Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
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Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
4trac:
So a consolation win for the McLaren... in a drag race.
All is not lost for all those early buyers after all.
Quite a few vociferous American 12C depositors are touting that drag race win as some sort of total vindication on a McLaren forum site. It seems they think the fact it's gone viral will easily defeat the negative road test reviews as they claim most US based buyers don't know about 5th Gear or read many of the UK auto magazines.
And here was I thinking that McLaren were targetting serious car enthusiasts 
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
ISUK:
4trac:
So a consolation win for the McLaren... in a drag race.
Quite a few vociferous American 12C depositors are touting that drag race win as some sort of total vindication on a McLaren forum site. It seems they think the fact it's gone viral will easily defeat the negative road test reviews as they claim most US based buyers don't know about 5th Gear or read many of the UK auto magazines.
And here was I thinking that McLaren were targetting serious car enthusiasts
Completely agree, making a car faster in a straight line is no huge accomplishment, especially when turbocharging is employed. The fact that the 458 still beats the 12c around a track, despite having less power, more weight, and no air brake, speaks volumes about the 12c's chasis. I tried to look past the lack of mechanical LSD on the 12c when I first learned of it, looks like I was wrong to expect brake steer to be an adequate substitute. Very dissapointed in this car, perhaps they will make a sport version with mechanical LSD and anti-roll bars.
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
ISUK:
4trac:
So a consolation win for the McLaren... in a drag race.
Quite a few vociferous American 12C depositors are touting that drag race win as some sort of total vindication on a McLaren forum site. It seems they think the fact it's gone viral will easily defeat the negative road test reviews as they claim most US based buyers don't know about 5th Gear or read many of the UK auto magazines.
And here was I thinking that McLaren were targetting serious car enthusiasts
I suppose this means that MP4-12C owners will be meeting at Santa Pod then? 
http://www.santapod.co.uk/index.php
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fritz
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
fritz:
I suppose this means that MP4-12C owners will be meeting at Santa Pod then?
http://www.santapod.co.uk/index.php
As they are guys in America then I'd say it's more likely they'll be racing the lights from one Starbucks to the next, a few hundred metres up the road Oh, and then stopping in the car park outside the mall to drink their coffee, compare cars and see who has the shiniest there (sorry...... couldn't resist that ).
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
Realistically, very few of these cars are tracked. As a result, the measurement of performance is what occurs on public streets. Invariably, it involves drag racing. That includes Ferrari's, Lambo's, Porsche's, GT-R's. muscle cars and kit cars.
I have never witnesses street racing involving any kind of cornering. So here is my advice to you Iain. Don't mess with Porsche TT's, 12C's or GT-R's if you pull up to a light next to one of them in your 458.
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Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
Plenty of corners this side of the pond Nick 
It really doesn't worry me that the 12C is faster. The 458 was launched nearly 2 years ago so the new car should be quicker. The level of PR BS about the UK press reviews that McLaren were alledgedly doling out last night at the launch of a new dealership here is quite incredible though. According to a post on another MacL forum their Sales and Marketing director was said to have told a depositor that
"...he was incensed that they (Ferrari) cheated and described 12 different mods on the 458 ringer that was used. Forget the tyres, that car was very seriously different to a customer car on engine parts, tune inc rev limit, aero and weight to name but a few.
I won't break a confidence and post all the details here but he did say that if I bought a 12C and it didn't beat a customer spec 458 round a track, he would give me my money back!"
I'd love to know what these magical parts are and how they can be detected without taking the competitor's car into a workshop and stripping it down. Utter nonsense but the depositors are lapping it up it seems. The Sales & Marketing guy pointedly seems to have forgotten that his car was also beaten by the Gallardo spyder Performante and the GT2 RS. Were they also similarly tweaked or are they just plain better out of the box as well? 
Here is a pic taken from Car's website of the McLaren support mechanics working on the car after claiming it had suffered a hydraulic leak due to hand torqued shocks on the pre production line. Apparently the full production versions will be digitally torqued and that will cure all handling issues Looks like a lot of lap top "investigation" also going on 
Perhaps a case of not only can they not walk the walk in terms of claimed performance but also can't torque the torque?? 
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
ISUK:
Here is a pic taken from Car's website of the McLaren support mechanics working on the car after claiming it had suffered a hydraulic leak due to hand torqued shocks on the pre production line. Apparently the full production versions will be digitally torqued and that will cure all handling issues
The secret behind this pic (from Fchat):
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Jul 1, 2011 12:46:18 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
nberry:I have never witnesses street racing involving any kind of cornering. So here is my advice to you Iain. Don't mess with Porsche TT's, 12C's or GT-R's if you pull up to a light next to one of them in your 458.
Well Iain does not live in La Jolla .
I haven't witnessed any street racing here that involves stoplight drag racing.
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Jul 1, 2011 12:47:15 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
Rossi:
ISUK:
Here is a pic taken from Car's website of the McLaren support mechanics working on the car after claiming it had suffered a hydraulic leak due to hand torqued shocks on the pre production line. Apparently the full production versions will be digitally torqued and that will cure all handling issues
The secret behind this pic (from Fchat):
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Jul 1, 2011 11:17:57 PM
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GT
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSHL5_yIvII&feature=player_embedded
if these are customer cars then the 458 was definately a special press car ISUK..
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
I'm afraid drag races like that prove nothing as the first driver to get the "jump" will gain an advantage. Why do you think the second or third row of the F1 grid can get to the the first corner in the lead without having the fastest qualifying car? They simply get a better start
No one has disputed that the 12C is faster in a straight line. If you want to use drag times then please at least use tests like EVO where they use a V Box to prove the times.
All this nonsense about Ferrari using a "ringer" is rather foolish when you look at just how much they had to change the 360 Modena and F430 to create the Challenge Stradale and the Scuderia to liberate those vital extra 10ths of a second in acceleration. McLaren are really being desperate in claiming there were "at least twelve" modifications to the Ferrari test cars. As we've already said Ferrari used 3 different cars for these tests but on each occassion the same car completed all parts of the test - both road and track - without being worked on in between by the Ferrari support team. It's nigh on impossible to win a road test section that includes ride comfort by fielding a car with an aggressive track setting. I've even read a suggestion on the other forum that Ferrari were sending revised settings to their car via GPS downloading to the sat nav when it knew it was on the track
This is not about outright speed. It's about the clear misleading claims McLaren have made prior to the launch of this car. I raised all of the pertinent points over on mc-life (which I think you use) and no-one there has even attempted to start answering them. It really doesn't worry me as I'm not buying a 12C but if I were I'd be rather concerned that the car is not a game changer nor is it a clear winner as test after test has revealed but, and more importantly, seems to have totally transformed in terms of settings since it's initial press launch in Portugal.
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
BS, I am calling BS here. Anyone who has ever raced or drag raced cars can tell you that after launch is done and over with the only way a car catches another like this (esp automatics) is additional HP. And a lot of additional hp..
+60-80hp in my opinion
As I said that proves the ringer claims.. Pathetic from ferrari
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
Rewatch that "race". The 458 driver hasn't even used launch control and loses time with wheelspin which you can hear for some time. You can see the back end stepping out.
So much for this being definitive proof 
Not much will touch the AWD system of the 911 turbo for getting all the power down straight away and a 458 certainly won't if the driver doesn't go through the sequence of letting the launch control familiarise itself with the grip levels on the surface.
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
I find these types of discussions really "amusing"...we're arguing about degrees of greatness, not inferiority.
We should all remember that we are living in a true "golden age" of the automobile and how fortunate we are that we have a choice of great cars, whether it's a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, McLaren, Aston Martin, ......etc. 
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
Irrelevant! Seriously find anyone in your country that is into drag racing (I know its a ridiculous hobby but for arguments sake) show him this video and ask him if it is possible that the 2 Porsches and 2 458s can have similar hp in those 2 tests. Impossible. Either the turbo s is tuned on this one or the 458 is tuned on the first one.
The 458 loses approximately the same on first 2 or 3 gears so launch has not made such a big difference. (these drag races are quite serious for those participating so probably the guy thought that he can get better launch without it).
In any case in this video difference stays the same over 3rd gear. It the EUO video the 458 covers those 4 car lengths and opens up another 4 car lengths!! Do you know how much more power differencial you need to get that? More than 50/60hp (more like 80+).
Again I have no horse in this one (would never buy either cars and doubt I ll get the macca anyway) but this video is really indicative of the claims of foul play by the mclaren people..
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
GT:
Irrelevant! Seriously find anyone in your country that is into drag racing (I know its a ridiculous hobby but for arguments sake) show him this video and ask him if it is possible that the 2 Porsches and 2 458s can have similar hp in those 2 tests. Impossible. Either the turbo s is tuned on this one or the 458 is tuned on the first one. The 458 loses approximately the same on first 2 or 3 gears so launch has not made such a big difference. (these drag races are quite serious for those participating so probably the guy thought that he can get better launch without it). In any case in this video difference stays the same over 3rd gear. It the EUO video the 458 covers those 4 car lengths and opens up another 4 car lengths!! Do you know how much more power differencial you need to get that? More than 50/60hp (more like 80+). Again I have no horse in this one (would never buy either cars and doubt I ll get the macca anyway) but this video is really indicative of the claims of foul play by the mclaren people..
+1
Ferrari cheated! 12 sets of mods on the 458 that did the UK comps. McL have it all on file. It as all over the web for anyone who cares to look for it. Shouldn't be a surprise for anyone really, just take a look at F1, Alonso, team orders, shafting your team-mates, poor old Massa...Why would anyone buy into a brand like theirs??
Jul 4, 2011 8:03:10 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
GT:
BS, I am calling BS here. Anyone who has ever raced or drag raced cars can tell you that after launch is done and over with the only way a car catches another like this (esp automatics) is additional HP. And a lot of additional hp..
+60-80hp in my opinion
As I said that proves the ringer claims.. Pathetic from ferrari
I find 10x more pathetic what McLaren does. Creating hype around car´s performance with incredible claims for both straight line and a track and when tested it is far from the claims, significantly slower than GT2 RS in a straight line and slower than a Gallardo Spyder on a track. 
As to Ferrari, there are numerous other vids with customer cars on youtube that are in line with performance by press cars. 458 beating a 600hp GT-R (these are capable of 0-100km/h in 3,0s and 0-200km/h in 9,9s), another one keeping up with a 700hp GT-R, another one doing 132mph 1/4 mile without launch control (faster than MP4-12C press car results so far) and so on. An owner on lambopower did 100-200km/h in 6,6s with his brand new 458 (400km on it)... Again, in line with even the fastest press cars.
Sure it seems customers 458 either vary in power or are very sensitive to weather conditions, fuel quality being broken in etc. As there are also many videos where 458 are rather slow. These videos are usually coming from countries with doubtful fuel quality (Brazil, Russia..)
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
nberry:
Would not the poor quality gas issue apply to other cars as well.
Not necessarily. Some cars are more sensitive, some cars less. From what has been wrote on this forum, any Porsche is set up to use RON98 and anything more is useless. Ferrari is recommending RON100+ fuel for 458 to magazines for instrumented testing. Based on 458´s very high compression ratio, 458 could benefit from as much as 105 octanes or so.
Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
I don't remember which one, a turbo engine or a NA one, but one of the two is more tolerant with bad fuel. It has something to do with compression ratios. Also there is a big difference between them at higher altitudes.
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Re: Evo - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 vs Noble M600 vs Porsche Turbo S
As far as I know, NA engines lose power at higher altitudes (turbo engines as well, but not that much), turbo engines lose power at high temperatures (again, NA probably as well, but not that much). As regards fuel I´m not sure, might be strongly influenced by engine tuning, but I have seen some compression ratio vs octane rating graphs and it seemed 458 could benefit from fuel with as much as 105 octanes or even more. On the other hand, seriously tuned turbo engines (like 800+hp GT-R and 911 Turbos) are also very sensitive on octane rating and fuel quality.
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