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    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Before I ordered my TT I went to the Ferrari dealer and the salesman told me "Ferrari was not a daily drive automobile"
    I will put about 20K per year on my C4S and love it.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Are you serious? I really love Ferrari. But a Ferrari is an Italian car. And like all Italian cars it has a build quality far from perfect.





    That's simply not true any longer, starting with the 360 imo. Some say starting with the 355, but in my experience the 360 is the first Ferrari with truly Porsche-competitive reliability. I've owned both brands and the Ferrari is right there with Porsche now. Most Ferrari owners don't drive their cars as much as Porsche guys do, in most cases because they own 6 or 8 (or more) cars, not because they aren't reliable.

    Gary

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    drbf said:
    Before I ordered my TT I went to the Ferrari dealer and the salesman told me "Ferrari was not a daily drive automobile"




    Did you consider the idea he might have been enhancing the "special aura" of the car? The only reason not to daily-drive a Ferrari now is the attention factor and parking considerations (vehicle security).

    Gary

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    Gary(SF) said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Are you serious? I really love Ferrari. But a Ferrari is an Italian car. And like all Italian cars it has a build quality far from perfect.





    That's simply not true any longer, starting with the 360 imo. Some say starting with the 355, but in my experience the 360 is the first Ferrari with truly Porsche-competitive reliability. I've owned both brands and the Ferrari is right there with Porsche now. Most Ferrari owners don't drive their cars as much as Porsche guys do, in most cases because they own 6 or 8 (or more) cars, not because they aren't reliable.

    Gary



    The above list of malfunctions relates to a F360. This car had many serious flaws. Not just one or two. And the flaws were that substantial that Ferrari could not eliminate them.

    Ferrari is not even close to Porsche in terms of quality and reliability. And if I should guess, they will never get close any time in the future. Just visit Maranello and you will know why I say that. There is simply a different work attitude in Zuffenhausen and Maranello

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    I think Mercedes has the worst build quality of perhaps ANY European manufacturer.

    There is no other car company that has burned off so much customer good will as Daimler Chrysler and thats for both its Mercedes and Chrysler makes.

    There simply has never been such a quality melt down in the automobile industry as the one perpetrated by Mercedes.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Gary(SF) said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Are you serious? I really love Ferrari. But a Ferrari is an Italian car. And like all Italian cars it has a build quality far from perfect.





    That's simply not true any longer, starting with the 360 imo. Some say starting with the 355, but in my experience the 360 is the first Ferrari with truly Porsche-competitive reliability. I've owned both brands and the Ferrari is right there with Porsche now. Most Ferrari owners don't drive their cars as much as Porsche guys do, in most cases because they own 6 or 8 (or more) cars, not because they aren't reliable.

    Gary



    The above list of malfunctions relates to a F360. This car had many serious flaws. Not just one or two. And the flaws were that substantial that Ferrari could not eliminate them.

    Ferrari is not even close to Porsche in terms of quality and reliability. And if I should guess, they will never get close any time in the future. Just visit Maranello and you will know why I say that. There is simply a different work attitude in Zuffenhausen and Maranello



    I've been to both Maranello and Zuffenhausen, and I don't anticipate owning a Porsche in the future. Sorry to hear about your 360 problems, in my experience (and that of a number of friends) they are not at all representative of the car, but then any manufacturer can build a dud, and I've certainly seen it in the Porsche world.

    Gary

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    Gary(SF) said:
    That's simply not true any longer, starting with the 360 imo. Some say starting with the 355, but in my experience the 360 is the first Ferrari with truly Porsche-competitive reliability.
    Gary

    the 355?
    beautiful car, but you are the first person i have heard use 355 and reliable in the same sentence

    jeff

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    I think there is not enough real info for a good comparison. We have mass produced cars made in relatively large quantities that are regularly driven to high mileages in all condions on the one hand vs. limited production cars in a generally different price class normally with low mileage and typically used in better weather only.

    Two different situations.

    Until a lot of people start to put 100,000 to 200,000 miles on their Ferraris, the answer to this quesiton will not be resolved I believe.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    amjf088 said:...Until a lot of people start to put 100,000 to 200,000 miles on their Ferraris, the answer to this quesiton will not be resolved I believe.



    Precisely!

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    I had 14k miles on my 355 and have 8k on my 360 without any problems. I also had 85k miles on my 993tt without anything wrong other than to replace the turbos at 82k. Maybe I have been fortunate.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    DJB said:
    I had 14k miles on my 355 and have 8k on my 360 without any problems. I also had 85k miles on my 993tt without anything wrong other than to replace the turbos at 82k. Maybe I have been fortunate.



    F355 14k miles

    F360 8k miles

    P993TT 85k miles

    I think that sums up the situation nicely.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    DJB said:
    I had 14k miles on my 355 and have 8k on my 360 without any problems. I also had 85k miles on my 993tt without anything wrong other than to replace the turbos at 82k. Maybe I have been fortunate.



    F355 14k miles

    F360 8k miles

    P993TT 85k miles

    I think that sums up the situation nicely.




    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    amjf088 said:
    Until a lot of people start to put 100,000 to 200,000 miles on their Ferraris, the answer to this quesiton will not be resolved I believe.



    I seldom own any car past about 40k miles, so I don't really think this is a huge point for most drivers (just speaking for myself, I could be wrong here if most want to put 100k plus on their cars). It's reliablity in the first few years that interests me, including how it holds up to track days. And the 360 was flawless for me, as is the 430 so far.

    Gary

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    You bet. The mileage shows how I use the cars! The Porsche is an unequaled combo of daily driver with exceptional performance and doesn't stand out unnecessarily.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Thanks all and I think everyone's opinions count. There are Ferrari advocates here and there are P advocates. I am slightly leaning more towards P because the 911 has been a continuous success/legend for the past 50+ odd years and I think by now P has figure out almost all glitches. The model range of Ferrari tends to grow (GT like 599, 2 Seaters like 430, 612 Scaglietti...) and there just isn't enough long term reliability data to study on. By now more or less some would agree that P is growing more and more in the direction of a volume producer and that's also the reason why JD Power could rate its quality. The sample size of any reliability study must be large enough to show statistically significant results/data. For e.g., it would be quite hard to truly know reliability on the Coutech or the Gallardo and Murcielago because there are too few of them to make any significant meaning to a study. If we look around, we see plenty of 911 being used for daily commute because it is one of the few sportscars that possess supercars ability/quality (997 turbo 3.7 s is still to me a real amazing achivement at 3.6 L) , stand up to the test of time as an icon yet practical and chic enough to take a spin down to the supermarket. Hence, I think 997s or 997TT would definitely be my pick. Plus for some unknown reason, F cars with more than 10K km a year depreciate significantly faster than a P car of similar attribute with similar mileages. This leads me anecdotally to believe that P cars even used as daily commuters stand up better when it comes to resale than F cars being used as daily commuters. It is indeed a challenge for owners like me to have to worry about driving my car too worrying that it would affect resale value. From my personal observation, I could only see that in the HK market, P cars is definitely top of the list on resale even at high mileages and age. People tend to believe that F cars with high mileages just aren't worth as much and F cars usually sell best when they have 5,000 - 10,000 km on their odometers.

    The market price of any product is always a reflection of consumers' preference and needs and this to me means that people may have the stereotypical view that F cars with high mileages are less dependable compared to P cars with equally high mileages. I see 993 and prior 911 with 50+ km odometer still selling with high residual value.

    It maybe unfair but my German roommate always says that the sexiest car ever to him is still the Porsche 930 and yet (we grew up together over Magnum PI and Miami Vice) if we were to drive Magnum PI's Ferrari and that white one from Don Johnson's era today, he would feel like driving a toy car and he would be afraid that pushing them too hard may break them. This simply means that people TEND to believe that 911s even from the 70s have excellent reliabilities.

    All in all, high mileages Ferrari s are just harder to sell around town than similarly driven Porsche.

    Personally, I think 997 is the top choice on most fronts and factors. It is true that there is no point buying a F430 paying for all the insurance only to have to ride a Taxi to a friend's house for dinner worrying that it may depreciate too much (or having to ride the shuttle to the airport in case mileages build up).

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    or try this if you are millionaire playboys like Roger Moore:

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060504.007/country/ecf/ascari/wcf-test-drive-ascari-kz1

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    ptcja said:
    or try this if you are millionaire playboys like Roger Moore:

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060504.007/country/ecf/ascari/wcf-test-drive-ascari-kz1



    Sharp car! Kind of looks like a cross between a Porsche a Viper and a Vette!

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    DJB said:
    I had 14k miles on my 355 and have 8k on my 360 without any problems. I also had 85k miles on my 993tt without anything wrong other than to replace the turbos at 82k. Maybe I have been fortunate.



    F355 14k miles

    F360 8k miles

    P993TT 85k miles

    I think that sums up the situation nicely.



    Yup, Ferraris are meant to be enjoyed. Every time you turn the ignition, it's an occassion.

    Porsches are for the daily grind. Starbucks anyone?

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    And its so special to have the performance, dependability and creature comforts of the Porsche tt for the daily transpo......it makes my day, every day. Then, when the weather's nice, to put the top down and hear the vrooom when the ignition is turned in a Ferrari starts the pulse racing. Wow.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Yup, Ferraris are meant to be enjoyed. Every time you turn the ignition, it's an occassion.




    I agree, it truly is an occasion. Especially if the car actually STARTS .

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    My 355 ran perfect for me. I put 6500 miles on it with no problems. It had not broken down in the 3 years prior to my ownership as well. It was driven often though. That's the worst thing for most Ferraris. They don't driven often enough so they sit and dy up. Thus they break down more often than they should. Boats are the same way. You have to drive them often to keep them running well.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    'Races are won on the straightaway, not in the corners.' nberry


    The 997 Turbo Tip accelerates faster than the manual in a straight line. But the manual has better cornering traction and despite slower acceleration is faster around the NBR.

    When cars of exactly equal performance race, driver skill in the cornersdetermines the winner.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    You are correct AUM. Any true racer knows that the exit speed of the turn before a straight is the key to carrying that advantage down the straight. This is driver skill and that exit speed is often set up with the previous couple of turns. This is different than drag racing.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    As a Porsche owner since 1978, I've quite an interest in cars. Last March while in Las Vegas, I visited the new and used showrooms of "Penske" Ferrari. You get the pleasure of viewing their inventory after paying a $10 dollor entry fee. The used cars, sorry, pre-owned cars, are located in the lower level. There I found 15-20 360's and 430's. All where 2001 - 2004 models with from 500 to 2500 miles. Many were for sale on consignment. I asked the pre-owned sales manager how many miles the typical Ferrari owner drives a year. His response: "Well it depends upon the owner but it would range from 500 to 2000 miles per year". Now I don't drive my TT in midwestern winters, but I do enjoy it for 8-10,000 miles per year. I could only think, why own such a wonderful machine and only drive it a few hundred miles per year so that you could have the satisfaction of offering it for sale with 2000 miles? What a pity. What a waste. I'll wager Enzo Ferrari drove his cars more than that.

    Cheers,

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Fred, I will try and explain what happens. Generally, the wait time for a new Ferrari is about 18-24 months once you have put down a $10k deposit. Once you take deliver, the car is immediately worth a premium of $35-50k on the secondary mnarket due to the wait time. If you sell (other than through a dealer) you will be blacklisted and not welcome into the queue again. If you drive your car over 2000 miles, it is not regarded as "new" and is more difficult to sell (at a premium). It takes a while for a lower priced market to develop for higher mileage and less than msrp priced models (say 2-4 years after you bought it). The result is a choice: drive your car and go into uncertainty of ability to sell, or treat each mile carefully and preserve the marketability so you can take deliver of another new one and pay for it with the sale of the used (new to someone else not in the queue). I hope this gives you an understanding of what is a rather interesting, but silly situation.

    Cheers,

    David

    4

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    DJB said:
    Fred, I will try and explain what happens. Generally, the wait time for a new Ferrari is about 18-24 months once you have put down a $10k deposit. Once you take deliver, the car is immediately worth a premium of $35-50k on the secondary mnarket due to the wait time. If you sell (other than through a dealer) you will be blacklisted and not welcome into the queue again. If you drive your car over 2000 miles, it is not regarded as "new" and is more difficult to sell (at a premium). It takes a while for a lower priced market to develop for higher mileage and less than msrp priced models (say 2-4 years after you bought it). The result is a choice: drive your car and go into uncertainty of ability to sell, or treat each mile carefully and preserve the marketability so you can take deliver of another new one and pay for it with the sale of the used (new to someone else not in the queue). I hope this gives you an understanding of what is a rather interesting, but silly situation.

    Cheers,

    David

    4



    Sucks if you ask me!!!!

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Yep. Well, of course, you can just buy your car at whatever price you can get it and drive it as much as you want. Its not a right wing plot.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    DJB said:
    Fred, I will try and explain what happens. Generally, the wait time for a new Ferrari is about 18-24 months once you have put down a $10k deposit. Once you take deliver, the car is immediately worth a premium of $35-50k on the secondary mnarket due to the wait time. If you sell (other than through a dealer) you will be blacklisted and not welcome into the queue again. If you drive your car over 2000 miles, it is not regarded as "new" and is more difficult to sell (at a premium). It takes a while for a lower priced market to develop for higher mileage and less than msrp priced models (say 2-4 years after you bought it). The result is a choice: drive your car and go into uncertainty of ability to sell, or treat each mile carefully and preserve the marketability so you can take deliver of another new one and pay for it with the sale of the used (new to someone else not in the queue). I hope this gives you an understanding of what is a rather interesting, but silly situation.

    Cheers,

    David

    4



    Fascinating. Thank you for the insight, David. I always wondered about the chain of logic that drove the used Ferrari market.

    BTW, what options/color do you have for your 997tt? I'm making my list.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    I just picked it up this afternoon and will post some picture tomorrow.

    Artic Silver
    Stone grey
    multifunction steering wheel with carbon fiber
    pccb
    sports chrono
    adjustable sport seats
    red seat belts
    rear parking assist
    Porsche crests in headrests
    center piece in exterior color
    gsm phone module

    I think that's it.

    Re: Long term reliability Porsche V Ferrari

    Quote:
    DJB said:
    Fred, I will try and explain what happens. Generally, the wait time for a new Ferrari is about 18-24 months once you have put down a $10k deposit. Once you take deliver, the car is immediately worth a premium of $35-50k on the secondary mnarket due to the wait time. If you sell (other than through a dealer) you will be blacklisted and not welcome into the queue again. If you drive your car over 2000 miles, it is not regarded as "new" and is more difficult to sell (at a premium). It takes a while for a lower priced market to develop for higher mileage and less than msrp priced models (say 2-4 years after you bought it). The result is a choice: drive your car and go into uncertainty of ability to sell, or treat each mile carefully and preserve the marketability so you can take deliver of another new one and pay for it with the sale of the used (new to someone else not in the queue). I hope this gives you an understanding of what is a rather interesting, but silly situation.

    Cheers,

    David

    4



    So let me get this straight. If it is really the case for the Ferrari to appreciate significantly immediately after purchase and yet you can't sell it (due to the possibility of being blacklisted), then you should just drive it ever so slightly up to 2000 miles so you can still preserve its value? So anything past 2000 miles would be considered high mileages and the value would plummet I presume. So in the first place, you are really buying a Ferrari in hope that it will appreciate so you can use the proceeds to buy another new one? If you were to ask me, buying a Ferrari as a vehicle of investment hoping that it would appreciate or at least sell for the same MSRP price is not a wise move. You would have a better chance to make money by putting all those $$$ in the stock market buying McDonald's stocks or Coca Cola stocks. Cars seldom go up in value except very very rare ones like the Ferrari Dino or maybe ENZO or Pagani Zonda F. Cars to me are pretty much depreciating assets in almost all cases. Hence, I would simply buy a Ferrari and drive the heck out of it so at least to make the money worth my while. It's a catch 22 and a rather silly situation for those who spend so much money only allowing the nice RED HOTTY sit right in the Garage.

     
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