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    Re: For comparison: 200-300kph in a 599GTB

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    BTW: I just did some 200-300 kph test on the AB in a 599GTB with just 2600km on the odometer. (Test based on real - not indicated - speed.)

    The result was ca. 18.5s. Not bad Italian horses seem to of similar size as German horses these days



    Whoa, that's fast! What does the GT2 do? Around 22 or so?



    So Crash you believe the 599 will do 0-300 in under 30 sec now?



    Not really, at least not on average. Then again, there is no reason why you couldn't be right.



    At least the 599GTB should do it in approximately 30s. Even if you added a safety margin of 1s to my result 30s would still be the "approximate number" Congrats to Maranello



    Have to agree on that. That being said, weren't you really incredulous of the Nardo test results when they came out? It really is hard to believe that this car, with loads of space, a proper trunk and a hefty weight is nearly as fast to 300 km/h as an Enzo .

    Re: For comparison: 200-300kph in a 599GTB

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    BTW: I just did some 200-300 kph test on the AB in a 599GTB with just 2600km on the odometer. (Test based on real - not indicated - speed.)

    The result was ca. 18.5s. Not bad Italian horses seem to of similar size as German horses these days



    Whoa, that's fast! What does the GT2 do? Around 22 or so?



    So Crash you believe the 599 will do 0-300 in under 30 sec now?



    Not really, at least not on average. Then again, there is no reason why you couldn't be right.



    At least the 599GTB should do it in approximately 30s. Even if you added a safety margin of 1s to my result 30s would still be the "approximate number" Congrats to Maranello



    Have to agree on that. That being said, weren't you really incredulous of the Nardo test results when they came out? It really is hard to believe that this car, with loads of space, a proper trunk and a hefty weight is nearly as fast to 300 km/h as an Enzo .



    That's true. But then: the Enzo is another 4s quicker to 300kph and also quite a bit faster (350kph+ vs 330kph). Thus, the Enzo gearing might be a bit longer to allow for the higher top-speed?

    Re: For comparison: 200-300kph in a 599GTB

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    BTW: I just did some 200-300 kph test on the AB in a 599GTB with just 2600km on the odometer. (Test based on real - not indicated - speed.)

    The result was ca. 18.5s. Not bad Italian horses seem to of similar size as German horses these days



    Whoa, that's fast! What does the GT2 do? Around 22 or so?



    So Crash you believe the 599 will do 0-300 in under 30 sec now?



    Not really, at least not on average. Then again, there is no reason why you couldn't be right.



    At least the 599GTB should do it in approximately 30s. Even if you added a safety margin of 1s to my result 30s would still be the "approximate number" Congrats to Maranello



    Have to agree on that. That being said, weren't you really incredulous of the Nardo test results when they came out? It really is hard to believe that this car, with loads of space, a proper trunk and a hefty weight is nearly as fast to 300 km/h as an Enzo .



    That's true. But then: the Enzo is another 4s quicker to 300kph and also quite a bit faster (350kph+ vs 330kph). Thus, the Enzo gearing might be a bit longer to allow for the higher top-speed?



    That's true, but then again, how often can you break 330 anyway?

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    So do you think that the times CG released for the 645 and 600 kits (23 secs and 26 secs to 300 km/h respectively) are fantasy?




    It does look that way doesn't it ?
    These numbers were given word of mouth and it looks like they were "estimates" -remember not everyone takes these numbers as seriously as we do
    I am wondering how much the Cargraphic wings slowed that 624hp/1495kg car down since it was extremely fast to 250kph then seemed to be hit by drag (or heat soak - but seems unlikely given that it should have had the Secan coolers)

    I have some experience of this - I fitted an "alternative" front PU/spoiler to my 993tt which had much bigger openings. When I tested this new set up the car accelerated identically to before (when it wore a factory ttS spoiler) up to 270kph then it slowed markedly to the point that it took 3 seconds more to go from 270kph to 300kph which translated into an extra 300m !!! It could possibly be the case that the CG wings slowed this car down over 250kph compared to a factory 0.29Cd car which RS may have been reffering to
    The graph for my 993tt experiment is below:

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    So do you think that the times CG released for the 645 and 600 kits (23 secs and 26 secs to 300 km/h respectively) are fantasy?




    It does look that way doesn't it ?
    These numbers were given word of mouth and it looks like they were "estimates" -remember not everyone takes these numbers as seriously as we do
    I am wondering how much the Cargraphic wings slowed that 624hp/1495kg car down since it was extremely fast to 250kph then seemed to be hit by drag (or heat soak - but seems unlikely given that it should have had the Secan coolers)

    I have some experience of this - I fitted an "alternative" front PU/spoiler to my 993tt which had much bigger openings. When I tested this new set up the car accelerated identically to before (when it wore a factory ttS spoiler) up to 270kph then it slowed markedly to the point that it took 3 seconds more to go from 270kph to 300kph which translated into an extra 300m !!! It could possibly be the case that the CG wings slowed this car down over 250kph compared to a factory 0.29Cd car which RS may have been reffering to
    The graph for my 993tt experiment is below:



    Could very well be the aerodynamics, given that you've experienced the same thing. It really is amazing to see the graph and how the two lines diverge at the 20-second mark .

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    So do you think that the times CG released for the 645 and 600 kits (23 secs and 26 secs to 300 km/h respectively) are fantasy?




    It does look that way doesn't it ?
    These numbers were given word of mouth and it looks like they were "estimates" -remember not everyone takes these numbers as seriously as we do
    I am wondering how much the Cargraphic wings slowed that 624hp/1495kg car down since it was extremely fast to 250kph then seemed to be hit by drag (or heat soak - but seems unlikely given that it should have had the Secan coolers)

    I have some experience of this - I fitted an "alternative" front PU/spoiler to my 993tt which had much bigger openings. When I tested this new set up the car accelerated identically to before (when it wore a factory ttS spoiler) up to 270kph then it slowed markedly to the point that it took 3 seconds more to go from 270kph to 300kph which translated into an extra 300m !!! It could possibly be the case that the CG wings slowed this car down over 250kph compared to a factory 0.29Cd car which RS may have been reffering to
    The graph for my 993tt experiment is below:



    That chart / your observation is extremely interesting Quite remarkable how changed aerodynamics impact acceleration. Also, it is quite remarkable that the effect is only visible at very high speeds

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    So do you think that the times CG released for the 645 and 600 kits (23 secs and 26 secs to 300 km/h respectively) are fantasy?




    It does look that way doesn't it ?
    These numbers were given word of mouth and it looks like they were "estimates" -remember not everyone takes these numbers as seriously as we do
    I am wondering how much the Cargraphic wings slowed that 624hp/1495kg car down since it was extremely fast to 250kph then seemed to be hit by drag (or heat soak - but seems unlikely given that it should have had the Secan coolers)

    I have some experience of this - I fitted an "alternative" front PU/spoiler to my 993tt which had much bigger openings. When I tested this new set up the car accelerated identically to before (when it wore a factory ttS spoiler) up to 270kph then it slowed markedly to the point that it took 3 seconds more to go from 270kph to 300kph which translated into an extra 300m !!! It could possibly be the case that the CG wings slowed this car down over 250kph compared to a factory 0.29Cd car which RS may have been reffering to
    The graph for my 993tt experiment is below:



    That chart / your observation is extremely interesting Quite remarkable how changed aerodynamics impact acceleration. Also, it is quite remarkable that the effect is only visible at very high speeds



    I think thatz perfectly explains the Carrera GT then. It was neck-and-neck with the Enzo at 270 km/h and then rapidly lost ground up to 300 km/h.

    Re: Performance Table

    Just to add some detail ('cos I know we like that ) There were a few other differences to car one run compared to the other in the above graph:

    Aerodynamics:
    Red run ttS front spoiler stock rear spoiler no engine undertray
    Green run hybrid 997tt look front spoiler, ttS rear spoiler engine undertray fitted
    Drive:
    red run 2WD
    green run 4WD
    Running Weight:
    red run ~1560kg
    green run ~ 1610kg
    Power:
    red run ~530hp (intercooler sensor plug was left off -don't ask )
    green run ~575hp

    So quite a few differences but I feel the extra weight and 4WD losses nullified the gain of ~45hp hence the acceleration was identical up to 270kph - The most important difference was the car in its 4WD "slow" spec was 100% more stable at 300kph which was what I was really trying to achieve.... I feel the it was definately the aerodynamic drag which held the car back over 270 and the superb stability was a result of this !

    The Enzo has "active" aerodynamics (moving gurneys/holes opening ?) which reduce downforce and drag after 300kph to enable it to hit its 350kph - the CGT just hits the aero wall !

    Re: Performance Table

    Yes, still a difference. Would be interesting to bolt on the stock spoilers to the CG TT and see how it did.

    Re: Performance Table

    Getting back to the 997tt - the Techart GT Street, the Green one was tested at the same runway we use and also managed a top speed of 193mph despite its 630hp (or according to the Techart boss "more like 680hp" - yeah right )
    A stock 997tt will do 190mph on the same runway. Now we know the GT Street is definately a lot faster in low end acceleration than stock 997tt but again I would suggest that its aerodynamics are ruining its top end acceleration - It was tested by SA with a Cd of 0.33 and CdA of 0.68 997tt Cd 0.29 CdA 0.58

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Getting back to the 997tt - the Techart GT Street, the Green one was tested at the same runway we use and also managed a top speed of 193mph despite its 630hp (or according to the Techart boss "more like 680hp" - yeah right )
    A stock 997tt will do 190mph on the same runway. Now we know the GT Street is definately a lot faster in low end acceleration than stock 997tt but again I would suggest that its aerodynamics are ruining its top end acceleration - It was tested by SA with a Cd of 0.33 and CdA of 0.68 997tt Cd 0.29 CdA 0.58



    What Cd values did the Cargraphic achieve?

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    Crash said:

    What Cd values did the Cargraphic achieve?


    They only seem to do the wind tunnel tests on a "Supertest" - understandably..... I am very suspicious of all non Porsche aero add ons.

    When the Techart GT Street was tested I asked one of the head TA engineering bods at the Essen show why the SA measured GTS aerodynamics were "poor" compared to the 997tt ( 9kg lift at the front and 5kg downforce at the back @200kph) he said that it was all adjustable - so I obviously asked why the attendant TA engineers at the test did not "adjust" it then ? He couldn't answer that one....
    The tested RT12 numbers were also not so good....

    In contrast the Porsche sorted 997GT2 has almost perfect aerodynamics out tof the box measured by SA at Cd 0.32 CdA 0.66 Front downforce 9kg rear 29kg @200kph and in the real world can achieve 344kph (measured by Flat six mag) -Porsche know what they are doing

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Getting back to the 997tt - the Techart GT Street, the Green one was tested at the same runway we use and also managed a top speed of 193mph despite its 630hp (or according to the Techart boss "more like 680hp" - yeah right )
    A stock 997tt will do 190mph on the same runway. Now we know the GT Street is definately a lot faster in low end acceleration than stock 997tt but again I would suggest that its aerodynamics are ruining its top end acceleration - It was tested by SA with a Cd of 0.33 and CdA of 0.68 997tt Cd 0.29 CdA 0.58



    Very interesting infos. One point: the 997 GT2 has a CdA of 0.66, right? Interesting that Porsche (in case of the GT2) did manage to retain excellent high-speed acceleration (33s 0-300 is not too bad) while generating significant downforce for optimal handling.

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:

    In contrast the Porsche sorted 997GT2 has almost perfect aerodynamics out tof the box measured by SA at Cd 0.32 CdA 0.66 Front downforce 9kg rear 29kg @200kph and in the real world can achieve 344kph (measured by Flat six mag) -Porsche know what they are doing



    You were too quick... Just read your above post.

    However, the question is: why is the GT2 that fast up to 300kph given its CdA of .66 (i.e. close to the GTStreet CdA)

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    However, the question is: why is the GT2 that fast up to 300kph given its CdA of .66 (i.e. close to the GTStreet CdA)



    Well with the lack of independant specific 0-300kph tests I looked at the SA Supertests where the cars were at the ring. Between the Golgenkopf and at the end of the staight where there measure the max speed at Dottinger Hohe the numbers were:
    GTS 138kph to 294kph
    GT2 140kph to 293kph
    So very similar acceleration -I would put it down to better aero for the GT2, 55kg less weight and less real power than quoted for the GTS - in these "race" conditions and without the benefit of expensive Secan coolers the tuned GTS engine was probably producing mid high 500s hp

    For rough reference a 530hp 993tt with stock body (CdA 0.656) runs 310-315kph at the runway we use which seems to equate to 0-300 low 30s

    Re: Performance Table

    Toby by my Porsche owners' manual and Technical spec booklet the 997tt Cd is 0.31. I think the 0.29 is for the narrower cars

    Re: Performance Table

    0.29 is as measured by Sport Auto in the Mercedes wind tunnel. I am pretty sure when Porsche announced the 997tt they also quoted 0.29 but later changed it to 0.31 for some reason ?

    Re: Performance Table

    Edit to the above - my mistake, Porsche have always quoted 0.31, it is only the SA measurement which contradicts this, so believe what you want I guess. The SA measurements are usually spot on with factory claims although the CGT also came out slippier than factory claims.

    Eclou
    I'm very glad you question this since I thought I had read it in Christophorus a couple of years ago and that copy had been "tidied" away somewhere which prompted me to search - low and behold Porsche keep some great archive Cristophorus editions (see link below)
    Whilst most of this publication is utter tosh it is fairly unique in that it still contains some great technical stuff seemingly direct from the Porsche engineers which makes it a fairly unique resource following the sad passing of Paul Frere.....
    http://www.porsche.com/filestore.aspx/de...iletype=default

    Re: Performance Table

    That's a nice find Toby! Thanks

    Re: Performance Table

    Updated - added a few more cars.

    Please REFRESH page 1 to see updates.

    Want to stick to Porsches but thought I'd put in a Veyron as the benchmark.

    Toby, please tell me if you have better numbers for your fantastic 993.

    Re: Performance Table

    It would be nice to have stock GT3 and GT2 also...

    Re: Performance Table

    I would if I could find the numbers!

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    Toby, please tell me if you have better numbers for your fantastic 993.



    The chart is a great idea however only really the magazine numbers should be taken as (reasonably) factual by readers IMO.

    The problem with the Driftbox/Performance box is it seems very bad at reading the height, giving spurious readings most of the time. Checkout my chart below, it is driving around the "circuit" in the bottom right hand corner, you can see at the same points on two laps the heights are different, only about 4 metres in this case but I have seen much worse.
    This means we obviously have to rely on RTers judgement of whether there "track" is flat which is fine but not definitive like the magazine numbers should be....

    I also think you should have a column with 2WD/4WD just to be clear and maybe a bit of work on the weights - we are quoting magazine weights which are usually DIN ie no occupants full of fluids then add 2 passengers for the runs so maybe their weights should be grossed up to running weights ie add 160kg to the magazine quoted weights - I would suggest contributors submit their best guess based on what they think their DIN weight is + the weight of occupant/s
    For the weights for eg the 997tts of Eclou and I am AAHMD I would guess have sunroofs and rear wipers - the 1585kg car has no sunroof or rear wiper and PCCB - sunroof and wipers add ~ 20kg ? (dunno, come round to mine and I will weigh them for you !)

    I would submit my best runs for my 993tt were in 2WD mode running weight 1510kg 100-200 in 6.6s, at Bruntingthorpe slightly uphill 100-300kph 26.8s 200-300kph 19.4s

    Hopefully going to the runway in a couple of weeks so some more (probably slower -4WD) data,,,,,

    Re: Performance Table

    I'm going to give mine another go this weekend as it's dry and I know I can do much better than the previous results.

    Love this thread. ...but I don't like being last.

    Re: Performance Table

    UPDATED: Added the GT3/RS/Cayman/Boxter

    Please refresh page 1 to see new chart.

    Re: Performance Table

    Had a quick go with the 0-60mph times. I got -

    0-60mph in 4.53 seconds and 0-100kph in 4.93 seconds. I'll try later for a full run.


    Re: Performance Table

    Oops, made a mistake. I've changed the graph above but I should have quoted 0-100kph of 4.73 seconds. Every bit counts.

    Re: Performance Table

    Hi Alex,

    Typo line 17? *998* GT3 RS.

    BTW, that GT3 Cargraphic 465 RSC 4.0 has impressive numbers! 100-200 time is faster than the Turbo. Does anyone happen to know what the mod is? 4 liter engine?

    Thanks for your time & effort in creating this very VERY nice table.

    Re: Performance Table

    Updated with everything mentioned. Refresh 1st page to see changes.

    Re: Performance Table

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Hi Alex,

    Typo line 17? *998* GT3 RS.

    BTW, that GT3 Cargraphic 465 RSC 4.0 has impressive numbers! 100-200 time is faster than the Turbo. Does anyone happen to know what the mod is? 4 liter engine?

    Thanks for your time & effort in creating this very VERY nice table.



    Compare the power/weight of the Stcok Turbo and the Cargraphic GT3 RS (4.0L engine) and you will see why it beats it!

     
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