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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Joost:

    When I visited Whoopsy a couple of years ago and we drove around in his MP4-12, most people seemed to thnk it was a Lamborghini... angry

    My neighbor with that 12C told(!) people that his car is a special edition and that it costs 450k EUR. I really tried hard to find out what kind of special edition this car would be but couldn't find anything. Smiley It seems that some people need to play Big Kahuna Smiley while others prefer to stay underdogs. To each his own I guess. 

    There are two questions I always hate regarding my car(s): How much did it cost and what do you do for a living. Can't get used to these questions but the second one, I always reply with "I'm a drug dealer". Smiley Smiley I love the look in the eyes of people when I say that. 
    Once I said I am working as a hired assassin Smiley when a guy in my hotel didn't stop bugging me about my job (he noticed the Porsche cap and started annoying me). This guy never talked to me again (thanks god).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    I always reply with "I'm a drug dealer". Smiley Smiley I love the look in the eyes of people when I say that. 
     

    That is also clever as most people will not ask any further but will leave you quickly and run for their lives Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Sounds like every other McLaren or turbo car IMO. They're never anything special.

    It's worth noting that no car sounds anything like it does on the outside when youre sitting inside. Most people say "oh, that sounds so sweet"... when it's driving by them. The sounds get very much muffled and attenuated in the cabin for obvious reasons.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    RC:
    I always reply with "I'm a drug dealer". Smiley Smiley I love the look in the eyes of people when I say that. 
     

    That is also clever as most people will not ask any further but will leave you quickly and run for their lives Smiley

    Actually, it seems to make me more interesting... Smiley Only that hired assassin crap seems to push people away but my wife told me to not do that anymore because she is afraid some idiot could actually believe that... Smiley

    I never asked someone I just met how much his car or watch costs or what he does for a living to be able to afford that (they do not ask me what I do for a living but what I do for a living to be able to afford that after they asked how much I paid). My wife is smarter: When someone asks her, she says "I don't have a clue, my husband paid for it...". Smiley Maybe I should try the "my wife paid for it" instead, how knows...maybe it works. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Sounds like every other McLaren or turbo car IMO. They're never anything special.

    It's worth noting that no car sounds anything like it does on the outside when youre sitting inside. Most people say "oh, that sounds so sweet"... when it's driving by them. The sounds get very much muffled and attenuated in the cabin for obvious reasons.

    The Huracan is quite nice in that domain, even the R8 (a bit more quiet than the Huracan though when the windows are closed) but Porsche uses on some cars that sound symposer which works quite nicely and only "opens" when you press a button. I guess other manufacturers use a similar system as well. That loudspeaker thing in the M3/M4 is moronic though. Smiley

    I like McLaren more and more (seriously) but mainly because they offer top notch performance for a somewhat reasonable price. Also I love the details on the new 720S, McLaren really knows what owners want. 

    Would I get one right now? Probably not because I am in love with the Huracan Performante but I cannot exclude that I won't fall for McLaren at some point, especially if they improve their dealership network and if Porsche gives up on offering a "960". I kind of got bored of the 911, sorry to say that. Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Watching the various 720S reviews is interesting as the reviewers do not always sing from the same hymn sheet.... Sutcliffe "you absolutely would never know it is turbocharged..." vs Dan Trent of PH "no question it is a turbo motor, has that whoosh about the power delivery...".   


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I haven't driven the 720S yet (would love to but I do not want to bother my local McLaren dealer when I clearly know that I wouldn't get one right now) but so far, I haven't encountered a single turbo charged car which completely lacks a turbo lag and/or comes even close to the spontaneous throttle response of my R8. This includes the 488 and the 991.2 Turbo S, also the latest 991.2 CS. I am pretty sure that McLaren hasn't re-invented the turbo charged engine, so there certainly is a lag but if it is much better than on the previous 650S or even 12C, this would already be a huge improvement. Let's be real here: The 720S is not your typical track car, so a little bit of turbo lag won't really matter.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Now that there are fewer and fewer NA engines to compare, people will start to compare between various turbo motors instead, as they have their differences.  The McLaren engine is one of the revvier ones, and this people agree on - at least it is not set up to deliver super diesel-like torque at 1100 rpm and encourage short shifting.  For a sports car, having an engine that encourages you to run it up towards redline seems in character.... just, when the car is this fast, you can only do this twice to exceed most speed limits.... angel


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    4trac:

    Now that there are fewer and fewer NA engines to compare, people will start to compare between various turbo motors instead, as they have their differences.  The McLaren engine is one of the revvier ones, and this people agree on - at least it is not set up to deliver super diesel-like torque at 1100 rpm and encourage short shifting.  For a sports car, having an engine that encourages you to run it up towards redline seems in character.... just, when the car is this fast, you can only do this twice to exceed most speed limits.... angel

    Interestimg point. I once talked to a Porsche developer about why the 911 Turbo engine isn't revving higher and with a surprised face he asked me: What for? I didn't ask further because for him this topic was clearly exhausted but I wonder if Porsche developers aren't a little bit stuck in their routine without taking risks? 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    I haven't driven the 720S yet (would love to but I do not want to bother my local McLaren dealer when I clearly know that I wouldn't get one right now) but so far, I haven't encountered a single turbo charged car which completely lacks a turbo lag and/or comes even close to the spontaneous throttle response of my R8. This includes the 488 and the 991.2 Turbo S, also the latest 991.2 CS. I am pretty sure that McLaren hasn't re-invented the turbo charged engine, so there certainly is a lag but if it is much better than on the previous 650S or even 12C, this would already be a huge improvement. Let's be real here: The 720S is not your typical track car, so a little bit of turbo lag won't really matter.

    That is true. The traditional turbo lag seems gone - because of the gear boxes used today. If you drive any of the turbos in fixed gear (like the 7th) it is impossible to not notice the traditional turbo characteristics. With PDK, however, the turbo lag seems gone. That is the trick used today.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    4trac:

    Now that there are fewer and fewer NA engines to compare, people will start to compare between various turbo motors instead, as they have their differences.  The McLaren engine is one of the revvier ones, and this people agree on - at least it is not set up to deliver super diesel-like torque at 1100 rpm and encourage short shifting.  For a sports car, having an engine that encourages you to run it up towards redline seems in character.... just, when the car is this fast, you can only do this twice to exceed most speed limits.... angel

    Interestimg point. I once talked to a Porsche developer about why the 911 Turbo engine isn't revving higher and with a surprised face he asked me: What for? I didn't ask further because for him this topic was clearly exhausted but I wonder if Porsche developers aren't a little bit stuck in their routine without taking risks? 

    Or, perhaps, that in Porsche's complex scheme of carefully thought out niches, high revving engines are the exclusive domain of the GT cars. And, I could imagine that their Turbo buyers do not want to wait for 7000 rpm for things to happen... they have indeed created different drivers, not just different 911s. 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I just received pricing for the launch cars with performance spec on the 720S.

    CAD$410k! Wow, that's 812 territory.

    And it would be an easy choice between the 2, Ferrari all the way.

     

     

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    That's cheap when you convert it to USD. Only $300K.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    If I had to choose between the 812 and the 720, I would take the Ferrari, no doubt about it. It looks less exotic and the n/a V12 engine should certainly be a treat.

    I'm afraid however that the 812 will be more expensive than the 720 in Germany. 720S base price is 247k (incl. 19% VAT), which is already a bargain for such a performance monster. Unfortunately I think that the 812 base price will be around 280k EUR. Unless Ferrari plans to offer the 812 for less money than the F12 (269k EUR).

    Interesting (and rewarding) times for sportscar lovers who don't want to spend over 500k for extreme performance. 😎


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Next to the 720S and the Performante in Geneva I didn't even consider the 812. It's a Ferrari for the older customers, not for those with insatiable hunger for performance from a mid-engined spaceship :) 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Herbaliser:

    Next to the 720S and the Performante in Geneva I didn't even consider the 812. It's a Ferrari for the older customers, not for those with insatiable hunger for performance from a mid-engined spaceship :) 

    I agree, the 812 does not appear of much interest to me in comparison to the 720s, GT2RS or 488 Speciale.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    If I had to choose between the 812 and the 720, I would take the Ferrari, no doubt about it. It looks less exotic and the n/a V12 engine should certainly be a treat.

    I'm afraid however that the 812 will be more expensive than the 720 in Germany. 720S base price is 247k (incl. 19% VAT), which is already a bargain for such a performance monster. Unfortunately I think that the 812 base price will be around 280k EUR. Unless Ferrari plans to offer the 812 for less money than the F12 (269k EUR).

    Interesting (and rewarding) times for sportscar lovers who don't want to spend over 500k for extreme performance. 😎

    Base price of the 812 in Germany is 282.934,40 €. As always with Ferrari, this price is highly academic. Smiley


    --

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    same for the Mac - in Geneva they had the configurators and you go quickly above 300k


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    BjoernB:

    same for the Mac - in Geneva they had the configurators and you go quickly above 300k

    True but at least you can configure a pretty "basic" car (720S) for under 260k. I guess the 812 won't cost you under 300k if you want some "basic" options.

    Still...a V12 n/a engine in a less "in your face" design vs. a very exotic design with a turbo charged engine? If money wouldn't really matter, I would definitely go for the Ferrari, sorry to say that.  For me however, 40k is a lot of money and since McLaren usually also offers better deals than Ferrari...tempting (just theoretically of course).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Herbaliser:

    Next to the 720S and the Performante in Geneva I didn't even consider the 812. It's a Ferrari for the older customers, not for those with insatiable hunger for performance from a mid-engined spaceship :) 

    I am quite sure that the 812 won't be much slower than the 720S and when have you been to the track lately? Both aren't your typical track cars, so... Smiley

    On the Autobahn, turbo charged engines rock, they offer endless power and a very pleasant boost with the illusion of excessive power. On country roads or tracks with lots of tight curves, n/a engines prevail in the fun domain.

    If I had the money, I would probably get a Huracan Performante for country roads/mountain roads/track fun and a 720S for the Autobahn (seriously). If someone isn't really into AWD cars (I love AWD cars...), the 812 could offer both worlds in one package. Labeling the 812 as a car for old people is kind of shortsighted in my opinion. I do not think the 812 is slow...neither on the Autobahn nor on the track.

    Regarding the 991 GT2 RS and the 488 Speciale: I doubt that these cars will beat 720S straight line performance but you never know. Ferrari surely has upped their (hp) game lately, something Porsche could seriously take a lesson from and even Porsche may have understood the sign of the times, upping their game with the GT2 RS. If not...well...this could go sideways. I do not think the GT2 RS would be a failure, even with 650 hp only but it surely won't create the demand of the GT3 RS or new GT3 if the straight line performance isn't there... 0-200 kph in under 8 seconds would be great but I rather think 8.5 seconds are more realistic. Unless Porsche really started to get p.ss.d at McLaren/Ferrari, finally starting to understand that they need to (at least) keep up and the n/a GT models won't cut it.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    Herbaliser:

    Next to the 720S and the Performante in Geneva I didn't even consider the 812. It's a Ferrari for the older customers, not for those with insatiable hunger for performance from a mid-engined spaceship :) 

    I am quite sure that the 812 won't be much slower than the 720S and when have you been to the track lately? Both aren't your typical track cars, so... Smiley

    On the Autobahn, turbo charged engines rock, they offer endless power and a very pleasant boost with the illusion of excessive power. On country roads or tracks with lots of tight curves, n/a engines prevail in the fun domain.

    If I had the money, I would probably get a Huracan Performante for country roads/mountain roads/track fun and a 720S for the Autobahn (seriously). If someone isn't really into AWD cars (I love AWD cars...), the 812 could offer both worlds in one package. Labeling the 812 as a car for old people is kind of shortsighted in my opinion. I do not think the 812 is slow...neither on the Autobahn nor on the track.

    Regarding the 991 GT2 RS and the 488 Speciale: I doubt that these cars will beat 720S straight line performance but you never know. Ferrari surely has upped their (hp) game lately, something Porsche could seriously take a lesson from and even Porsche may have understood the sign of the times, upping their game with the GT2 RS. If not...well...this could go sideways. I do not think the GT2 RS would be a failure, even with 650 hp only but it surely won't create the demand of the GT3 RS or new GT3 if the straight line performance isn't there... 0-200 kph in under 8 seconds would be great but I rather think 8.5 seconds are more realistic. Unless Porsche really started to get p.ss.d at McLaren/Ferrari, finally starting to understand that they need to (at least) keep up and the n/a GT models won't cut it.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     

    Just think of how these cars feel when you drive them... The differences in the engine is a rather small contributor to the overall impression, I think. The 812 is heavy, with a lot of mass at the front, large, less precise etc. The 720s (or a GT2RS) is light, precise, nimble. A totally different car Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    On country roads the 812 would never give you enough confidence with it's traction issues. It won't break, steer, change direction as precisely as a proper mid-engine supercar. That's what I mean by performance. After the 488 the Autobahn acceleration is a closed chapter for me. I finally reached the level where "it's enough". I am not so crazy to chase other 700hp car.

    The comfort levels of the 488 or the 720S are amazing. So why chose the 812 unless you have other priorities? Better investment, engine sound, softer ride... All that has nothing to do with performance.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I think you are confusing the 812 with the F12. Since I haven't driven both (812 or 720S), it is difficult to make my points.

    I assume(!) Ferrari has improved 812 chassis/steering and the very powerful V12 n/a engine is certainly a treat (it was in the F12, so why shouldn't it be in a more powerful and improved version in the 812?).

    Yes, the 720S may feel lighter and more nimble while driving it but it is the whole package which counts. I just cannot get warmed up to the idea of another turbo charged engine. For my driving purpose (weekend toy car, mostly country/mountain roads or rarely tracks/airfields), a turbo charged engine isn't really fun, especially without AWD. I know that McLaren offers excellent TC setups (something other manufacturers could learn from...) but a RWD bi-turbo charged car still has traction issues in certain driving situations and the increased power of the 720S won't help here. Also, the sound...you like it stealth but I prefer to hear the engine scream. 

    My favorite is still the Huracan Performante but that enormous wing puts me off a little bit (yes, seriously). 

    The 812 is one of the last n/a engines on the market in such a car and I think that 800 hp in a n/a V12 engine which revs up to 8500 rpm make up for the additional weight and the somewhat less exotic exterior of the 812.

    In the end, I think it really depends on personal preferences and of course financial considerations. While the 720S may be cheaper than the 812, in the end, resale value can be higher for the 812. Especially if McLaren decides to put more attractive models in a similar price/performance class on the market. Even worse: What happens if McLaren decides to offer a 620S or whatever, some sort of 570S successor with 650S performance for under 200k?

    I wouldn't rush into things right now...too many new models are showing up. Unless you have the financial freedom to not care about resale value or whatever.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    the Performate Cockpit and 720 are worlds apart - clearly 720 is the winner - as to the 812 I sat in it in Geneva - it's a Evolution to the F12 (to me a good priced F12 would be more tempting) BUT if you want the last crazy V12 NA Ferrari madness I fully understand anybody that would go this route ! The engine alone is probably worth buying the car despite the Corvette look in the back


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    btw : a TDF overtook me on German Highways this week-end - WHAT A SOUND...... - not that the GT3 is lacking.....but...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Herbaliser:

    On country roads the 812 would never give you enough confidence with it's traction issues. It won't break, steer, change direction as precisely as a proper mid-engine supercar. That's what I mean by performance. After the 488 the Autobahn acceleration is a closed chapter for me. I finally reached the level where "it's enough". I am not so crazy to chase other 700hp car.

    The comfort levels of the 488 or the 720S are amazing. So why chose the 812 unless you have other priorities? Better investment, engine sound, softer ride... All that has nothing to do with performance.

     

    For most customers and drivers, they WILL go faster on country roads in a 812 than a 720S no matter how much aster a 720S will be.

    A 812 is a classic front engine rear drive car, the handling characteristics is the simplest to master, even if it has traction issues and the rear steps out, it will be extremely easy to catch.

    720S, or any other mid engine cars for that matters, will catch a lot of drivers by surprise. The inherit willingness to rotate means they are much harder to push, and if they step out it will catch a lot of people out. Most will actually crashed out before finishing the road. 

    911s, modern ones that had the tail tamed, are also extremely forgiving and easy to drive fast. and the tail rotate so slowly that even if it steps out, there are plenty of time to catch it back.

    The interior of the 720S is just super nice, McLaren finally have a nice interior to be proud of. That's space age compared with the old looking 812 interior that's for sure.


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:
    Herbaliser:

    On country roads the 812 would never give you enough confidence with it's traction issues. It won't break, steer, change direction as precisely as a proper mid-engine supercar. That's what I mean by performance. After the 488 the Autobahn acceleration is a closed chapter for me. I finally reached the level where "it's enough". I am not so crazy to chase other 700hp car.

    The comfort levels of the 488 or the 720S are amazing. So why chose the 812 unless you have other priorities? Better investment, engine sound, softer ride... All that has nothing to do with performance.

     

    For most customers and drivers, they WILL go faster on country roads in a 812 than a 720S no matter how much aster a 720S will be.

    A 812 is a classic front engine rear drive car, the handling characteristics is the simplest to master, even if it has traction issues and the rear steps out, it will be extremely easy to catch.

    720S, or any other mid engine cars for that matters, will catch a lot of drivers by surprise. The inherit willingness to rotate means they are much harder to push, and if they step out it will catch a lot of people out. Most will actually crashed out before finishing the road. 

    911s, modern ones that had the tail tamed, are also extremely forgiving and easy to drive fast. and the tail rotate so slowly that even if it steps out, there are plenty of time to catch it back.

    The interior of the 720S is just super nice, McLaren finally have a nice interior to be proud of. That's space age compared with the old looking 812 interior that's for sure.

    That's a rather unconventional theory. The mid engine layout is the most balanced and neutral one, with the least rotational forces, as both the front and the rear are lighter. It has the most predictable behavior because there's no surprising build up of inertia in the front or the rear. The car pivots around the driver which is the most natural thing. 

    The mid engine layout is the best in every regard except space utilization. The 911 has a rather flowed architecture but it is a testemony of Porsche's engineering brilliance in the way they overcompensate it. We could only dream what would it be if they build a proper lightweight mid engine supercar. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    All these cars have cutting edge traction and stability control. If you lose it on the street, you deserve to have your license taken away IMO.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:
    Herbaliser:

    On country roads the 812 would never give you enough confidence with it's traction issues. It won't break, steer, change direction as precisely as a proper mid-engine supercar. That's what I mean by performance. After the 488 the Autobahn acceleration is a closed chapter for me. I finally reached the level where "it's enough". I am not so crazy to chase other 700hp car.

    The comfort levels of the 488 or the 720S are amazing. So why chose the 812 unless you have other priorities? Better investment, engine sound, softer ride... All that has nothing to do with performance.

     

    For most customers and drivers, they WILL go faster on country roads in a 812 than a 720S no matter how much aster a 720S will be.

    A 812 is a classic front engine rear drive car, the handling characteristics is the simplest to master, even if it has traction issues and the rear steps out, it will be extremely easy to catch.

    720S, or any other mid engine cars for that matters, will catch a lot of drivers by surprise. The inherit willingness to rotate means they are much harder to push, and if they step out it will catch a lot of people out. Most will actually crashed out before finishing the road. 

    911s, modern ones that had the tail tamed, are also extremely forgiving and easy to drive fast. and the tail rotate so slowly that even if it steps out, there are plenty of time to catch it back.

    The interior of the 720S is just super nice, McLaren finally have a nice interior to be proud of. That's space age compared with the old looking 812 interior that's for sure.

    I am not fully convinced - just look at the F12 TdF, for example... 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    The tdf is a rare example of a car manufacturer making a car "unstable" by purpose.  Do you really think Ferrari couldn't take care of the traction and stability issues? Of course they could but they built the tdf as some sort of halo fun product. The instability is supposed to be part of the fun of the car, even if I do not agree with this concept.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


     
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