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    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    SV, the Ferrari GTB will be a loser at the track.

    Its simply too heavy, as has been the case with all modern front engine Ferraris for competition work. Its just a fast road car with no real future in competition.

    Sadly, it looks to much like a Corvette for its own good, right down to its hoodscoop and side vents.

    Ferrari needs to do a retro, but light weight Daytona design. They own that shape and look.


    They shouldnt have used the Enzo engine in a shape with design cues that another company is identified with, thats the real blasphemy.

    Does Armani now copy JC Penny suits also?



    Whoa Jimbo,

    Lets not write the obituary for the 599 just yet. If the 599 is too heavy then your beloved Murcielago is DOA. The 599 is not like any front engine the company has ever built.


    As for competition, I suppose they better scrap any plans for a GTC then.

    With respect to styling, you ought to know the hood scoop on the Zo6 was lifted from the 550 maranello, the headlights from the f360 etc, etc. Now, who's copying whom here? Check the facts with GM design department.

    To my knowledge no one has ever paid $5k for JC Penny suit.
    Will GM ever make a profit of the Zo6?

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    RC, I trust you, I know the Turbos automatic is going to be good


    SV, Heres the shovel. I cant name a winning Lambo either! And Ferrari cant point to any real front engine road car champions since the early 60's either.

    Your "Ferrari" design "facts" Ignore the Toyota Supra. Shame on you!

    I doubt if a Italian automotive Jenny Craig diet center can fix the new GTB.But its designers obviously spent way too much time in Detroit, so maybe there will be a glimmer of hope after all.

    Make a profit on the Corvette? Dont you know that GMs core business is health care and retirement benefits!


    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    Torque wins races, HP sells cars!



    I've seen this quote many times, and I always wonder about it. An F1 car, for example, has very high horsepower and, by comparison, fairly anemic torque. How does this fact fit with the above quote? Any automotive engineers want to explain it for me?

    Gary

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Gary F1 cars dont weigh very much and they also rev way higher than a street car. Thats basically why.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, I trust you, I know the Turbos automatic is going to be good




    Porsche achieved a pretty spectacular and impressive setup with the new technology. They aren't stupid, they knew that people wouldn't understand why Tip is faster than manual. Everything has a reason...just wait and see the results and the explenation.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, I trust you, I know the Turbos automatic is going to be good




    Porsche achieved a pretty spectacular and impressive setup with the new technology. They aren't stupid, they knew that people wouldn't understand why Tip is faster than manual. Everything has a reason...just wait and see the results and the explenation.



    If its just a performance "shift kit" thats been revalved to pre load and lock the torque converter up (like a Lynco auto trans on a WW2 Sherman tank), interface better with the Turbo (like on a MAN diesel bus), the awd traction sensors (like on a newer German armored 8X8 carrier)and the ECU (they all do that these days), you will owe me many many beers!


    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Good to know that it is faster (acceleration and top speed) than the 997TT



    Let me see:

    997 TT Tiptronic 0-100 kph: 3.7 sec
    Corvette Z06 0-100 kph: 4.0 sec

    Z06 is FASTER???

    997 TT Tiptronic 0-160 kph: 7.8 sec
    Corvette Z06 0-160 kph: 7.9 sec

    Z06 is FASTER???

    997 TT Tiptronic 0-200 kph: 12.2 sec
    Corvette Z06 0-200 kph: 11.9 sec

    Z06 is faster indeed.

    BUT:
    1. the Z06 AMG performance data is REAL data, no factory claims.
    2. the 997 TT performance data is a factory claim. It can be better, it can be worse. And: all data is WITHOUT the overboost which is rumored to improve acceleration 0-200 kph time by aprox. 0.3 sec, meaning 11.9 instead of 12.2 sec, bringing it at par with the Z06.

    AND furthermore, you forget something: to achieve the AMS test data, you have to be a PERFECT clutch/shift operator.
    To achieve the 997 Turbo Tiptronic performance, you just have to have some force in your throttle foot.

    But I agree, the Z06 is a bang for the buck, a real bargain. Performance is very good, brakes are very good.
    But...again a "but", you hopefully read the whole article, indicating that the Z06 isn't easy to drive with the sport setup and even less forgiving if you're turning off the ESP/TC stuff. While in a 997 Turbo...electronically controlled AWD...

    As much as the Z06 impresses, the 997 Turbo is still more interesting for me personally.
    And I already want to throw in a bet: Nuerburgring Nordschleife, Z06 at least 5 seconds slowlier than the 997 Turbo. Is anybody in? And yes, I wouldn't risk such a bet without something on my mind.

    But again: if I'd live in the US, I would probably always choose the Z06 over the 997 Carrera. And I would DEFINETELY choose the Z06 over the Cayman S.



    Where you got those figures from is beyond me. I can show you 3 publications that hve the Z06 hitting 0-60 in 3.4 seconds, and at least a half dozen more that show 0-60 in 3.6 to 3.8. And as far as your bet on the ring goes, if they test a stock 997TT with stock tires against a stock Z06, I will bet you the house, the farm or anything else that the Z will smoke the TT. Remember, I own a Z06 and also drive my buddys 2005 996TT 6 speed quite often. The Z just smokes the TT in every competition. And remember this: the new Z06 is based almost completely on the C6R which is destroying all competition on the track its first year out of the box!!! Still want to bet?????

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Ronnie, bring a C6 Z06 over to Germany. Im sure you will find some takers for your Ring bet. How many laps you wanna do? Mind if its 27 degrees F outside for the shoot out? Got any special winter runflats that wont turn into Flintstone rubber when its below freezing? Guess when they did the AMS test? Could it have been during WINTER? No doubt in the summertime the Vette would get better hook up.This will shock you, but the 997TTS AWD system might actually make it quicker than the Z06 AFTER 140mph, even though it has less hp and more weight. So chill dude!


    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Sorry, there is truth to the old adage, "You get what you pay for."
    Bang for the buck, the ZO6 wins every time. I obviously live in the states and I have strongly considered one, however, have you seen a chevy up close. I don't want to insult a corvette owner, the interior is CHEAP, the paint is CHEAP; orange peel, etc..., and the lasting quality is suspect. A few hundredths of a second here or there does not a good world class sport car make.
    I may lust after the speed of the vette, but it falls short of the 997tt almost everywhere else. And who knows the tt's speed in the real world - manual included - may surprise everyone.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Devo, you overstate the negatives. The Vette isnt as bad as you wish to believe. Ive seen plenty of orange peel paint and tacky VW bottom drawer switch gear on Porsches also.

    Corvettes are reliable and really not that bad for a 45K sportscar that has another 25K in special engine, brakes, wheels, chassis and other systems.

    Is it as refined as 997? No. Is it quicker, faster? Yes.

    Get both if you can, and for the price of one 997TT you could, at least in the US anyway.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    I won't deny that I have considered keeping my 997S, not trading for the turbo and -like you stated, buy the ZO6. I just can't seem to pull the trigger when I look at the car up close. I have only seen the C6 not the ZO6 and am assuming that the Z has the same flaws, albiet possibly overstated ones. I know what great attributes it has.
    I've only driven the C5. It was fast, but my M-3 was more fun to drive.
    I would imagine that the resale would be better, though, after the euphoria of the newly released models wears off.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    I do realize that if money was not a concern, then my choice would be easy; 997tt, even if it is slower.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Gary F1 cars dont weigh very much and they also rev way higher than a street car. Thats basically why.



    I'm still not seeing it. Why would one of the engine designers not go for higher torque at the expense of hp, which is a common engineering tradeoff. If torque wins races, that should be true with 1300 lb cars as well as 3000 lb cars.

    Gary

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    Gary(SF) said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Gary F1 cars dont weigh very much and they also rev way higher than a street car. Thats basically why.



    I'm still not seeing it. Why would one of the engine designers not go for higher torque at the expense of hp, which is a common engineering tradeoff. If torque wins races, that should be true with 1300 lb cars as well as 3000 lb cars.

    Gary


    HP wins races, especially with a high redline. This allows low and close gearing. Gearing acts as a torque multiplier, so a well geared high-hp motor can put plenty of torque to the road. A high torque low-rev motor isn't going to win any races except for Monster Trucks...

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Devo - I too would never have even considered the Z06 having only seen the C6. However, I just picked up a new Z06 and I love it. You really cannot compare the Z06 to the C6. It looks completely different. Wider, lower, different aerodynamics everywhere on the car. As for the paint, mine is flawless. Just as good as any BMW or Mercedes that I have owned. Also, the interior, although note on par with the 997 is very to the point and nicely appointed. Do yourself a favor before you write off the Z06, go check one out, its a beauty.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    ocnatv said:
    Devo - I too would never have even considered the Z06 having only seen the C6. However, I just picked up a new Z06 and I love it. You really cannot compare the Z06 to the C6. It looks completely different. Wider, lower, different aerodynamics everywhere on the car. As for the paint, mine is flawless. Just as good as any BMW or Mercedes that I have owned. Also, the interior, although note on par with the 997 is very to the point and nicely appointed. Do yourself a favor before you write off the Z06, go check one out, its a beauty.



    Guys, I might add that one of the specific comments on the positive side of the AMS test was that the z06 had a 'decent finish' which has to be interpreted as a compliment. So the finish is not fantastic, but not shabby at all either , according to them...

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Good to know that it is faster (acceleration and top speed) than the 997TT



    Let me see:

    997 TT Tiptronic 0-100 kph: 3.7 sec
    Corvette Z06 0-100 kph: 4.0 sec

    Z06 is FASTER???

    997 TT Tiptronic 0-160 kph: 7.8 sec
    Corvette Z06 0-160 kph: 7.9 sec

    Z06 is FASTER???

    997 TT Tiptronic 0-200 kph: 12.2 sec
    Corvette Z06 0-200 kph: 11.9 sec

    Z06 is faster indeed.

    BUT:
    1. the Z06 AMG performance data is REAL data, no factory claims.
    2. the 997 TT performance data is a factory claim. It can be better, it can be worse. And: all data is WITHOUT the overboost which is rumored to improve acceleration 0-200 kph time by aprox. 0.3 sec, meaning 11.9 instead of 12.2 sec, bringing it at par with the Z06.

    AND furthermore, you forget something: to achieve the AMS test data, you have to be a PERFECT clutch/shift operator.
    To achieve the 997 Turbo Tiptronic performance, you just have to have some force in your throttle foot.

    But I agree, the Z06 is a bang for the buck, a real bargain. Performance is very good, brakes are very good.
    But...again a "but", you hopefully read the whole article, indicating that the Z06 isn't easy to drive with the sport setup and even less forgiving if you're turning off the ESP/TC stuff. While in a 997 Turbo...electronically controlled AWD...

    As much as the Z06 impresses, the 997 Turbo is still more interesting for me personally.
    And I already want to throw in a bet: Nuerburgring Nordschleife, Z06 at least 5 seconds slowlier than the 997 Turbo. Is anybody in? And yes, I wouldn't risk such a bet without something on my mind.

    But again: if I'd live in the US, I would probably always choose the Z06 over the 997 Carrera. And I would DEFINETELY choose the Z06 over the Cayman S.



    RC, your comparison has only one little drawback: you are comparing the Z06 and the Tip version of the 997TT.

    If you take the 997TT manual (i.e. same gear technology as in case of the Z06) the 997TT stands no chance. What does that tell us?

    The entire VTG blablabla is basically nonsense. The 997TT engine is nothing special. It delivers less performance than a cheap, US sportscar. What a shame

    Porsche failed.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, if you really like automatic gearboxs that much, you will enjoy knowing that GM applied for a patent for a 8 speed automatic. No joke. Guess what they will use it for.





    Jim, you'll be surprised what this "automatic" can do. Just wait for a first track review.



    Knowing (based on CF's post) that the manual will be quicker than Tip on the NBR and above 200kph I know enough. Track reviews will not change anything here, I am afraid

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, I trust you, I know the Turbos automatic is going to be good




    Porsche achieved a pretty spectacular and impressive setup with the new technology. They aren't stupid, they knew that people wouldn't understand why Tip is faster than manual. Everything has a reason...just wait and see the results and the explenation.



    Nobody claims they are stupid.

    I just claim that Porsche is either too small a company or too much focused on shareholder value to be in a position to offer state-of-the-art technology.

    As a customer who is asked to spend between 150k and 200k on one of their sportscars I do not accept that.

    Their 5-gear Tip is nothing more than a compromise. Or would you really claim that they decided to use this old gear box as it is technologically superior

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    I suppose RC is trying to underscore the best potential figures for each car, but I agree that manual vs. manual is a more fair comparison.

    Let's also not forget that the 997TT is likely to have an excellent launch from a dead stop. AWD + rear engine. Certainly this helps time to distance measurements, but it seems to affect time to speed measurements as well. Any feedback on how well the Z06 puts its power down at low speed? At ProSolo events, I know Elises consistently beat C5 Z06s off the line.

    In gear acceleration and flexibility matters more in the real world IMO. For autobahn driving, there seems to be less opportunity for launching.

    I am more impressed by the Z06 as time passes.

    - Justin

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    Let's also not forget that the 997TT is likely to have an excellent launch from a dead stop. AWD + rear engine. Certainly in time to distance measurements, but it seems to affect time to sped measurements as well.




    As an Autobahn user I am more concerned about the acceleration above 100kph: After reading the AMS article my conclusion is that the Z06 is faster anywhere above 100kph than 997TT (Tip or Manual)

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Nobody claims they are stupid.

    I just claim that Porsche is either too small a company or too much focused on shareholder value to be in a position to offer state-of-the-art technology.



    Unfortunately the latter is the case.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    MKSGR, I really want to know wich is quicker AFTER 120mph.

    Did AMS publish any Z06 data for accelleration after 200kph in their test? And also, what was the air temperature during their testing?

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    MKSGR, I really want to know wich is quicker AFTER 120mph.

    Did AMS publish any Z06 data for accelleration after 200kph in their test? And also, what was the air temperature during their testing?



    They did publish figures up to 200kph! I will post the figures tonight (as I do not have the test with me right now).

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    MKSGR, I really want to know wich is quicker AFTER 120mph.

    Did AMS publish any Z06 data for accelleration after 200kph in their test? And also, what was the air temperature during their testing?



    temperature in Germany in these weeks has been exceptionally cold, constantly between -2 and +6 Celsius. It has been snowing even tonight in Frankfurt, which is certainly not the coldes place in Germany. So to answer your real question, yes it was certainly cold during the test and probably performance will improve slightly if it goes up.

    btw. comments on the Z06-PSM where good. As AMS said the 500 hp are quite a handful if unleashed, but the two phase PSM works nicely. and they claim that the car has a honest setup-feeling and a clean driving stile is rewarded with enormously good track times...

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    I wish Watt would frequent these boards more often as he is one that dumped his GT2 in favor of the C6 Z06. I remember reading that he said it was no comparison when it came to raw speed... Z06 hands down.

    One problem the car has always had is that it doesn't bite down hard enough from stand still. I imagine the 997TT will beat it to 60-80mph but after that the Z06 should handle it.

    The fact that we can now place the performance of these two cars in the same sentence is sad.

    993TT... nothing could touch it under 200K.
    996TT... at first nothing could touch it... and later many cars could.
    997TT... from the get go... a $75,000 GM piece of crap can handle it.
    Thanks Porsche for ignoring your customers... looks like they will be hiring some more Toyota consultants again soon.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Hi,

    impressive Vette figures !

    Is there any reliable source for a certified crashtest of the C6/Z06 ?

    Cheers
    Tom

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    MKSGR, I really want to know wich is quicker AFTER 120mph.

    Did AMS publish any Z06 data for accelleration after 200kph in their test? And also, what was the air temperature during their testing?



    temperature in Germany in these weeks has been exceptionally cold, constantly between -2 and +6 Celsius. It has been snowing even tonight in Frankfurt, which is certainly not the coldes place in Germany. So to answer your real question, yes it was certainly cold during the test and probably performance will improve slightly if it goes up.





    I thought it was the other way around: the lower the temperature is, the better the engine efficiency is.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    Ziggy said:
    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    MKSGR, I really want to know wich is quicker AFTER 120mph.

    Did AMS publish any Z06 data for accelleration after 200kph in their test? And also, what was the air temperature during their testing?



    temperature in Germany in these weeks has been exceptionally cold, constantly between -2 and +6 Celsius. It has been snowing even tonight in Frankfurt, which is certainly not the coldes place in Germany. So to answer your real question, yes it was certainly cold during the test and probably performance will improve slightly if it goes up.





    I thought it was the other way around: the lower the temperature is, the better the engine efficiency is.



    That's only true for turbo-engines, since they get more cold air through their intercoolers. For NA-enginges a warmer weather is better for optimum performance.

    Re: Z06 - AMS test !

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Ziggy said:
    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    MKSGR, I really want to know wich is quicker AFTER 120mph.

    Did AMS publish any Z06 data for accelleration after 200kph in their test? And also, what was the air temperature during their testing?



    temperature in Germany in these weeks has been exceptionally cold, constantly between -2 and +6 Celsius. It has been snowing even tonight in Frankfurt, which is certainly not the coldes place in Germany. So to answer your real question, yes it was certainly cold during the test and probably performance will improve slightly if it goes up.





    I thought it was the other way around: the lower the temperature is, the better the engine efficiency is.



    That's only true for turbo-engines, since they get more cold air through their intercoolers. For NA-enginges a warmer weather is better for optimum performance.



    But I keep hearing the opposite about Formula1 (NA engines) : winter best testing times are not to be taken seriously because the low temperatures improve performance, whereas warm and humide weather is the worst condition for the engine ?

    P.S: Maybe I should ask the F1 expert Dr.Phil

     
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