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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    They explain why lidar is not required. They built custom parallel chips and computers with optimized to recognize images.  Assuming that people won’t care about autonomy is just a bit silly in this day and age. Why not argue people can walk so why care about running much less driving. It don’t think we will ever regress in our hunger for automation and avoid tasks. It is also a safety issue.  I predict again that in our lifetime human drivers will not be allowed. 

     

    Of course Smiley Do you think for one second that Elon is going to admit publicly that he is wrong?Smiley

     


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    They explain why lidar is not required. They built custom parallel chips and computers with optimized to recognize images.  Assuming that people won’t care about autonomy is just a bit silly in this day and age. Why not argue people can walk so why care about running much less driving. It don’t think we will ever regress in our hunger for automation and avoid tasks. It is also a safety issue.  I predict again that in our lifetime human drivers will not be allowed. 

     

    Of course Smiley Do you think for one second that Elon is going to admit publicly that he is wrong?Smiley

     

    Interestingly, the leader in road vehicle autonomy is TuSimple which has received investment capital from UPS, USPS, and FedEx does not use Lidar either.  TuSimple uses, instead high power and long range cameras.  However, OTR trucking typically has far fewer obstacles and points of interest than the typical automobile driven in a more urban environment.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/volkswagen-scientists-use-quantum-computing-to-help-solve-traffic-chaos/

    Who needs dumb autopilot that still get one stuck in traffic when a smart routing system let you drive around them?

    I guess VAG just leapfrogged everyone else in automotive computing now. 


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Whoopsy:

    https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/volkswagen-scientists-use-quantum-computing-to-help-solve-traffic-chaos/

    Who needs dumb autopilot that still get one stuck in traffic when a smart routing system let you drive around them?

    I guess VAG just leapfrogged everyone else in automotive computing now. 

    What on earth does quantum computing resolving where traffic is congested have to do with leapfrogging autonomous driving tech or any other type of automotive computing?  That’s a stretch I need help understanding?  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Quantum computing is orders of magnitude faster than traditional computing, Tesla was taunting they had the fastest automotive computing before, well that title is no more.

    And with quantum computing resolving traffic congestion avoidance, there is no need for autonomous driving, that technology was invented just so people aren't driving and stuck in traffic in the first place. 

    But I mean, Tesla could play catch up and use quantum computer in their cars to boost their autonomous driving ability. 


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Tesla’s Autopilot prevented yet another accident.  Oh wait, perhaps the dog would have been the safer driver of the Model 3.

    Tesla on Autopilot collided Saturday morning with a state police cruiser

    Peter Marteka

    Hartford Courant

    Dec 07, 2019 | 11:05 AM 

    A state police cruiser was rear-ended by a Tesla on auto-pilot early Saturday morning. (Connecticut State Police)

    A state police cruiser was rear-ended by a Tesla on auto-pilot early Saturday morning. (Connecticut State Police) 

    A Tesla in Autopilot mode collided with a state police cruiser early Saturday morning as the trooper was assisting a disabled motor vehicle in the center lane of Interstate 95.

    According to police, a pair of troopers responded to a disabled vehicle in the left center lane of northbound I-95 near Exit 15 in Norwalk. Police said both troopers were behind the disabled vehicle with their emergency lights activated and a flare pattern behind the cruisers. While troopers awaited a tow truck, a 2018 Tesla Model 3 struck the rear of one cruiser and then continued north striking the disabled vehicle.

    Police said the operator of the Tesla continued to slowly travel northbound before being stopped several hundred feet away by the second trooper on scene. Police said the operator of the Tesla stated that he had his vehicle on Autopilot and explained that he was checking on his dog in the back seat prior to hitting the vehicles.

    The front end of a Tesla involved in a collision with a state police cruiser. (Connecticut State Police)

    The front end of a Tesla involved in a collision with a state police cruiser. (Connecticut State Police) 

    Tara Andringa, executive director of Partners for Automated Vehicle Education, said most vehicles available for sale today offer driver assistance features, but even the “most advanced of these aids, the driver must always monitor and be prepared to control the vehicle.” PAVE is a coalition of industry leaders, academic and public-sector institutions with the goal of raising understanding and awareness of the technology.

    She said it is “damaging to public discussion” about advanced vehicle technologies to refer to vehicles now available for sale to the public using terms such as automated, self-driving, autonomous, on autopilot or driverless.

    “It is incorrect to refer to current vehicles with driver assist technologies as ‘self-driving’ or ‘autonomous’... because creating an inaccurate impression of vehicle capabilities can put drivers and other road users at risk,” she said.


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    CGX car nut:

    She said it is “damaging to public discussion” about advanced vehicle technologies to refer to vehicles now available for sale to the public using terms such as automated, self-driving, autonomous, on autopilot or driverless.

    “It is incorrect to refer to current vehicles with driver assist technologies as ‘self-driving’ or ‘autonomous’... because creating an inaccurate impression of vehicle capabilities can put drivers and other road users at risk,” she said.

    AFAIK of all the manufacturers it is only Tesla that is irresponsible enough to be doing this, all for their own marketing purposes. Heck, they will even sell you a vaporware fully autonomous driving system future update that is "supposed" to be out this coming year... Musk dixit.

    On top of it they make it so it is really easy for the driver to be able use is as if it is fully autonomous and be able to drive while asleep, fool the system to think they have their hand on the wheel and do something else, etc when it is easy enough to design it so that the driver has to be necessarily paying attention to the road and the car while on auto mode. But I guess that would hurt sales and the image of autonomous driving they are pedaling, when it is just a good level 2 driver assistance system.

    That is not how things should be done...


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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    This is like blaming the maker for when people crash using cruise control. Tesla always maintains at this time to pay attention and makes clear it is not fully autonomous. That said it is the best at helping and increasing safety. Stupid people will continue to do stupid things. Thinking this is somehow proof that Tesla’s are dangerous or that self driving is not a thing is just silly. Sometimes you guys are like primitive people seeing fire for the first time and focused on the harm it does rather than the endless positive possibilities. Don’t be so silly. How many non Tesla’s had similar accidents during the same time?  The statistics are outstandingly in favor of the Tesla and the assistance it provides.  
     

    But I get that these articles feed the confirmation bias. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Whoopsy:

    Quantum computing is orders of magnitude faster than traditional computing, Tesla was taunting they had the fastest automotive computing before, well that title is no more.

    And with quantum computing resolving traffic congestion avoidance, there is no need for autonomous driving, that technology was invented just so people aren't driving and stuck in traffic in the first place. 

    But I mean, Tesla could play catch up and use quantum computer in their cars to boost their autonomous driving ability. 

    I get quantum computing. I just don’t get how knowing about congestion makes my drive autonomous?  Why would easing congestion mean cars can drive themselves?  One gives you information about traffic the other lets you enjoy the ride while doing nothing. Of course the two would work well together. An autonomous system may also be better are feeding data to the congestion system so that would help.  
    It just means you get there a little quicker. I never see any traffic jams to work. Ever. This would not help me at all. 
    Do take a peek at the tech demo of the hardware they use, it is informative. It may help the discussion so we don’t confuse traffic congestion with self driving. 
    Given the state of quantum computing I doubt that they would be economically effective in cars. When VW puts one in a car let me know. Tesla goes so far as to take the energy consumption and heat from the computers into account. They optimize the software and hardware for this. They have all the hardware and processor speed for the task of self driving right now. I would bet their AI would be the first to centrally use quantum computing to teach more self driving situations to the collective but in a car or each car would be massive overkill given the speed of their current processors for the job. 
    So when when VW installs the first quantum computer to perfect self driving let me know. Until then it is just a central congestion tracker.  It is not being used by all cars along the way to adapt traffic patterns or anything like that. Sounds like fancy navigation.only 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    There is no need to have local quantum computer in cars when cars are connected. A cloud service could feed back the proper route.

    Now when a driver don't have to get stuck in traffic, that makes driving more enjoyable and make autonomous cars a moot point. It's sole purpose is for people to avoid driving in traffic. No one enjoys driving in traffic. Remember where Elon lives, and how bad traffic is there, it is a solution for him to not drive in traffic, he is still using the same road but the car is driving, not him.

    Right now even Tesla's autopilot is mostly using Google maps for navigation, and for computing purposes, that, and others all literally pick the same route, packing more and more cars into the same road and get every stuck in the same traffic jam. 

     


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    This is like blaming the maker for when people crash using cruise control. Tesla always maintains at this time to pay attention and makes clear it is not fully autonomous. That said it is the best at helping and increasing safety. Stupid people will continue to do stupid things. Thinking this is somehow proof that Tesla’s are dangerous or that self driving is not a thing is just silly. Sometimes you guys are like primitive people seeing fire for the first time and focused on the harm it does rather than the endless positive possibilities. Don’t be so silly. How many non Tesla’s had similar accidents during the same time?  The statistics are outstandingly in favor of the Tesla and the assistance it provides.  
     

    But I get that these articles feed the confirmation bias. 

     

    Cruise control don't give drivers a false sense of security. They know they still have to hold the wheel and brake themselves.

    The current adaptive cruise control can make a car go to a complete stop following another, that's a good step.

    Tesla just saying something won't make the drivers pay more attention, it's because they called their version of cruise control as autopilot, which implies the car will drive themselves. No amount of explaining will make their owners think otherwise, they are that stupid at times.

    The issue is very simple to solve, have the car detect if the driver is holding the steering wheel at all times and eye sensors checking if the drivers' eyes are looking ahead. If the drivers take their hands off the wheel for more than a second, disengage. If the driver is not looking ahead for more than 1 second, disengage. 

    The eye tracking technology is already here, quite a few cars are using it. And a simple pressure sensor on the wheel is easy to do.

     


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Speaking of autonomous driving: I tried the steering assist on my GLC 63S AMG a couple of times, it basically uses Distronic Plus to keep the distance to the traffic ahead, it adjusts the speed, it breaks, steers(!) and even changes lanes by itself when I activate the turning signal. 

    Just yesterday, the system malfunctioned. I was closing in to a truck ahead of me but the system kept going and didn't brake. I had to intervene, otherwise the car would have crashed into the truck. Weird, this wasn't some small car ahead of me but a huge truck. yes

    I was impressed with the system, including my wife and my kids but after this "incident", I certainly won't trust it, not even a bit.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Whoopsy:

    The issue is very simple to solve, have the car detect if the driver is holding the steering wheel at all times and eye sensors checking if the drivers' eyes are looking ahead. If the drivers take their hands off the wheel for more than a second, disengage. If the driver is not looking ahead for more than 1 second, disengage. 

    The eye tracking technology is already here, quite a few cars are using it. And a simple pressure sensor on the wheel is easy to do.

     

    It is THAT simple to do, but they are not doing it while calling their system "autopilot" on the verge of fully autonomous. It may be the stupid drivers that are causing the danger by misusing the system, but it is also Tesla's responsibility by knowingly and voluntarily omitting to place the necessary already available and easy measures to avoid such misuse.

    But it is even worse than that, the Model 3 already has the hardware in it, it has a driver facing camera, but they choose not to activate it yet.


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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Spend some time in the model3 prior to commenting on how it works.  That would be a big help.   Comparisons to other makes and how they work is no of use.  Tesla does quite a bit to check you are paying attention. If all you do is touch the wheel now and then it will turn off auto steer until the next drive if it thinks you are not paying attention. Lot of stuff like that. I do not believe the model 3 has a drive facing camera.  The manufacturer can not protect against stupid people.  But they can give the rest of us all the tool possible to protect us and make the drive safer. Used in this context nothing beats the safety of a tesla if you pay attention like in any other car. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Normally I just ignore your posts but this is just too funny

    Leawood911:

    Spend some time in the model3 prior to commenting on how it works.  That would be a big help.  

     I do not believe the model 3 has a drive facing camera. 

    Apparently it hasn't helped you much:

    https://electrek.co/2017/08/01/tesla-model-3-driver-facing-camera-autopilot-tesla-network/

     

    Tesla does quite a bit to check you are paying attention. If all you do is touch the wheel now and then it will turn off auto steer until the next drive if it thinks you are not paying attention

    We all know the system disengages autopilot if it detects the driver is not applying some torque to the wheel from time to time but the system is setup so that it is very easily fooled and useless, as we can see from all the people running around asleep in traffic or crashing while watching a movie on a laptop, yet the phone I'm typing this on is keeping the screen on even if the screen timeout goes out because it can detect my eyes looking at the screen with the front facing camera. It's that simple.

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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WONuaO9KzxQ

     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Carlos from Spain:

    Normally I just ignore your posts but this is just too funny

    Leawood911:

    Spend some time in the model3 prior to commenting on how it works.  That would be a big help.  

     I do not believe the model 3 has a drive facing camera. 

    Apparently it hasn't helped you much:

    https://electrek.co/2017/08/01/tesla-model-3-driver-facing-camera-autopilot-tesla-network/

     

    Tesla does quite a bit to check you are paying attention. If all you do is touch the wheel now and then it will turn off auto steer until the next drive if it thinks you are not paying attention

    We all know the system disengages autopilot if it detects the driver is not applying some torque to the wheel from time to time but the system is setup so that it is very easily fooled and useless, as we can see from all the people running around asleep in traffic or crashing while watching a movie on a laptop, yet the phone I'm typing this on is keeping the screen on even if the screen timeout goes out because it can detect my eyes looking at the screen with the front facing camera. It's that simple.

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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

    Again. Spend some time driving the car. I noted that I did not think it had a driver facing camera. It is not one the owner uses. Also if all you do is touch the wheel when it tells you it will eventually not even accept that. This is what I meant by many things they watch for. My posts are not meant to be silly and you can ignore them if you want but like I said drive one for a few days so you get a better understanding of what you are talking about. 
    The point itself it that it is currently a drive aid mostly due to regulatory restrictions. In the end you can not deny it is the future. Saying it is not perfect is obvious to all of us. All cars have brakes yet you also understand that the brakes need to be used properly. You would not avoid cars that have brakes because someone did not use his in time ???  So are you arguing there should be no advances in autonomy or that there is a specific better way to do this ?  We are talking as much about training people as we are cars.  You may need extra people training. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    But what is autonomy driving for in the first place?

    It's for people to avoid driving in traffic and let the car drive itself in traffic.

    I really don't see any other uses for autonomous driving. 

    A pointless gimmick. 

     


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    Again. Spend some time driving the car. I noted that I did not think it had a driver facing camera. It is not one the owner uses. 

    Priceless. And yet there is a front facing camera like I said, and was designed precisely to determine driver engagement, but they don't activate it, like I said in the first post.

    And didn't need to spend my time driving a Model3 to know that, life is too short to waste, but before you tell others to do their research, make sure you have done yours and have fully read the intial post... "that would be a big help"...


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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Carlos from Spain:
    Leawood911:

    Again. Spend some time driving the car. I noted that I did not think it had a driver facing camera. It is not one the owner uses. 

    Priceless. And yet there is a front facing camera like I said, and was designed precisely to determine driver engagement, but they don't activate it, like I said in the first post.

    And didn't need to spend my time driving a Model3 to know that, life is too short to waste, but before you tell others to do their research, make sure you have done yours and have fully read the intial post... "that would be a big help"...


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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     

    Priceless is right. I believe that while other makes have used cameras to see if the driver is awake rather than to drive the car Tesla is using them to drive and watch other drivers.  Which makes more sense?  I don’t think looking at the drivers eyes was top of the list for Tesla’s use of computing relative to what is going on around them.  You may think it is cool that others can do this but what do they do next if the person falls asleep?  Wake them up or what?  Should I look for articles where people have assumed this system would keep them awake but then they crashed anyway so it’s the makers fault?  Divorcing yourself for reality is good fun to make a point but not impressive when the brain cells are not asleep. 
     

    I qualified my statement and as it turns out they don’t use it. I’m pretty certain that if you don’t even think it is worth driving it to verify your opinion vs mine who has driven it our xchange is worthless. It is like I’m trying to describe a color to someone who refuses to open his eyes and rather prefers to describe colors he has heard of but never seen as ugly. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Whoopsy:

    But what is autonomy driving for in the first place?

    It's for people to avoid driving in traffic and let the car drive itself in traffic.

    I really don't see any other uses for autonomous driving. 

    A pointless gimmick. 

     

    You lost me. Is the remote control for your tv just to show you the schedule of shows and then you get up to change to that channel?  
    Autonomous driving is about not needing to drive at all. It is not about route planning.  Are you just being silly by claiming you don’t know the difference between route panning and driving?  In your case it is a pointless gimmick then. I agree.  Wow


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:
    Whoopsy:

    But what is autonomy driving for in the first place?

    It's for people to avoid driving in traffic and let the car drive itself in traffic.

    I really don't see any other uses for autonomous driving. 

    A pointless gimmick. 

     

    You lost me. Is the remote control for your tv just to show you the schedule of shows and then you get up to change to that channel?  
    Autonomous driving is about not needing to drive at all. It is not about route planning.  Are you just being silly by claiming you don’t know the difference between route panning and driving?  In your case it is a pointless gimmick then. I agree.  Wow

     

    By definition you need a route to drive don't you? Smiley

    Autonomous driving means taking the driver out of the equation for driving, so the car pick the route instead of the driver, yes?

    So smart routing would be a great asset to autonomous driving then? Without smart routing, literally the autopilot program is just going to follow instructions from like Google Maps. 

    Take a step back to see the bigger picture, don't just focus on words to argue for argument sake.

    As for the TV remote comparison, human driving is human using their fingers to press buttons to change channels, autonomous driving is like the computer pick a channel for you to watch, you don't get to choose. 

     

     

     


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Porsche Taycan Turbo S driven by The Smoking Tire... 16F9E3CF-33AC-4CB8-8EA3-F2F280D821DC.gif

    Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WONuaO9KzxQ

    Smiley


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Taycan 4S receives a rare five star rating from Autocar.   https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/porsche/taycan/first-drives/porsche-taycan-4s-2020-review

    The conclusion, much like the one made by Matt Farrah, is the Taycan is a driver’s car, not one to be driven in.  That’s a substantial difference between the Porsche EV and its assumed competitor.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    CGX car nut:

    Taycan 4S receives a rare five star rating from Autocar.   https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/porsche/taycan/first-drives/porsche-taycan-4s-2020-review

    The conclusion, much like the one made by Matt Farrah, is the Taycan is a driver’s car, not one to be driven in.  That’s a substantial difference between the Porsche EV and its assumed competitor.  

    Are you buying one?


    --

    Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    nberry:
    CGX car nut:

    Taycan 4S receives a rare five star rating from Autocar.   https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/porsche/taycan/first-drives/porsche-taycan-4s-2020-review

    The conclusion, much like the one made by Matt Farrah, is the Taycan is a driver’s car, not one to be driven in.  That’s a substantial difference between the Porsche EV and its assumed competitor.  

    Are you buying one?

    What one purchases or doesn’t purchase is not any of your concern.  What you purchase or don’t purchase is not of my concern either.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    The EPA rating for the Porsche Taycan Turbo is 201 miles of range.  Appears that Porsche is conservatively rating the Taycan just like Audi did with the e-tron.  For most purchasers of the Porsche, this is almost irrelevant since the car will typically be used for the daily commute.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Another words, you're not. 


    --BTW, the Taycan Turbo S is a very expensive car for only city commute. Heaven help you if you want to drive outside the city.Smiley

    https://jalopnik.com/the-porsche-taycan-turbos-epa-range-of-201-miles-is-so-1840366884

    Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.

     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    nberry:

    Another words, you're not. 


    --BTW, the Taycan Turbo S is a very expensive car for only city commute. Heaven help you if you want to drive outside the city.Smiley

    https://jalopnik.com/the-porsche-taycan-turbos-epa-range-of-201-miles-is-so-1840366884

    Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.

     

    Again, it irrelevant if one is getting a Taycan or not, to post an Autocar review of the EV.  Porsche's production volume for the Taycan is stated at 40,000 units annuals.  That's a low level of production for global consumption and, in high likelihood, each and everyone of those cars will find a how, regardless of its ultimate range.  In the past, EV acolytes proclaimed that overnight charging at home, alleviated range anxiety.  Now those same individuals describe any EV having a range less than a Tesla as inefficient and undesirable.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    I just read that Porsche has 10,000 confirmed orders for the Taycan S. That's not bad considering its the beginning of the EV cycle for Porsche and the cost of the car.

    I suspect the smaller Taycan will get more play.


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    Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.

     


     
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