racing: rumors indicate that test drivers were always faster with the Tiptronic during track testing, with one exception (I don't know if by this exception our source meant the driver or a specific track).



    RC, do you know did the manual tracked with LSD or not?

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:

    So if you're buying the new 997 Turbo or not, this is your personal decision. But do you know many cars on the street which can hit 60 mph/100 kph in 3.4/3.7 seconds EACH and EVERY time from standstill? I don't. Yes, I'm still not happy with what Porsche brought up. But it could have been worse




    all this acceleration-time-horray is applying lipstick to a pig IMO.

    the TURBO is the 911 ICON. a vanguard in technology.

    why is the PDK not ready?

    you can get it for nearly any VW golf -- and VW even managed that it can cope with the torque-monster bugatti.

    a 5gear autobox and raving about acceleration times... this might be ok for a SL55 AMG... but we are talking about the brand new 911 turbo here.

    what's the reason that PDK isn't ready? just costs and marketing! controlling is ruling zuffenhausen compeletely. they won't have a problem selling the brand new turbo in the beginning, PDK or not... and in 1 or 2 years they will present the PDK, a lot of turbo drivers will switch... and give the tiptronics a hard time on the used car market...



    Maybe it already is available, but, Porsche just wants to clear out their inventory Tips.

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:Maybe it already is available, but, Porsche just wants to clear out their inventory Tips.


    Now there is an ingenious marketing ploy if I ever heard one!!!!

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I am sorry isn't this discussion bordering on the ridiculous? Who in the hell will be driving those speeds and where? The Autobahn is high speed but on city streets?



    You kidding me? there is more to San Diego out there. I just got back from a commute at the end of the day and I was cruising at 110mph, and I mean "cruising", listening to the stereo, etc, etc...

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I am sorry isn't this discussion bordering on the ridiculous? Who in the hell will be driving those speeds and where? The Autobahn is high speed but on city streets?



    You kidding me? there is more to San Diego out there. I just got back from a commute at the end of the day and I was cruising at 110mph, and I mean "cruising", listening to the stereo, etc, etc...



    Exactly!
    There isn't a day when I don't drive over 120 mph. Nick, there exists a place called Europe

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Can't believe people would sacrifice the involvement of a manual for Tip just because of 0.2sec difference. Having driven 911 in both manual and Tip, the Tip totally sucks.

    Picture the scenario, customers might purchase a Tip and then get bored, car gets punted back onto the market believing Porsche will offer them a good deal to buy back but will invariably get shafted on trade in against a manual 997 TT or TTS.

    Then months down the line, Porsche will release details of a PDK option and a few extra goodies thrown in to the slightly revised TT, then the would be customer chops it in again for another one. Profits from three hits job done. Porsche makes more money while the customer nurses from a sore ass

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Re-sales are not added to Porsches profit margins.

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:

    what's the reason that PDK isn't ready? just costs and marketing! controlling is ruling zuffenhausen compeletely. they won't have a problem selling the brand new turbo in the beginning, PDK or not... and in 1 or 2 years they will present the PDK, a lot of turbo drivers will switch... and give the tiptronics a hard time on the used car market...



    Sönke, the PDK for the 997 Turbo is not ready, trust me. And the "hard" time will come for manual owners because the PDK won't offer dramatically better performance times over Tiptronic, just highly improved shifting times for the track. And...Tiptronic is already faster than manual.

    Re: Trouble in Paradise, Urban Legends and more...get real

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:

    what's the reason that PDK isn't ready? just costs and marketing! controlling is ruling zuffenhausen compeletely. they won't have a problem selling the brand new turbo in the beginning, PDK or not... and in 1 or 2 years they will present the PDK, a lot of turbo drivers will switch... and give the tiptronics a hard time on the used car market...



    Sönke, the PDK for the 997 Turbo is not ready, trust me. And the "hard" time will come for manual owners because the PDK won't offer dramatically better performance times over Tiptronic, just highly improved shifting times for the track. And...Tiptronic is already faster than manual.



    So I guess PDK and Powerkit are the ticket ...
    RC, any clue on how much torque the PDK will be able to handle (for tuning purposes)?

     
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