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    The 960 will be 10 years too late

    I've been thinking about my Boxster GTS recently. I think I'm going to retire it from DD duty. I joined rennteam back in 2004 when I was trying to decide between a 997 and a 987. Ultimately, I just never found the rear engine platform to be as interesting dynamically. I know that most RTers feel differently, but there it is. I made my compromise with the lower power output of the 987 S, but hoped Porsche would bring something to market that offered more performance, even if it required the 911's higher margin. Sadly, it never materialzed. Of course the Carrera GT and 918 were released, but neither were in the segment I needed, a mid engine car that one could drive everyday, everywhere. When the R8 appeared I didn't understand why this wasn't a Porsche product, as it could have easily been a higher margin sale as a Porsche. I now know about the internal politics with Piech, but it seemed that Porsche was trying to force me into the 911 as the step forward from the Boxster, and that never felt right to me. As a result I drove my 987S for 10 years! I then bought my 981 GTS, and it is a very good car, but it's not a large enough improvement for the 10 years I waited.

    I still enjoy cars in a certain sense, but I think Porsche failed to keep me engaged, perhaps seeing me as 'just a Boxster customer.'

    Maybe this would have happened anyway, but my intellectual interest, my passion if you will, has wandered to other topics and I think that's gone for good. I'm going to have the few nicks and scrapes on my car cleaned up, drive it a little on the weekends, but most of my DD duties will be with my bicycle, my feet, Uber or perhaps I'll buy something very practical for when the weather is terrible. What I'm trying to say is, Porsche doesn't just need to see Ferrari, Mclaen and AMG as their competitors, but their customers overall level of engagement in cars vs other interests must also be considered, Fortunately, Rennteam is less about about cars now than it was in 2004 also.

    The 960, no matter how good it may eventually be, is too late, even if might not have been too little.


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    I am with you 100%.. this rumor is so old now and we still have not seen a proper new modern sports car. Instead Porsche went for the $ and pumped out the Cayenne, Panamera and Macans enlightened The VW group choose instead to put out the R8 which is still an Audi angry IMO, Porsche missed the opportunity for both the 960 and 928 (Panamera coupe), combined these would have sold, alas not as high volume but I bet they could have squeezed more $ out of them, especially if you factor brand image into the equation. 


    --

    1986 BMW 325i Cabrio Alpine Weiss/Black Leather - German Spec 
    2006 Mercedes-Benz CLS 500 Black/Black Leather 

    Ex: ''91 BMW 535i, '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

     


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    Porsche is just one brand, many of us have moved on long time ago...


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    SciFrog point taken, maybe I should have moved on to Ferrari. But I really can't see myself driving a 458 or 488 everyday. This is something I *have* done with my 987 and 981. I like to think if Porsche built a higher level mid engine product I'd have driven it daily too. But maybe not. The 'moving on' I'll be doing is away from cars altogether. I've got a few other things I'd like to do that I find more intriguing than anything car related, but it didn't have to be this way.


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    Why do you think I switched to a R8? Smiley

    Yes, the 960 is too late. I already told this to Porsche (up to the highest level, believe me) and they know. I assume many other customers told them as well.

    Apparently they need to wait for using the new Porsche platform to build the 960 and this platform will be used for the next generation Huracan and R8 (if there will be a next generation) as well.

    The Huracan facelift is coming 2018, the R8 facelift probably a bit later (2019). So I doubt that a 960 will show up before 2021 but this is just a wild guess. The car is coming, the question is only: When?! yes Porsche could put the 960 in 2020 on the market, using their own platform and the Huracan/R8 could use the platform later. Not sure if the VW Group leadership will go with such a timeline but it would make sense. I still believe however that Porsche has enough on their plate right now, especially with the 992 and Mission E coming, also the next generation Cayenne (end of this year).


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    Thanks RC. I think Atzpotsche is right, they had other priorities.


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    mcdelaug:

    Thanks RC. I think Atzpotsche is right, they had other priorities.

    Btw: The R8 with magnetic ride (adaptive suspension) is an excellent daily driver. Smiley

    I can't even imagine where the R8 would be if Porsche would have taken care of development. So far, it seems that Audi couldn't care less about the R8, which is not only surprising but also weird. A few tweaks here and there and the R8 would make the lives of many other competitors out there miserable. Apparently, this is exactly the point and something Audi doesn't want, for whatever super weird reason. Maybe Lamborghini is more important to them from a marketing point of view. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    Hey mcdelaug,

    I don't understand why you don't want to try a 911 for your driving needs?  if you don't like it, just trade it in.

    What can a mid engine car offer you for street driving that a rear engine car cannot?  on the track, I actually prefer my rear engined RS.  Guess I have developed my driving skill to suit the car.

    I don't mind the delay of this 960 at all.  Even if it is out and I may get one, it will not be my daily driver.  911 is a perfect daily driver.


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
     


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    Targa Tim:

    Hey mcdelaug,

    I don't understand why you don't want to try a 911 for your driving needs?  if you don't like it, just trade it in.

    What can a mid engine car offer you for street driving that a rear engine car cannot?  on the track, I actually prefer my rear engined RS.  Guess I have developed my driving skill to suit the car.

    I don't mind the delay of this 960 at all.  Even if it is out and I may get one, it will not be my daily driver.  911 is a perfect daily driver.

    Try a R8 (I am serious) or a Huracan or even a Ferrari 488. Maybe even a 570S would do the trick. Just feels differently, drives differently, sounds differently. This isn't about speed, the new 991 GT2 RS will be very fast, it is about the emotional part. The 911 is a great sportscar but it doesn't provide that special feel of a R8, Huracan, Aventador or even 488. It just isn't there, no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    RC:
    Targa Tim:

    Hey mcdelaug,

    I don't understand why you don't want to try a 911 for your driving needs?  if you don't like it, just trade it in.

    What can a mid engine car offer you for street driving that a rear engine car cannot?  on the track, I actually prefer my rear engined RS.  Guess I have developed my driving skill to suit the car.

    I don't mind the delay of this 960 at all.  Even if it is out and I may get one, it will not be my daily driver.  911 is a perfect daily driver.

    Try a R8 (I am serious) or a Huracan or even a Ferrari 488. Maybe even a 570S would do the trick. Just feels differently, drives differently, sounds differently. This isn't about speed, the new 991 GT2 RS will be very fast, it is about the emotional part. The 911 is a great sportscar but it doesn't provide that special feel of a R8, Huracan, Aventador or even 488. It just isn't there, no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    sounds good RC, give me something to look forward to Smiley


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
     


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    Maybe you weren't in the mood, maybe you didn't use the right driving mode, I don't know or maybe you are just (still) addicted to the 911 (I had this phase too for over a decade Smiley). The 991.1 GT3 RS is a very special car, no doubt and not even close to my 991 GTS experience but it still is a 911...with the same interior and basically the same steering and drive feel, even if everything is stiffer and more direct/involving. 

    The R8 can be an excellent daily driver if you drive in Comfort mode, true but then it isn't really much fun. The R8 is fun when driving in Dynamic mode and shifting manually. Never enjoyed any of my former cars that much. 

    I think I changed after my disappointment with the 991.1 Turbo S...or I just evolved into a different direction. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    or I just evolved into a different direction. Smiley

    That direction being 50 yrs plus now bud. V10 = Hairy chest, you should be proud Smiley..


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    throt:
    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    or I just evolved into a different direction. Smiley

    That direction being 50 yrs plus now bud. V10 = Hairy chest, you should be proud Smiley..

    Smiley Smiley Trust me, I upgraded... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    RC:
    throt:
    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    or I just evolved into a different direction. Smiley

    That direction being 50 yrs plus now bud. V10 = Hairy chest, you should be proud Smiley..

    Smiley Smiley Trust me, I upgraded... Smiley

    You will upgrade to the new facelift. Its a done deal right indecision..


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    throt:
    RC:
    throt:
    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    or I just evolved into a different direction. Smiley

    That direction being 50 yrs plus now bud. V10 = Hairy chest, you should be proud Smiley..

    Smiley Smiley Trust me, I upgraded... Smiley

    You will upgrade to the new facelift. Its a done deal right indecision..

    Only if I get a good offer and if it is worth it. There could be a R8 GT special edition model based on the new Huracan Performante but I think this would be the wrong car for me. I rather prefer the rear wheel steering of the facelift (2019?).

    The big question remains however: Will the facelift sound as good as the current car or not? If not, no facelift for me.

    Then, I could be interested in the R8 GT. Smiley (if I can get one)


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    mcdelaug:

    I've been thinking about my Boxster GTS recently. I think I'm going to retire it from DD duty. I joined rennteam back in 2004 when I was trying to decide between a 997 and a 987. Ultimately, I just never found the rear engine platform to be as interesting dynamically. I know that most RTers feel differently, but there it is. I made my compromise with the lower power output of the 987 S, but hoped Porsche would bring something to market that offered more performance, even if it required the 911's higher margin. Sadly, it never materialzed. Of course the Carrera GT and 918 were released, but neither were in the segment I needed, a mid engine car that one could drive everyday, everywhere. When the R8 appeared I didn't understand why this wasn't a Porsche product, as it could have easily been a higher margin sale as a Porsche. I now know about the internal politics with Piech, but it seemed that Porsche was trying to force me into the 911 as the step forward from the Boxster, and that never felt right to me. As a result I drove my 987S for 10 years! I then bought my 981 GTS, and it is a very good car, but it's not a large enough improvement for the 10 years I waited.

    I still enjoy cars in a certain sense, but I think Porsche failed to keep me engaged, perhaps seeing me as 'just a Boxster customer.'

    Maybe this would have happened anyway, but my intellectual interest, my passion if you will, has wandered to other topics and I think that's gone for good. I'm going to have the few nicks and scrapes on my car cleaned up, drive it a little on the weekends, but most of my DD duties will be with my bicycle, my feet, Uber or perhaps I'll buy something very practical for when the weather is terrible. What I'm trying to say is, Porsche doesn't just need to see Ferrari, Mclaen and AMG as their competitors, but their customers overall level of engagement in cars vs other interests must also be considered, Fortunately, Rennteam is less about about cars now than it was in 2004 also.

    The 960, no matter how good it may eventually be, is too late, even if might not have been too little.

    Last Friday I took my Boxster GTS into my local Porsche dealership for its two year service. They very generously loaned me an almost brand new 991/2 Carrera S. I was massively impressed with it, based on my drives in 991/1 this car is a step change improvement, feels almost like a completely new model. Very difficult to fault. The all new turbocharged engine whilst more muted than before still has that lovely flat six growl, performance much stronger than the previous naturally aspirated engine. PDK even better than before, the electric steering both quicker and improved feel. Ride comfort exemplary. The loan car was heavily equipped, but I was unimpressed with the Burmeister system, never worth the huge extra cost over Bose IMO. 

    Porsche have really moved the game on with the "everyday sports car". Even with a very generous allowance for our Boxster I couldn't financially justify the cost to change but I was very sorely tempted, which I was not interested with 991/1 which I found surprisingly boring.


    --

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Volvo V40 D4 R Design daily drive


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    ...with the same interior and basically the same steering and drive feel, even if everything is stiffer and more direct/involving. 

    The same can be said about your R8 and any modern Audi.


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    bluelines:
    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    ...with the same interior and basically the same steering and drive feel, even if everything is stiffer and more direct/involving. 

    The same can be said about your R8 and any modern Audi.

    So you never drove the R8 V10 Plus? Now I know. Smiley Smiley

    The R8 is a Huracan in disguise, this is something many people still don't realize. Even the steering setup (now the 2016 and newer cars got the same 2nd gen Dynamic Steering as the R8) and magnetic ride setup are the same, believe it or not. Only ABS setup was a bit different due to the tires used (Trofeo R is certified for the Huracan, not for the R8 which gets only the Cup 2). The R8 is not more comfortable or less stiff than the Huracan. Chassis setup and engine setup are the same, it made it easier for them. Even the engine software programming is basically the same, with some minor differences in the upper speed range since the R8 reaches a slightly higher end speed. The Huracan is only lighter because it has less dampening material, slightly lighter plastic materials in the interior and no B&O sound system.

    Stabilizers, dampers, etc. are all the same, over 70% same parts (my R8/Lamborghini parts guy even claims over 80%, which is hard to believe).

    You already knew that, right?! Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    RC:
    bluelines:
    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    ...with the same interior and basically the same steering and drive feel, even if everything is stiffer and more direct/involving. 

    The same can be said about your R8 and any modern Audi.

    So you never drove the R8 V10 Plus? Now I know. Smiley Smiley

    Do I have to repeat myself, buddy..

    V10 = Hairy Chest...indecision....


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    RC:
    bluelines:
    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    ...with the same interior and basically the same steering and drive feel, even if everything is stiffer and more direct/involving. 

    The same can be said about your R8 and any modern Audi.

    So you never drove the R8 V10 Plus? Now I know. Smiley Smiley

    I did. It had the same steering wheel as our S3, but I kept repeating to myself "it is really a Lambo" Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    bluelines:
     

    I did. It had the same steering wheel as our S3, but I kept repeating to myself "it is really a Lambo" Smiley

    And I thought you are a real car enthusiast and know your stuff. Smiley Well, sometimes even I am wrong. Smiley Smiley

    Not sure what the look of a steering wheel has to do with driving and steering feel but... Smiley

    Oh...they really look the same. Not. Oh well, they have the same four rings. Smiley

    DSC_0133.jpg
    3-Audi-R8-V10-Plus-Lenkrad.jpg


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    bluelines:
    RC:
    bluelines:
    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
    no matter which 911 you take. The emotional part is on a completely different level.

    I tried an R8 plus back to back with my RS . I was more emotionally involved in the RS then the R8 . It felt more special to drive . The R8 felt more mike an excellent DD .  Compared to a non GT Porsche, I agree, R8 feels more special by quite a margin 

    ...with the same interior and basically the same steering and drive feel, even if everything is stiffer and more direct/involving. 

    The same can be said about your R8 and any modern Audi.

    So you never drove the R8 V10 Plus? Now I know. Smiley Smiley

    I did. It had the same steering wheel as our S3.

    Smiley . Now that really is hair pulling, bud....Smiley..


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    They both use the same fuel, so maybe bluelines is onto something here... 

    indecision


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    throt:

    Smiley . Now that really is hair pulling, bud....Smiley..

    It came off. Only a chest wig SmileySmiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    bluelines:
    throt:

    Smiley . Now that really is hair pulling, bud....Smiley..

    It came off. Only a chest wig SmileySmiley

    Must have been an Audi V10 option when Christian took out the megs deal lease Smiley..

    How did the perm go at weekend Smiley...


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    RC:
    bluelines:
     

    I did. It had the same steering wheel as our S3, but I kept repeating to myself "it is really a Lambo" Smiley

    And I thought you are a real car enthusiast and know your stuff. Smiley Well, sometimes even I am wrong. Smiley Smiley

    Not sure what the look of a steering wheel has to do with driving and steering feel but... Smiley

    Oh...they really look the same. Not. Oh well, they have the same four rings. Smiley

    DSC_0133.jpg

    Wrong S3 model year and steering wheel, but good try Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    RC:

    They both use the same fuel, so maybe bluelines is onto something here... 

    indecision

    Smiley,,, you have a point there Smiley...


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    bluelines:
    RC:
    bluelines:
     

    I did. It had the same steering wheel as our S3, but I kept repeating to myself "it is really a Lambo" Smiley

    And I thought you are a real car enthusiast and know your stuff. Smiley Well, sometimes even I am wrong. Smiley Smiley

    Not sure what the look of a steering wheel has to do with driving and steering feel but... Smiley

    Oh...they really look the same. Not. Oh well, they have the same four rings. Smiley

    DSC_0133.jpg

    Wrong S3 model year and steering wheel, but good try Smiley

     

    OK, here we go...2017.  The same? Smiley The form is the same, right. Smiley

    2017-03-08_10-54-25.jpg


    14889668101953-Audi-R8-V10-Plus-Lenkrad.jpg


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The 960 will be 10 years too late

    . Here we go. The clash of the hairy ones.....indecision....


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


     
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