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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:
    reginos:

    There was a significant degree of deregulation from the 1980s onwards in the spirit of absolute market capitalism that required as little state intervention as possible and promoted the ethos that only the market forces mattered.

    The US Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission in 2011 clearly stated that:

    "the crisis was avoidable and was caused by: widespread failures in financial regulation, including the Federal Reserve’s failure to stem the tide of  toxic mortgages; dramatic breakdowns in corporate governance including too many financial firms acting recklessly and taking on too much risk; an explosive mix of excessive borrowing and risk by households and Wall Street that put the financial system on a collision course with crisis; key policy makers ill prepared for the crisis, lacking a full understanding of the financial system they oversaw; and systemic breaches in accountability and ethics at all levels"

    These Wall Street people, bankers etc all operated in an unregulated  free-for-all with the State in the role of a bystander.

    I agree with the above.  But the root causes are the rule changes as approved or policies promoted by our Government, effected well beyond Reagan's time.  Most changes were signed into law by President Clinton.  The only one not (well beyond Reagan's time), was the Communities Reinvestment Act of 1977, signed by Jimmy Carter, but promoted further with teeth by Clinton.  The only de-regulation signed into law was the repeal of Glass-Steagal (signed into law by Clinton).

    The rules of the game were changed.  The players took advantage of the rule changes.  We should, at a minimum, blame the rule changers.

     

    I didn't know this legislation information. Thank you.

    The bottom line is that if someone is left unregulated this person, physical or legal will stray. Even in free economic systems a proper regulatory framework with strict monitoring and control are essential.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    SoCal Alan:
    reginos:

    I think NOx is a vehicle test parameter only in the USA.

     

    According to the link below, NOx been regulated for Diesel Engines in Europe, since Jan 2000 (Euro 3).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

    In the EU there is situation where NOx is not mentioned in any manufacturer literature as opposed to CO2 which must additionally be advertised on the windscreen of the car for sale (together with fuel consumption).

    Moreover, all emission-related taxation and the annual/biannual vehicle tests only take CO2 into account.

    So in some way NOx is officially kept below the line

    Take a guess why... Smiley NOx is directly hazardous to your health, while CO2 (in it's low concentrations) has more of an indirect health hazard through the environmental impact. If you have an asthmatic kid, you may know what I am talking about. Especially for kids with medical conditions like asthma, NOx is really a serious problem.

    For years, Diesel cars have been promoted as being environmentally friendly and "clean", especially due to their lower consumption and thus lower CO2 output. Even now, many people don't have a clue how hazardous Diesels actually are because they believed the manufacturers and their advertisement. Also, Diesel costs less in many countries, so people care more about money than their health. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I think in Europe the NOx effect has been deliberately overlooked or downplayed in official checkes, because the lower diesel consumption is important for households and businesses especially in a time when most economies are ailing. Governements don't want to load their economically weak voters further by penalizing diesel cars.

    Is this responsible? NO. The devious logic might be that people with asthma are less in numbers than those saving money from diesel fuel consumption!

    In the USA with cheap petrol I cannot imagine how a household would choose diesel so the authorities can be tough on diesel.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    I think in Europe the NOx effect has been deliberately overlooked or downplayed in official checkes, because the lower diesel consumption is important for households and businesses especially in a time when most economies are ailing. Governements don't want to load their economically weak voters further by penalizing diesel cars.

    I think you got exactly the point. Smiley

    Is this responsible? NO. The devious logic might be that people with asthma are less in numbers than those saving money from diesel fuel consumption!

    In the USA with cheap petrol I cannot imagine how a household would choose diesel so the authorities can be tough on diesel.

    There is indeed some sort of perfidious distinction between Diesels with a high NOx output and large SUVs with high fuel consumption and very high CO2 output, especially in the US where Diesel passenger cars aren't really very common but this is how it works in the US and VW knew that. 
    This is not much different from the whole Tesla craziness in the US, where people are buying electric cars for various reasons but actually are supporting the coal energy production which finally "fuels" their electric cars. So in the end, a Tesla may actually not be environmentally "clean" at all, even compared to large SUVs with higher fuel consumption.

    Perception is everything. Unfortunately.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:

    This is not much different from the whole Tesla craziness in the US, where people are buying electric cars for various reasons but actually are supporting the coal energy production which finally "fuels" their electric cars. So in the end, a Tesla may actually not be environmentally "clean" at all, even compared to large SUVs with higher fuel consumption.

    Perception is everything. Unfortunately.

    About electric car: It is impossible to get something for nothing or "There is no such thing as a free lunch"


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    RC:

    This is not much different from the whole Tesla craziness in the US, where people are buying electric cars for various reasons but actually are supporting the coal energy production which finally "fuels" their electric cars. So in the end, a Tesla may actually not be environmentally "clean" at all, even compared to large SUVs with higher fuel consumption.

    Perception is everything. Unfortunately.

    About electric car: It is impossible to get something for nothing or "There is no such thing as a free lunch"


    That´s exactly the point. When someone debates about the impact of commodity items in terms of use of resources, pollution we could have an endless discussion. I see an equally twisted logic justifying the gas consumption of a 2.5 ton truck in the light of the above emissions debate.Let´s just face it, as soon as we drive a 1.5, 2 or 2.5 ton vehicle to carry our err... 85 kg of body weight from A to B, we use more resources than actually necessary. Period. I see it as the luxury of our civilization to be able to do so but none of that is "necessary".

    Regarding the original topic, I do believe this whole subject is blown out of proportions. Apart from the devious decision to implement a specific mode for consumption driving cycles I personally believe that the extent the real-life values exceeded the test-rig values play a major part in the debate. If it would´ve been only 3 times as many, this whole media coverage would´ve not existed.Volkswagen will pay the price since they a. cheated and b. saved money per each car since they did not install all possible technologies to meet the limits in real-life scenarios. It will also most probably raise questions about the management style during that time and under the leadership of Winterkorn.

    The question will remain how the company will set itself up in the future. Apart from the initial efficiency program they intend to save another Billion Euro per year. Among suppliers it is requested to save up another three Billion per year. I spare my personal comment on that... Smiley


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    "Among suppliers it is requested to save up another three Billion per year. I spare my personal comment on that... Smiley"

    I expect that VW's suppliers will comment loudly and clearly on the idea that they should make a large contribution towards paying for VW's screw-up.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Volkswagen isn't being made a scapegoat by the EPA?

    From:  http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/14/epa-upping-game-amid-volkswagen-probe/

    While there's been a crush of attention on Volkswagen's scheming to circumvent emissions test, in the real world, it's these medium and heavy-duty trucks that are the bigger polluters. EPA emission models show nitrogen oxide from light-duty diesel cars and trucks contributes less than 0.1 percent of NOx pollution from on-road vehicles. Roughly 40 percent of NOx emissions come from heavy-duty diesel trucks, and the remainder comes from gasoline vehicles.

    So, directly from EPA source, all light-duty diesel cars and trucks contribute less than 0.1 percent of NOx pollution form on-road vehicles and the U.S. federal government, especially some members of Congress, is calling for almost the ruination of the company.  Even if Volkswagen is responsible for 50% to 75% of the diesel cars on the road, at most it is contributing less than 0.1 percent of the NOx emissions in the United States while the gross polluters get little scrutiny.

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    CGX car nut:

    Volkswagen isn't being made a scapegoat by the EPA?

    From:  http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/14/epa-upping-game-amid-volkswagen-probe/

    While there's been a crush of attention on Volkswagen's scheming to circumvent emissions test, in the real world, it's these medium and heavy-duty trucks that are the bigger polluters. EPA emission models show nitrogen oxide from light-duty diesel cars and trucks contributes less than 0.1 percent of NOx pollution from on-road vehicles. Roughly 40 percent of NOx emissions come from heavy-duty diesel trucks, and the remainder comes from gasoline vehicles.

    So, directly from EPA source, all light-duty diesel cars and trucks contribute less than 0.1 percent of NOx pollution form on-road vehicles and the U.S. federal government, especially some members of Congress, is calling for almost the ruination of the company.  Even if Volkswagen is responsible for 50% to 75% of the diesel cars on the road, at most it is contributing less than 0.1 percent of the NOx emissions in the United States while the gross polluters get little scrutiny. 

    The most interesting part of that extract is this:

    "Roughly 40 percent of NOx emissions come from heavy-duty diesel trucks, and the remainder comes from gasoline vehicles."

    I don't expect we'll be reading that quote much in the media any time soon. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:

    "Among suppliers it is requested to save up another three Billion per year. I spare my personal comment on that... Smiley"

    I expect that VW's suppliers will comment loudly and clearly on the idea that they should make a large contribution towards paying for VW's screw-up.  Smiley


    Of course they can comment loudly on that but you know better than me that they have not many "options" in that regard. Volkswagen is highly dependent on their suppliers and contractors and there is only that much you can save in the long run. I am very curious how the situation will change Volkswagen´s management style. And the position the unions are in. There is hope for change for the better but both will not change without a significant reason to do so.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    CGX car nut:

    Volkswagen isn't being made a scapegoat by the EPA?

    From:  http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/14/epa-upping-game-amid-volkswagen-probe/

    While there's been a crush of attention on Volkswagen's scheming to circumvent emissions test, in the real world, it's these medium and heavy-duty trucks that are the bigger polluters. EPA emission models show nitrogen oxide from light-duty diesel cars and trucks contributes less than 0.1 percent of NOx pollution from on-road vehicles. Roughly 40 percent of NOx emissions come from heavy-duty diesel trucks, and the remainder comes from gasoline vehicles.

    So, directly from EPA source, all light-duty diesel cars and trucks contribute less than 0.1 percent of NOx pollution form on-road vehicles and the U.S. federal government, especially some members of Congress, is calling for almost the ruination of the company.  Even if Volkswagen is responsible for 50% to 75% of the diesel cars on the road, at most it is contributing less than 0.1 percent of the NOx emissions in the United States while the gross polluters get little scrutiny. 

    The most interesting part of that extract is this:

    "Roughly 40 percent of NOx emissions come from heavy-duty diesel trucks, and the remainder comes from gasoline vehicles."

    I don't expect we'll be reading that quote much in the media any time soon. 


    Indeed. That is why I find the whole subject to be highly exaggerated. Especially when you compare it to Toyota´s and GM´s malfunctioning safety devices and ignition locks. 

    On the other hand, Volkswagen cheated and did so deliberately. One can debate what is more significant, initially cheating tests or failing to address and recall malfunctioning components in a reasonable timespan... Smiley


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Ferdie:
    fritz:

    "Among suppliers it is requested to save up another three Billion per year. I spare my personal comment on that... Smiley"

    I expect that VW's suppliers will comment loudly and clearly on the idea that they should make a large contribution towards paying for VW's screw-up.  Smiley


    Of course they can comment loudly on that but you know better than me that they have not many "options" in that regard. Volkswagen is highly dependent on their suppliers and contractors and there is only that much you can save in the long run. I am very curious how the situation will change Volkswagen´s management style. And the position the unions are in. There is hope for change for the better but both will not change without a significant reason to do so.

    I think they have significant reason for change now. Smiley  Let's hope that they'll have the necessary vision and be given the opportunity to change for the better. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    VW made a huge illegal gamble and lost. Doesn't matter what the other cars on the road contribute emissions wise. VW defrauded its US diesel  customers, lied to state and federal regulators, harmed its dealers, and now expects sympathy for the results of its transgressions. What arrogance they have, almost like a kid who kills his parents and then cries about being a orphan.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    JimFlat6:

    VW made a huge illegal gamble and lost. Doesn't matter what the other cars on the road contribute emissions wise. VW defrauded its US diesel  customers, lied to state and federal regulators, harmed its dealers, and now expects sympathy for the results of its transgressions. What arrogance they have, almost like a kid who kills his parents and then cries about being a orphan.

    Exactly, but then there is a recall with Honda, BMW, Toyota and others with the defective airbags. That is a purely business decision on how many people will be killed by the airbags before they replace them.


    --
    Porsche owner since 1975.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    IF those companies had prior knowledge that the airbags would be defective, concealed it, then got caught and lied tw ice  about fixing them, then that would d be a similar matter. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    CGX car nut:

    Volkswagen isn't being made a scapegoat by the EPA?

    From:  http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/14/epa-upping-game-amid-volkswagen-probe/

    While there's been a crush of attention on Volkswagen's scheming to circumvent emissions test, in the real world, it's these medium and heavy-duty trucks that are the bigger polluters. EPA emission models show nitrogen oxide from light-duty diesel cars and trucks contributes less than 0.1 percent of NOx pollution from on-road vehicles. Roughly 40 percent of NOx emissions come from heavy-duty diesel trucks, and the remainder comes from gasoline vehicles.

    So, directly from EPA source, all light-duty diesel cars and trucks contribute less than 0.1 percent of NOx pollution form on-road vehicles and the U.S. federal government, especially some members of Congress, is calling for almost the ruination of the company.  Even if Volkswagen is responsible for 50% to 75% of the diesel cars on the road, at most it is contributing less than 0.1 percent of the NOx emissions in the United States while the gross polluters get little scrutiny.

    Keep in mind that these numbers reflect the tiny percentage of light diesel cars or trucks sales in the US, and also what may be a high use of heavy diesel trucks due to the country's size.  EU should be quite different? 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    GM has actually killed 124 people and injured hundreds more  with a defective ignition switch that they knew was defective. While Caprio has inked a deal to star in and produce a  film about this VW diesel disaster,  he wouldn't touch a movie about GM because of its Obama bailout. So Germans, get ready for a silver screen smear job. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    vtrader:
    JimFlat6:

    VW made a huge illegal gamble and lost. Doesn't matter what the other cars on the road contribute emissions wise. VW defrauded its US diesel  customers, lied to state and federal regulators, harmed its dealers, and now expects sympathy for the results of its transgressions. What arrogance they have, almost like a kid who kills his parents and then cries about being a orphan.

    Exactly, but then there is a recall with Honda, BMW, Toyota and others with the defective airbags. That is a purely business decision on how many people will be killed by the airbags before they replace them.

    Unfortunately for VW, they've fallen afoul of the EPA, an agency with teeth, while GM and Takata have gotten in trouble with the NHTSA, an agency that doesn't really have much of an ability to engage in serious punitive action. I personally hope that the EPA will exercise restraint and consider the wider ramifications of any penalties they assess, and that the DoJ will confine themselves to any appropriate criminal prosecutions.

    All of these companies, of course, are also on the hook for the outcome of any private civil suits that are decided against them. And, unfortunately, VW ends up with a potentially much larger liability here as well. The number of people injured in the cases of GM and Takata is relatively small compared to the entire diesel customer base affected by VW's actions, and the sheer size of the class ads up to a much greater liability.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    JimFlat6:

    IF those companies had prior knowledge that the airbags would be defective, concealed it, then got caught and lied tw ice  about fixing them, then that would d be a similar matter. 

    I'm afraid so. Intent is the magic word here.

    VW will pay for this but I really hope that VW wakes up and starts a new path, a path which actually may benefit them in a couple of years and I am not only talking "classic" gasoline engines here. VW has the potential (and the resources) to build a high volume, low production cost electric car, so maybe this is their chance to prove what they are capable of.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    seems like undelivered 2016 with a different series engine are affected as well.....

     

    WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. regulators say they have a lot more questions for Volkswagen, triggered by the company's recent disclosure of additional suspect software in 2016 diesel models that potentially would help exhaust systems run cleaner during government tests.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    The new engines have a different tech ( not the original "cheat" software) which is under evaluation by agencies with a possibility of this latest one being declared illegal too.

    If the latest tech is illegal too, then I think it will be either "goodbye" VW as we've come to know it or most probably Herr Schaueble will have to find many tens of billions to salvage this automotive giant.

    "The software at issue makes a pollution-control catalyst heat up faster, improving performance of the device that separates smog-causing nitrogen oxide into nitrogen and oxygen gases.

    “This has the function of a warmup strategy which is subject to approval by the agencies,” said Jeannine Ginivan, a VW spokeswoman. “The agencies are currently evaluating this and Volkswagen is submitting additional information.”

    Automakers routinely place auxiliary emissions control devices on passenger vehicles, though they are required by law to disclose them as part of the process to receive the emissions certifications that are required to sell the cars.

    EPA’s McCabe wouldn not say if VW’s failure to disclose the software in its 2016 applications was illegal. “I don’t want to speak to any potential subjects of an enforcement activity,” she said.

    If VW was cheating a second time, that would probably mean higher fines against the company, Karl Brauer, a senior analyst at Kelley Blue Book.

    Regulators are “going to be even more angry than they already are”, Brauer said. “The punitive actions from the EPA are only going to get more aggressive.”

    The German automaker already faces up to $18bn in potential fines over the nearly half-million vehicles sold with the initial emissions-rigging software."

    On a different note IMO the VW management should face criminal charges at some point because what they've done goes beyond a petty swindle. It will affect the national economy and to an extent the EU economy too.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    This is a dumb question, but is it illegal to have software which enables emissions controls only during a government test cycle?

    In other words, is this a case of the Government(s) not having more real world tests, and they just got outsmarted by the auto manufacturers?


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Yes, I believe it is a lack of realistic tests and the manufacturers adopting to this. Pick any industry and you will see the same pattern.


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:

    This is a dumb question, but is it illegal to have software which enables emissions controls only during a government test cycle?

    In other words, is this a case of the Government(s) not having more real world tests, and they just got outsmarted by the auto manufacturers?

    Good question. The EU has already acted (actually before the scandal): From 2016 on, some real world driving tests are required. This may actually put a lot of turbo charged and Diesel operated engines under a lot of pressure, some may even disappear. Just imagine what happens if the German government suddenly tests cars at 180 or 200 km/h on the Autobahn. I bet that half of the cars on the market would fail miserably. Driving 180 km/h is a reality though in Germany, so they cannot ignore it.

    In the end, new technologies will be found and applied and the manufacturers will let the customer pay for them. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:

    This is a dumb question, but is it illegal to have software which enables emissions controls only during a government test cycle? ...

    Yes, in the US, a "defeat device", which is broadly defined as any mechanism that "switches on" and allows a vehicle to perform within limits during testing but is not active in normal operation is explicitly forbidden by law. That's the crux of VW's problem. Heavy equipment engine makers -- Caterpillar, Cummins, et al. -- already got in trouble for exactly this back in 1998, so it's not exactly an unprecedented situation, which makes it all the more extraordinary that VW would have done it.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    VW's troubles continue to worsen.

    The newly appointed head of US operations resigned not related to the cheat. He probably sees the handwriting on the wall.

    Germany has ordered VW to repair 2.5 million diesels in Germany.

    The US regulators are now considering criminal charges. A German newspaper has reported many VW managers were part of the cheat.

    And get this, apparently the cheat device is on 2016 models which now have been held back form the market.

    VW is in a serious, serious trouble.


    --

     

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Also over 8,5 Million cars recalled in Europe... Ouch.

    VW stock goes backwards again (not that I'm surprised...).


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    SoCal Alan:

    This is a dumb question, but is it illegal to have software which enables emissions controls only during a government test cycle?

    In other words, is this a case of the Government(s) not having more real world tests, and they just got outsmarted by the auto manufacturers?

    Good question. The EU has already acted (actually before the scandal): From 2016 on, some real world driving tests are required. This may actually put a lot of turbo charged and Diesel operated engines under a lot of pressure, some may even disappear. Just imagine what happens if the German government suddenly tests cars at 180 or 200 km/h on the Autobahn. I bet that half of the cars on the market would fail miserably. Driving 180 km/h is a reality though in Germany, so they cannot ignore it.

    In the end, new technologies will be found and applied and the manufacturers will let the customer pay for them. Smiley

    Another good reason for the German government to limit the autobahn speed to 130 km/h...


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Pentium:
    RC:
    SoCal Alan:

    This is a dumb question, but is it illegal to have software which enables emissions controls only during a government test cycle?

    In other words, is this a case of the Government(s) not having more real world tests, and they just got outsmarted by the auto manufacturers?

    Good question. The EU has already acted (actually before the scandal): From 2016 on, some real world driving tests are required. This may actually put a lot of turbo charged and Diesel operated engines under a lot of pressure, some may even disappear. Just imagine what happens if the German government suddenly tests cars at 180 or 200 km/h on the Autobahn. I bet that half of the cars on the market would fail miserably. Driving 180 km/h is a reality though in Germany, so they cannot ignore it.

    In the end, new technologies will be found and applied and the manufacturers will let the customer pay for them. Smiley

    Another good reason for the German government to limit the autobahn speed to 130 km/h...

    It won't happen...this would give the German car industry a(nother) huge blow. Maybe in a couple of years or with a different government.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
     

    Good question. The EU has already acted (actually before the scandal): From 2016 on, some real world driving tests are required. This may actually put a lot of turbo charged and Diesel operated engines under a lot of pressure, some may even disappear. ...

    This is actually a very interesting point. One could almost consider a turbocharger, particularly when applied to a small, low-power engine (not so much in the case of, say, a 911 Turbo) a "defeat device". The whole point of manufacturers going to TC engines is that it allows them to meet emissions and mileage standards, which have not, to date, been tested in real world conditions. Driven in real world conditions, most of these TC cars are not going to deliver anywhere near the mileage set in sedate test conditions, nor are emissions likely to be as tested. So, if the testing changes, what is this going to do to the strategies that nearly every automaker have adopted for meeting fuel economy standards?

    Is Hybrid technology going to, overnight, become more or less mandatory in order to meet fuel economy and emissions standards? (Although, plug-in hybrids and all-electric cars are, in a way, "defeat devices" themselves, since they avoid the emissions issue altogether by pushing it off on someone else, the electric utility companies.)


     
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