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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:

    Understeer.  It happens to the best of us.

    Smiley, it just wouldn't turn. You could see him grappling with it Smiley


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    throt

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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Of course it's understeer...not indecision

     

     


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Taking a different race line than others just as Whoopsy wrote about HAM taking to gain that huge advantage.  Also GAS' car wasn't being directly affected aerodynamically by the close proximity of HAM's car.  VER knew he had the slower car and tossed everything possible to stop HAM from overtaking him. That's, like it or not, is what separates the greats from the mere mortals.  


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    How about the dirty air from Alonso car



    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    There goes Toto, whining again.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    JoeRockhead:

    There goes Toto, whining again.

     

    He did say from now on diplomacy has ended and he is going to drop down to Horner's level and play dirty. He is a man of his words.


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    JoeRockhead:

    How do you guys feel about the Senna / Prost battles? Everyone seems to remember Senna like a hero, but the parallels with Max are evident - both aggressive, win at all costs, highly competitive drivers. What's the difference? Reminiscence bias? 

     

    Prost was the one to crash into Senna first in order to win a championship.....Senna was just returning the favour to Prost, let him have his own medicine......

    I would say Schumacher is a better comparison with Max than Senna. Senna raced hard and ruthless, but never dirty.

    Max is a dirty racer, moving under braking, weaving on straights, barging around in corners, crashing into other racers, pretty much the same moves as with Schumacher. But like Schumacher, Max is super talented, both could have won on merits alone, there is no need for dirty tricks. Hamilton is a prime example of a successful clean racer, he never needed to resort to doing any of those. 

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:

    Taking a different race line than others just as Whoopsy wrote about HAM taking to gain that huge advantage.  Also GAS' car wasn't being directly affected aerodynamically by the close proximity of HAM's car.  VER knew he had the slower car and tossed everything possible to stop HAM from overtaking him. That's, like it or not, is what separates the greats from the mere mortals.  

     

    This is turn 4, not turn 12. For 70 laps, Max never took a different line through that corner. But for one lap, he took a very different line that takes him out of the outside white line....... it's actually not just turn 12 they uses different lines, turn 11 is where Hamilton's turn 12 advantage starts. Max takes a tight apex on turn 11 while Hamilton stay wide to open up that corner. For all 71 laps. Doesn't matter who is in front or behind. F1TV is great, they saved all the footage for all drivers and can be replayed. 

     

    Hamilton took the outside racing line into turn 4, Max is trapped on the inside. To even make the corner, he would need to slow down and braking even harder. just so he can actually turn into the corner. There is only two choices for him, one, graciously accept defeat, and perhaps find a way to battle back. Two, stay with Hamilton at speed, he knows he isn't making the corner but he can try and intimidate Hamilton into backing off with the threat of DNF for both cars. He chose the later, and Hamilton did indeed yield to avoid a collision. 

    Screen Shot 2021-11-16 at 10.02.35 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2021-11-16 at 10.03.28 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2021-11-16 at 10.02.54 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2021-11-16 at 10.04.13 AM.png

    This is his normal line through that corner. This screen cap is the lap after Hamilton finally passed him. Notice the very different steering angle.........His tires seems fine biting the road surface without the 'understeer'. More worn tires even, as they are another few laps older.

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    JoeRockhead:

    There goes Toto, whining again.

    This is an apt moment to point out that "Toto" is the very offensive slang term used for vagina in the Dominican Republic.

    Smiley


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    Gauss:

    Yes, the whole weekend was full of proof that FIA is trying hard to deny Hamilton his 8th WDC. Go Hamilton, show them! kissindecision

     

    He also got a fine for seabelt violation on the cool down lap as a parting gift. Smiley

    While it's a bit common practice for winning drivers to do that to gain a bit more room for celebration, FIA's reasoning is that he can't be setting a bad example for kids coming up the rank. Fantastic reasoning as swearing on the radio is acceptable for kids to learn. SmileySmileySmiley

     

    I really had no problem with the DQ on the uncomforming wing. But was baffling that Max didn't get a penalty for running him off the track. Max made no attempt to even get near the apex or stay within the racing surface. Exactly the same scenario in Silverstone as Hamilton was accused of doing. Only difference being at Silverstone Max made no attempt to avoid contact and bail out, but to turn into Hamilton and made contact instead, while in here Hamilton took evasive action to avoid contact. 

    FIA is supposed to look at onboard footage for Max's in car camera today, but even if they find something, I suspect they won't do anything after the fact, for fear of being accused of influencing the championship fight if they handed out supplementary penalty to Max. Imagine they say they are giving Max a 3 place or 5 place grid penalty for the next race, Max fans will riot everywhere!

    Now if Max wins the championship by a few points only, the record books might put an asterisk there for the fact that we had a non-race race result at Spa. 

    This was also kind of a silly comment from Max, like saying, I don't give a darn, and this in front of a young audience that is looking up to him. Smiley he clearly is not aware, or doesn't care because of his age, or attitude.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eln9VccDXU


    --

    2018 White 911 GT3


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    You know, the ONLY thing that happened to mercedes last week that was caused by RB is that one corner, in which they both went off, and Hamilton sailed straight passed just a lap later. The penalty for the new engine, the penalty for the wing not being within regulations, the taking off of LH’s seatbelts… they’re all things caused by themselves. WTF is Toto winging about?!? True, Max’s move was not ok, but as I said, it was clear that Lewis would pass him anyway.


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    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Joost:

    You know, the ONLY thing that happened to mercedes last week that was caused by RB is that one corner, in which they both went off, and Hamilton sailed straight passed just a lap later. The penalty for the new engine, the penalty for the wing not being within regulations, the taking off of LH’s seatbelts… they’re all things caused by themselves. WTF is Toto winging about?!? True, Max’s move was not ok, but as I said, it was clear that Lewis would pass him anyway.

    However a few posters here thought Mercedes and HAM shouldn’t have received the DQ for its wing infraction.  Finally, the spectators are getting a well deserved season instead of the usual cookie cutter format. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Lets hope Honda can give Mad Max some more power down the straights.

    If that happens then Max is a hot favourite. 

    For outright race pace Max has got him.


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    991 GT3.2 pick up April/May 2018. ( Hairy Chest Spec ).

    Vauxhall Zafira 1.6 Exclusive pick up June 2013. ( Shit Box )

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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    JoeRockhead:

    There goes Toto, whining again.

     

    He did say from now on diplomacy has ended and he is going to drop down to Horner's level and play dirty. He is a man of his words.

    Haha. When was Toto ever diplomatic? To Horner's credit, he did say if the shoe was the other foot, he would complain about it too.

    Any data on the speed they were going into that corner vs previous laps? I think they both went in a bit hot.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Joost:

    You know, the ONLY thing that happened to mercedes last week that was caused by RB is that one corner, in which they both went off, and Hamilton sailed straight passed just a lap later. The penalty for the new engine, the penalty for the wing not being within regulations, the taking off of LH’s seatbelts… they’re all things caused by themselves. WTF is Toto winging about?!? True, Max’s move was not ok, but as I said, it was clear that Lewis would pass him anyway.

    I find that most of Hamilton's woes are now, and have always been, self inflicted. He and his team put themselves in bad places and he has to get out of them. Then you get comments like 'what a drive from Hamilton going from 10th to first', when he easily had the fastest car on the grid and shouldn't have been there in the first place. He looks like a hero for fixing his own mistakes. Smiley


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Years and years fans were shouting F1 became to boring, now we have a (fierce) fight everyone starts crying again. Did we forget the Shummi antics? That's what racing is about, nice guys end last.


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW 745e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    throt:

    Lets hope Honda can give Mad Max some more power down the straights.

    If that happens then Max is a hot favourite. 

    For outright race pace Max has got him.

     

    Honda isn't scheduled to have anymore new engines for Red Bull.

    But The Mercedes and Honda engines have completely different aging curves. Mercedes has a bigger delta between new and used. See Bottas vs Hamilton top speed. Bottas was using the brand new engine that was introduced at Mexico, so it's one race old. 

    Across the start/finish line, Hamilton clocked in at 323.8km/hr, and that, is actually only 6th fastest, 5 more cars are faster there. Bottas is 11th at 320.3km/hr. Max has the slowest of everyone, at 316.1km/hr. Hard to believe but yes he is slowest coming out of turn 12 up the hill among the field. One could say he lost the GP at that turn as he didn't get max acceleration out of turn 12, leading to him going defensive heading into turn 1 and put himself out of position for 2 and 3 then being passed before turn 4. 

    Some more data, between start and finish line to braking point turn 1, Hamilton gained another 3.7km/hr, Bottas only gained 1.7km/hr. Max however gained 2.6km/hr. 

    About the Honda engines, Horner has gone on record stating that their Honda engines are incredibly consistent, the performance drop off during the life of the engine is only worth about 0.1 second.

    Red Bull have a high drag car that's great in turns, if they want more top speed on straights, they will need to run low drag wings but that would compromises their performance in turns. Mercedes is the other way for their cars, they have a low drag car that performs great on straights but needed extra wing downforce and drag just to get around corners. 

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    throt:

    Lets hope Honda can give Mad Max some more power down the straights.

    If that happens then Max is a hot favourite. 

    For outright race pace Max has got him.

     

    Honda isn't scheduled to have anymore new engines for Red Bull.

    But The Mercedes and Honda engines have completely different aging curves. Mercedes has a bigger delta between new and used. See Bottas vs Hamilton top speed. Bottas was using the brand new engine that was introduced at Mexico, so it's one race old. 

    Across the start/finish line, Hamilton clocked in at 323.8km/hr, and that, is actually only 6th fastest, 5 more cars are faster there. Bottas is 11th at 320.3km/hr. Max has the slowest of everyone, at 316.1km/hr. Hard to believe but yes he is slowest coming out of turn 12 up the hill among the field. One could say he lost the GP at that turn as he didn't get max acceleration out of turn 12, leading to him going defensive heading into turn 1 and put himself out of position for 2 and 3 then being passed before turn 4. 

    Some more data, between start and finish line to braking point turn 1, Hamilton gained another 3.7km/hr, Bottas only gained 1.7km/hr. Max however gained 2.6km/hr. 

    About the Honda engines, Horner has gone on record stating that their Honda engines are incredibly consistent, the performance drop off during the life of the engine is only worth about 0.1 second.

    Red Bull have a high drag car that's great in turns, if they want more top speed on straights, they will need to run low drag wings but that would compromises their performance in turns. Mercedes is the other way for their cars, they have a low drag car that performs great on straights but needed extra wing downforce and drag just to get around corners. 

     

     

    When HAM has DSR against VER, that delta is becoming close to the 30 km/hr differential stated by Horner in his presser at the end of the race. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:
    Whoopsy:
    throt:

    Lets hope Honda can give Mad Max some more power down the straights.

    If that happens then Max is a hot favourite. 

    For outright race pace Max has got him.

     

    Honda isn't scheduled to have anymore new engines for Red Bull.

    But The Mercedes and Honda engines have completely different aging curves. Mercedes has a bigger delta between new and used. See Bottas vs Hamilton top speed. Bottas was using the brand new engine that was introduced at Mexico, so it's one race old. 

    Across the start/finish line, Hamilton clocked in at 323.8km/hr, and that, is actually only 6th fastest, 5 more cars are faster there. Bottas is 11th at 320.3km/hr. Max has the slowest of everyone, at 316.1km/hr. Hard to believe but yes he is slowest coming out of turn 12 up the hill among the field. One could say he lost the GP at that turn as he didn't get max acceleration out of turn 12, leading to him going defensive heading into turn 1 and put himself out of position for 2 and 3 then being passed before turn 4. 

    Some more data, between start and finish line to braking point turn 1, Hamilton gained another 3.7km/hr, Bottas only gained 1.7km/hr. Max however gained 2.6km/hr. 

    About the Honda engines, Horner has gone on record stating that their Honda engines are incredibly consistent, the performance drop off during the life of the engine is only worth about 0.1 second.

    Red Bull have a high drag car that's great in turns, if they want more top speed on straights, they will need to run low drag wings but that would compromises their performance in turns. Mercedes is the other way for their cars, they have a low drag car that performs great on straights but needed extra wing downforce and drag just to get around corners. 

     

     

    When HAM has DSR against VER, that delta is becoming close to the 30 km/hr differential stated by Horner in his presser at the end of the race. 

     

    Wrote and posted it earlier. The delta wasn't 30km/hr as Horner 'claimed'. It was shown on screen during the race and mentioned during the broadcast numerous time that the delta is ~20km/hr. 

    Speed difference is especially noticeable and magnified cause Max can't master the exit of turn 12. Slowest trap speed at the start/fininsh line among the whole field, behind both Haas cars and Alfa Romeos and Williams. Not just behind Mercedes or McLaren. Max is slower on the speed gun than Mazepin. 

    There could be an explanation. That Red Bull ran a max downforce wing for Max, prioritizing sector 2 times over straightaway speed, and a less draggy wing for Perez, hence Perez can achieve a faster trap speed at the line.

    Now if they were doing that, then it doesn't look that bad for Max having lower speed than his teammate Perez. But it also means the difference in speed between them and Mercedes isn't much to talk about as Red Bull purposely throw away top speed for handling. 

    The choice is yours, whether you want to believe Max isn't that good out of turn 12, or he was great out of turn 12 but he handed a slower car on purpose by Red Bull. You can't have it both ways. The numbers don't support it. 

    I am leaning towards car setup differences. Red Bull ran a high downforce car for handling but cry foul when they lose out on top speed. 

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    The delta during much of the race is irrelevant to when HAM passed VER.  


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:

    The delta during much of the race is irrelevant to when HAM passed VER.  

     

    When Hamilton finally got past Max, Max had a compromised turn 1, turn 2 and turn 3 because of his defensive driving on the main straight, thinking Hamilton is going to make a move there.

    It's basic race craft, setting up someone in front of you for the eventual passing maneuver. Something they teach in race school 101.

    By moving inside on turn 1 prematurely, Max was out of position for 1, then 2 and finally 3. He has no chance to even get up to speed on the DRS straight that came after. That passing delta there is irrelevant now as Hamilton has a perfect exit and Max is limping towards turn 4. Especially so since he can't weave around anymore as he already got warned. The classic sitting duck.

    You got it a bit wrong there. 

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    JoeRockhead:
    Joost:

    You know, the ONLY thing that happened to mercedes last week that was caused by RB is that one corner, in which they both went off, and Hamilton sailed straight passed just a lap later. The penalty for the new engine, the penalty for the wing not being within regulations, the taking off of LH’s seatbelts… they’re all things caused by themselves. WTF is Toto winging about?!? True, Max’s move was not ok, but as I said, it was clear that Lewis would pass him anyway.

    I find that most of Hamilton's woes are now, and have always been, self inflicted. He and his team put themselves in bad places and he has to get out of them. Then you get comments like 'what a drive from Hamilton going from 10th to first', when he easily had the fastest car on the grid and shouldn't have been there in the first place. He looks like a hero for fixing his own mistakes. Smiley

    How is a 20 place grid penalty for a broken DRS wing and 5 place grid penalty for new engine self inflicted by Hamilton?  If anything he showed class by not ripping his team like others may have and choosing to throw his arms around them and saying let’s go!


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Prost was the one to crash into Senna first in order to win a championship.....Senna was just returning the favour to Prost, let him have his own medicine......

    I would say Schumacher is a better comparison with Max than Senna. Senna raced hard and ruthless, but never dirty.

    Max is a dirty racer, moving under braking, weaving on straights, barging around in corners, crashing into other racers, pretty much the same moves as with Schumacher. But like Schumacher, Max is super talented, both could have won on merits alone, there is no need for dirty tricks. Hamilton is a prime example of a successful clean racer, he never needed to resort to doing any of those. 

     

    I totally agree with you, Max reminds me a lot of Shumi...  great talent but lacks in many different areas Smiley


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    thuggy:
    JoeRockhead:
    Joost:

    You know, the ONLY thing that happened to mercedes last week that was caused by RB is that one corner, in which they both went off, and Hamilton sailed straight passed just a lap later. The penalty for the new engine, the penalty for the wing not being within regulations, the taking off of LH’s seatbelts… they’re all things caused by themselves. WTF is Toto winging about?!? True, Max’s move was not ok, but as I said, it was clear that Lewis would pass him anyway.

    I find that most of Hamilton's woes are now, and have always been, self inflicted. He and his team put themselves in bad places and he has to get out of them. Then you get comments like 'what a drive from Hamilton going from 10th to first', when he easily had the fastest car on the grid and shouldn't have been there in the first place. He looks like a hero for fixing his own mistakes. Smiley

    How is a 20 place grid penalty for a broken DRS wing and 5 place grid penalty for new engine self inflicted by Hamilton?  If anything he showed class by not ripping his team like others may have and choosing to throw his arms around them and saying let’s go!

     

    Don't forget he isn't a selfish guy either, he radioed asking Bottas to stay with him and chase down the Red Bulls. It isn't just about him, it's about the team.

    Off track, maybe he is, well, questionable. But on track when he is in his office, he is a model class act. Kids coming up the racing rank would do well copying how he carries and present himself. he never swears in his radio, he never whines about this and that, he might question some decisions but he still stick with it and gut it out no matter what. 

    His famous words after winning his 7th rings so true. 

    "That's for all the kids out there, who dream the impossible. You can do it too man! I believe in your guys!"

    When the weekend started, he believed he could win. Once the news about the engine change and needing a 5 place grid drop broke, he still believe he can win, especially when he went all out in qualifying to secure 1st place, which means he would starts 6th. at Sprint. And after the DQ at Sprint dropping him to start last, he dug in and charge up the field to secure 5th, 10th after the grid drop. Even at that time he still believe he can do it. Sunday came around and he hunkered down and well, he won. Accomplishing the well, impossible. Gaining literally 24 spots in the process. 

    He didn't start off as the son of a billionaire, nor was he started off well connected like a Rosberg or a Verstappen. He made the impossible happened. As a 10 year old, after winning the British Karting Championship, he walks up to Ron Dennis and asked for his phone number, telling Ron that one day he wanted to be World Champion driving Ron's car. Ron told him to call in 9 years. That was 1995. Ron called Hamilton after 3 years to offer him a contract. That's the impossible dream most kids dream of. 

    it's not likely that he will win #8 this year, but it's not impossible. Knowing he still has a mathematical chance, Lewis will give it all just to try. 

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    With the remaining tracks, I think the straight line pace could well easily hand Ham the 8th.

    RB, make no mistake, are concerned about this.


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    991 GT3.2 pick up April/May 2018. ( Hairy Chest Spec ).

    Vauxhall Zafira 1.6 Exclusive pick up June 2013. ( Shit Box )

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    throt:

    With the remaining tracks, I think the straight line pace could well easily hand Ham the 8th.

    RB, make no mistake, are concerned about this.

    Agree and this why RB and VER are fighting so hard.  They know what they are up against and will not stop competing until the final checkered flag drops.  One must admire that level of conviction to bring home the championship, albeit sometimes emotions get the best of Max.  Too bad only RB is able to launch a challenge against the mighty MB team this year. 



    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Great analysis by Palmer.   The more I look at it... this incident was more egregious a racing incident than their Silverstone incident.  Clearly not the same result, no-one ended up shunting into a wall.  But if Hamilton who stayed on track and made the corner in Silverstone, got a penalty, surely Max deserves a penalty here as he had no hope to make the corner or even attempted to stay on track.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    While the race stewards noted the incident, they decided against investigating it with Red Bull arguing the incident was merely hard racing. Hamilton himself said afterwards: "It was fine. This is what a world championship battle should look like."

    Just the fans and of course Toto that are upset about it I guess. yes

    https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autosport/1522439/Red-Bull-reaction-Mercedes-appeal-Lewis-Hamilton-Max-Verstappen-incident-Br...

     


     
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