Crown

Hi guys, I'm going to possibly get rid of the ML63 AMG. Was a great car while it lasted, but the interior is really bland and the ride/seats are a bit too harsh for my liking after 3 years.

I went to drive the X5 ///M today while I was at the Rolls-Royce dealer. What a monster! I must say I am very impressed! The sound of the car is just phenomenal! Sounds like thunder going off repeatedly within milliseconds at wide open throttle! Really didn't expect that.

I am going to drive the Q7 V12 TDi next week, I am leaning towards the Q7 though. Reason being, that I have never had an Audi - even if the X5 ///M is faster, that's not a big deal for me. Prices are rather similar as well. What do you think?

PS. No X6 ///M, the car doesn't look all that great for me. No offense to X6 owners. Different strokes for different folks.

There is no discussion - no second of thinking - get the X5/6M. 

I had have a Cayenne turbo, I havs driven Cayenne turbo S, V12 tdi, ... and and and ..

The X6M is really the best, the engine, the gearbox, the sound - everything perfect.

AM

AM
www.aldo-yachting.de

ALDO:

There is no discussion - no second of thinking - get the X5/6M. 

I had have a Cayenne turbo, I havs driven Cayenne turbo S, V12 tdi, ... and and and ..

The X6M is really the best, the engine, the gearbox, the sound - everything perfect.

AM

You mean the outgoing Cayenne Turbo introduced in 2002. 

Don't forget there is a new one round the corner that will in all probability change the current status quo.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

Thanks for the input ALDO. It is appreciated. I too also have the Cayenne Turbo, I'm keeping it as it has no real value on resale or trade-in. I'm better off just driving it until the wheels come off

hey mike, i recall you getting a G55 ?

if you have that already, then i think the x5m is the perfect choice. audi q12 is a torque monster but so is the g55. for driveability and fun i think the x5m is just right.....

Thanks intouch! I appreciate a comments from an owner such as yourself

The G55 is still coming, I have asked them to postponed the build for a few months. I have heard local rumors circulating that MB South Africa, might bring the G-class as part of the standard range available over here in November this year. If that is the case I would make a huge saving on the price.

I remember on an comparison between Cayenne Turbo S, Audi Q7 V12 and X6M in the "Sportauto".
The X6M won clearly.
The Audi spend a lot of tourque but in a unharmonious manner and the diesel consumption is'nt that low. (14-17 l/100 km).
Go with the X5M y'll not regret this
 

Mike,

My vote is for the X5 M.

Mike i'd check the V12 TDI out for sure, it is just a piece of work that engine!

So how many cars do you currently have on order

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
_____________________________________________________________________
1984 BMW 323i 5spd 2.3L 141 hp (105 kW) More door. Black on black (parting out) 
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)

 I would vote for none...

Drive your current Cayenne Turbo...

Mike S:

Thanks intouch! I appreciate a comments from an owner such as yourself

The G55 is still coming, I have asked them to postponed the build for a few months. I have heard local rumors circulating that MB South Africa, might bring the G-class as part of the standard range available over here in November this year. If that is the case I would make a huge saving on the price.

i wish mercedes egypt would produce a g or an ml as well. here they only manufacture the glk 300 at the moment. soon to be glk 350 and they charge 90K $ for it.

bmw egypt only do the x3 3.0 at 90k $ too. talk about oligopoly.....

i might get a glk nevertheless, as i need a daily beater very soon that i can take offroad, spill drinks and chips in and allow passengers to smoke

Difficult decision, Mike.

Maybe this helps: the Q7 is/looks bigger than the X5 M and performance is also MUCH worse. From 0-200 kph, the Q7 V12 needs 4 seconds more than the X5 M, this already would be an argument against it.

Still: while shopping/looking for a new family car back in December, I looked at the Q7 V12 too. It has some advantages when you have kids and a lot of luggage but since I don't know your family status, it is difficult to give a good advice.

As a daily driver, the Q7 V12 should be great because of the monster torque and the low Diesel consumption compared to the higher fuel consumption of the X5 M. On the other hand, the X5 M definetely feels much sportier and lighter but it is mainly due to a different chassis setup.

The X5 M and the Q7 V12 both have the advantage of being "understatement" cars, they don't look as expensive as they are. In Germany, the Q7 is considered to be a luxury SUV like the Cayenne, so this would be a no-brainer over here if I had to choose between the BMW and the Audi.

You still have the Cayenne Turbo ? So why would you want another SUV ? The novelty factor kicking in ? 

I also don't know about rebates in your country. Not sure if money is a real issue for you but even if it isn't, I would still want the best bang for the buck if I could. The X5 M deal I got from my dealer was a pretty sweet deal, not even close to what my Audi dealer offered to me or actually any other brand dealer. If it is the same or similar in South Africa, going for the X5 M might be a good idea.

Good luck with your decision, life is tough.

Btw: I'm surprised to hear that you liked the exhaust/engine sound. When my X5 M arrives (hopefully anytime soon ), I'm going to evaluate the exhaust/engine sound again. So many people seem to like it, I need to pay more attention to it.

--
 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

@ RC you often mention the good deals BMW offer in Germany unlike other comparable brands. Even in a small market like here BMW and Mini have been having very good deals over the last year on most models.

Do BMW have a bigger problem shifting their products than say Mercedes,  Audi and other competitors

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

i believe that bmw can offer larger discounts on it's usa built models than on europe built models.

reginos:

@ RC you often mention the good deals BMW offer in Germany unlike other comparable brands. Even in a small market like here BMW and Mini have been having very good deals over the last year on most models.

Do BMW have a bigger problem shifting their products than say Mercedes,  Audi and other competitors

 

Over here the deals at BMW are more in the 6 to 8 % max .

MikeS : As you have already a Cayenne Turbo I would go for the Q7, as you mentioned you never had an Audi and this would be a nice way in. But, only if you get an interesting deal, as resale value might be difficult.

On SA roads this big SUV  could be great , even if not the fastest . As you say you have the TT for that + your speed traps are everywhere

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

 I would upgrade to the new Cayenne Turbo instead of having an old CTTS and a X5M.

intouch1:

Mike S:

Thanks intouch! I appreciate a comments from an owner such as yourself

The G55 is still coming, I have asked them to postponed the build for a few months. I have heard local rumors circulating that MB South Africa, might bring the G-class as part of the standard range available over here in November this year. If that is the case I would make a huge saving on the price.

i wish mercedes egypt would produce a g or an ml as well. here they only manufacture the glk 300 at the moment. soon to be glk 350 and they charge 90K $ for it.

bmw egypt only do the x3 3.0 at 90k $ too. talk about oligopoly.....

i might get a glk nevertheless, as i need a daily beater very soon that i can take offroad, spill drinks and chips in and allow passengers to smoke

 The best offroad car for spilling drinks and making a mess in is the toyota FJ cruiser. i remember you mentioned the land cruiser as an option. the FJ is very poplar here and one of my favorite things about it is that you can literally open the doors and hose down the interior, its waterproof !! 

But for Mike i put my vote on X5M, the Q7 V12 is mainly a development in the engine compartment but the X5M has extensive work on it that makes it so much more than an X5 with a big engine.

I was driving the Audi V12 before - torgque is impressive, but handling always let you feel the size of the car. I dont know the X5M, but I know the X5 in all variations and especially with the dynamic ride. This is no comparrision worth at all. The BMW is lightweight and handles like a sports car, versus that the Audi seem to be a truck!

A friend has a 911 Turbo Convertible and also the Audi V12 truck. He is not happy with the V12 from the handling at all. He thinks about making the move to the new Cayenne Turbo.

This is why I love Rennteam! Thanks for the feedback everyone, it is really appreciated and all your points have been noted. I will keep them in the back of my mind when I go for the drive this afternoon  

reginos:

@ RC you often mention the good deals BMW offer in Germany unlike other comparable brands. Even in a small market like here BMW and Mini have been having very good deals over the last year on most models.

Do BMW have a bigger problem shifting their products than say Mercedes,  Audi and other competitors

 

BMW is pretty well known in Germany for huge rebates on their models, incl. those built in Germany. Especially the lease offers are mostly impressive compared to other companies.

I also had the feeling that Mercedes isn't far behind (lease offer) when I inquired about that Mercedes C63 AMG I mentioned.

Just do the math: if a business man wants to buy a BMW 7 series or a Panamera and although the value of the car is practically the same, the lease offer from BMW is often 40-50% better than the Porsche lease offer. What car do you think does he choose ? This is a no-brainer.

I love Porsche but Porsche Financial definetely needs a new approach towards customers, otherwise they're going to have less and less customers. Many Porsche dealers over here are already working with other lease companies but even these offers are usually far behind the BMW lease offers.

No, I don't think that BMW has problems to move cars, Bavaria is FULL of BMWs and the quality seems to be pretty good too.

How does BMW do it ? I have no clue. My suspicion is that BMW already counts in the lease/rebate offers into their prices. Of course they profit from manufacturing the X5/X6 and the new X3 in the US but this isn't the whole story. They definetely have a lower profit than Porsche but they move much more cars.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

reginos:

@ RC you often mention the good deals BMW offer in Germany unlike other comparable brands. Even in a small market like here BMW and Mini have been having very good deals over the last year on most models.

Do BMW have a bigger problem shifting their products than say Mercedes,  Audi and other competitors

 

 

BMW is pretty well known in Germany for huge rebates on their models, incl. those built in Germany. Especially the lease offers are mostly impressive compared to other companies.

I also had the feeling that Mercedes isn't far behind (lease offer) when I inquired about that Mercedes C63 AMG I mentioned.

Just do the math: if a business man wants to buy a BMW 7 series or a Panamera and although the value of the car is practically the same, the lease offer from BMW is often 40-50% better than the Porsche lease offer. What car do you think does he choose ? This is a no-brainer.

I love Porsche but Porsche Financial definetely needs a new approach towards customers, otherwise they're going to have less and less customers. Many Porsche dealers over here are already working with other lease companies but even these offers are usually far behind the BMW lease offers.

No, I don't think that BMW has problems to move cars, Bavaria is FULL of BMWs and the quality seems to be pretty good too.

How does BMW do it ? I have no clue. My suspicion is that BMW already counts in the lease/rebate offers into their prices. Of course they profit from manufacturing the X5/X6 and the new X3 in the US but this isn't the whole story. They definetely have a lower profit than Porsche but they move much more cars.

 

What you say makes a lot of sense.However, if Porsche economics are such that in order to have the desired financial result from around 100.000 units they need the current gross profit margin of 10%+, then they may not have too much room for rebates.Unless of course dealers give part of their own % back and be even more squeezed themselves.

IMO Porsche as an independent entity had huge overheads and development costs that couldn't be spread efficiently on the (relatively) low volumes. That's an area where being part of the VW Group could help.

There is a strong rumor that the VW Bank will "facilitate" Porsche lease offers, which could mean that Porsche finally can attract more customers by offering more attractive lease offers.

Let's pray... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

I also had the feeling that Mercedes isn't far behind (lease offer) when I inquired about that Mercedes C63 AMG I mentioned.

 

yep - I confirm that one! Mercedes is out of range as Porsche is!

RC:

There is a strong rumor that the VW Bank will "facilitate" Porsche lease offers, which could mean that Porsche finally can attract more customers by offering more attractive lease offers.

Let's pray... 

 VW FS is one of my clients... more I cant say!

Heard today from the dealer in Australia that Mercedes are going to use the 570 bhp SLS engine in the last version of the ML 63 against the X5M, X6M, new Porsche Cayenne Turbo, Q7 V12 and the new Range Rover, and it will be the most drivable and tractable, naturally aspirated 4WD in the market and around 30% cheaper than the competition? Any one else heard this?

How can it be 30% cheaper than the X5M/X6M ?  The current ML63 AMG is already more expensive, at least over here in Germany.

The ONLY thing I can imagine is a special version of the ML63 AMG with the SLS engine for at least 30% MORE than the current price tag.

The next gen ML AMG gets the twin turbo charged engine.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

How can it be 30% cheaper than the X5M/X6M ?  The current ML63 AMG is already more expensive, at least over here in Germany.

The ONLY thing I can imagine is a special version of the ML63 AMG with the SLS engine for at least 30% MORE than the current price tag.

The next gen ML AMG gets the twin turbo charged engine.

Australia has some pretty high taxes, so perhaps the claim could have an element of truth to it, depending on the criteria by which the cars are taxed and the pre-tax vehicle price in Australia.

No way this could be true.  My AMG guy would have called me by now if it is.  His dealership is also a factory owned dealership so they have the latest info.  If it is true though, I would be tempted to get one!

When I went to my local Mercedes dealer (factory rep, the dealership which "hosts" all those Mercedes mules ) to get some information about the C63 AMG, they had a brandnew ML63 AMG 10th Anniversary Edition in the showroom. Very nice looking SUV but when I saw the price tag of 166000 (!) EUR, I almost wet my pants out of shock.

Of course the dealer offered a substantial rebate on this car but the price tag was still more than 40000 EUR higher than on the X5 M. 

So I highly doubt that Mercedes AMG would offer a ML63 AMG with SLS engine for a price tag below that Anniversary Edition model, it just doesn't make ANY sense.

I don't say that a ML with SLS won't be available, everything is possible. I just think that the price tag of this car will be beyond good and evil. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

I agree.  I am not saying for one sec that there won't be a SLS engine ML.  I am saying there is no way it would be 30% cheaper than X5M!  Maybe 30% cheaper than the Q7 V12...